The myth of giants

[JCC]

Finally, an interesting and accurate article on the (non-existent) need to establish the super heavyweight category and its historical implications.
Read on a new Italian website, which also has an English version.

https://boxepunch.com/en/top-en/point-o ... of-giants/

[pound per pound]

Finally, an interesting and accurate article on the (non-existent) need to establish the super heavyweight category and its historical implications.
Read on a new Italian website, which also has an English version.

https://boxepunch.com/en/top-en/point-o ... of-giants/

Interesting take, but Usyk is a 6'3" 225 pound man.  Historically speaking he is himself a giant of sorts is he not?    I get why he was cast as David in the article but it is a poor job of casting  and the giants he has  beaten are not on Lewis or Klitschko level.  Has not beat someone as good as Bowe either.  

He has beaten Fury and Joshua. Two B + heavies at best.  These are significant wins, but Usyk is a bit of a boxing version of a unicorn.

That is to say a southpaw with great stamina. True 15 round stamina.  He has fast feet and a high boxing IQ too. A very good boxer, there has never been one like him at heavyweight.   If was as 6'1" tall, 200 pounds and less tale of the tape, he would not be as dominate at heavyweight. David would a Rocky Marcino sized heavyweight.

[Controversial]

The HW division has grown over time, you only had to be over 175 at one point to be a HW. Can you imagine a 180lb fighter being HW champ now? Foreman was always described as being a big HW in the 1970s yet was 6'3" and 225lbs so similar dimensions to Usyk. There a weight divisions for a reason, the CW's of today would have been described as being big HWs in the 1940-1960s. Usyk is just a very good and experienced fighter, skill always plays a big part but it also has it's limitations. Canelo is skilled but he can only go so far up in weight before he'd get battered as he would be too small.

[margaret thatcher]

historically 6'3 220 usyk is actually on the bigger side of heavies

jack johnson used to be called a giant being about 6 feet 185 pounds. although i guess he was a giant compared to the 155-170 pounders he beat. he won the hw title from a guy 5'7 167 pounds on fight day!

ability defo can overcome greater size, weve seen it so many times, obviously with usyk -aj, usyk- fury recently. but in general the more size difference the more ability gap there needs to be for the smaller guy to win. there is variation of course when you get into extremes. eg someone 6'6 250 becoming 6'8 280 doesnt necessarily make them more effective......the super giants are often clunky as hell and not even punchers

[Sweet Dick Willie]

How much has Fury weighed at his heaviest by the way?

[margaret thatcher]

fury was 245 for a few fights, including wlad, to slightly over 277 for ngannou

[Sweet Dick Willie]

Cheers!

[Contendeh]

He is 225lbs because of modern methods of putting on weight.

Do people honestly think Gene Tunney would be 190lbs if fighting today and campaigning at Heavy?

[SportsRatings]

Usyk surely puts to rest the idea that Ali wouldn't be competitive in today's sport. He's about the same size as Ali. Not long ago some ppl were saying the Klitschkos would destroy Ali, it wouldn't even be close, he's too small, how could he possibly compete? Now with Usyk beating the top "giants" pretty easily, we can see how a smaller fighter can get it done.

But it's true fighters are getting bigger, and I don't think Usyk's wins necessarily mean that Bridgerweight (or equivalent) will never be a useful thing.

Note that all the giants appeared on the scene in the 1990s and beyond. Before that, most giants were slow and lumbering, and everyone over 6-6 who was coordinated was skinny like Julius Erving. Gosh what changed in the 90s+, that enabled giants to put on so much muscle unlike before? I think it's possible the giants era is really the PED era, nothing more.

[pound per pound]

historically 6'3 220 usyk is actually on the bigger side of heavies

jack johnson used to be called a giant being about 6 feet 185 pounds. although i guess he was a giant compared to the 155-170 pounders he beat. he won the hw title from a guy 5'7 167 pounds on fight day!

ability defo can overcome greater size, weve seen it so many times, obviously with usyk -aj, usyk- fury recently. but in general the more size difference the more ability gap there needs to be for the smaller guy to win. there is variation of course when you get into extremes. eg someone 6'6 250 becoming 6'8 280 doesnt necessarily make them more effective......the super giants are often clunky as hell and not even punchers

Good post. One point.

There has not been many super giants for the case study. Zhang may qualify and he hits very hard. Who else is there at 280+?

Like you said, 185 pounds used to be called a giants at the turn of the century. Today the average weight of the ranked top 10 at Box Rec is about 6'5" tall, 250 pounds.

[Boxingguru75]

Don’t agree Fury and Joshua are B+ fighters. To me clearly A and would fair well against anyone. Second never for a Super Heavy division. Just an excuse to add more worthless titles (see Bridgerweight). First time I saw Usyk he was a 165 pound amateur. Always been so special

[pound per pound]

Don’t agree Fury and Joshua are B+ fighters. To me clearly A and would fair well against anyone. Second never for a Super Heavy division. Just an excuse to add more worthless titles (see Bridgerweight). First time I saw Usyk he was a 165 pound amateur. Always been so special

Both Fury and Joshua lack grade A wins and a good resume of victories. They beat a collection of old men, out shape guys, and USA hype job as their best opponents. As I said they are B+ champions at best. Joshua has fought better opposition of the two, but they are clearly not grade A champions. That would be Lewis or Klitschko.

[dempseyfire]

Finally, an interesting and accurate article on the (non-existent) need to establish the super heavyweight category and its historical implications.
Read on a new Italian website, which also has an English version.

https://boxepunch.com/en/top-en/point-o ... of-giants/

Interesting take, but Usyk is a 6'3" 225 pound man.  Historically speaking he is himself a giant of sorts is he not?    I get why he was cast as David in the article but it is a poor job of casting  and the giants he has  beaten are not on Lewis or Klitschko level.  Has not beat someone as good as Bowe either.  

He has beaten Fury and Joshua. Two B + heavies at best.  These are significant wins, but Usyk is a bit of a boxing version of a unicorn.

That is to say a southpaw with great stamina. True 15 round stamina.  He has fast feet and a high boxing IQ too. A very good boxer, there has never been one like him at heavyweight.   If was as 6'1" tall, 200 pounds and less tale of the tape, he would not be as dominate at heavyweight. David would a Rocky Marcino sized heavyweight.

People always conflate body size with simply height and weight. Usyk is not a natural 220 lber; he has to follow a strict diet and workout regimen to get to that weight healthily. He's nearly 40 years old and could still make cruiser. He fought at 165 as old as 20. George Foreman OTOH was 6'3, 218 when he won the title but have him stand next to Usyk and he'd look like the much bigger man.

I remember people saying this about Chris Byrd ("he's the same size as Sonny Liston") and it drove me bananas. The guy literally force-fed himself to get above 200 lbs to the point that he developed debilitating pain in his feet. Whereas Liston probably walked around at 230-240 sans any gut or flab and trained down to a trim 210-215.

[margaret thatcher]

usyk cut weight to make cruiser and would be in the ring around 212, ripped. he bulked up a bit to get to 223 but he's not far off that weight naturally. 6'3 210-215ish, 78 inch reach.....still good hw size histrocially. he boxed for years at heavy and super heavy in the ams before going pro. his final fights were at shw in the wsb. 165 he was a teenager, by his early 20s he was hw and shw.

bryd is a smaller case as he boxed in the 160s and low 170s even at 22/23, and was also shorter in height and reach. he was listed at 6 feet one point in his career, and also 6'1, which i believe more than him being 6'2

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Usyk surely puts to rest the idea that Ali wouldn't be competitive in today's sport. He's about the same size as Ali. Not long ago some ppl were saying the Klitschkos would destroy Ali, it wouldn't even be close, he's too small, how could he possibly compete? Now with Usyk beating the top "giants" pretty easily, we can see how a smaller fighter can get it done.

But it's true fighters are getting bigger, and I don't think Usyk's wins necessarily mean that Bridgerweight (or equivalent) will never be a useful thing.

Note that all the giants appeared on the scene in the 1990s and beyond. Before that, most giants were slow and lumbering, and everyone over 6-6 who was coordinated was skinny like Julius Erving. Gosh what changed in the 90s+, that enabled giants to put on so much muscle unlike before? I think it's possible the giants era is really the PED era, nothing more.

- PED accusations a dime a dozen, sometimes two dozen on sale.

Usyk a natural Olympic Gold Medal 200 lb Heavy passing extensive modern drug screening, whereas Ali a skinny LightHeavy who was several fights into his pro career before breaking 200lb Heavy.

Weight classes exist for a reason, ie a fair sizing matchup, the reason feathers don’t fight heavies, ect…duh!!!

[1664615]

Usyk surely puts to rest the idea that Ali wouldn't be competitive in today's sport. He's about the same size as Ali. Not long ago some ppl were saying the Klitschkos would destroy Ali, it wouldn't even be close, he's too small, how could he possibly compete? Now with Usyk beating the top "giants" pretty easily, we can see how a smaller fighter can get it done.

But it's true fighters are getting bigger, and I don't think Usyk's rice purity test wins necessarily mean that Bridgerweight (or equivalent) will never be a useful thing.

Note that all the giants appeared on the scene in the 1990s and beyond. Before that, most giants were slow and lumbering, and everyone over 6-6 who was coordinated was skinny like Julius Erving. Gosh what changed in the 90s+, that enabled giants to put on so much muscle unlike before? I think it's possible the giants era is really the PED era, nothing more.

- PED accusations a dime a dozen, sometimes two dozen on sale.

Usyk a natural Olympic Gold Medal 200 lb Heavy passing extensive modern drug screening, whereas Ali a skinny LightHeavy who was several fights into his pro career before breaking 200lb Heavy.

Weight classes exist for a reason, ie a fair sizing matchup, the reason feathers don’t fight heavies, ect…duh!!!

This is a fascinating discussion! The evolution of the heavyweight division and the role of giants is indeed intriguing. Usyk's success demonstrates that skill and strategy can still prevail over sheer size. Historically, fighters like Jack Johnson and Muhammad Ali were considered giants of their time, yet their sizes would be seen differently today.

It's also worth considering how modern training, nutrition, and possibly PEDs have influenced the size of fighters. While Usyk's accomplishments are impressive, the argument for a super heavyweight category to accommodate the increasing size of fighters might still hold some merit. It would be interesting to see how this division could impact the sport and if it would really address the concerns raised by both sides of this debate.

Looking forward to more insights from everyone here!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Usyk surely puts to rest the idea that Ali wouldn't be competitive in today's sport. He's about the same size as Ali. Not long ago some ppl were saying the Klitschkos would destroy Ali, it wouldn't even be close, he's too small, how could he possibly compete? Now with Usyk beating the top "giants" pretty easily, we can see how a smaller fighter can get it done.

But it's true fighters are getting bigger, and I don't think Usyk's rice purity test wins necessarily mean that Bridgerweight (or equivalent) will never be a useful thing.

Note that all the giants appeared on the scene in the 1990s and beyond. Before that, most giants were slow and lumbering, and everyone over 6-6 who was coordinated was skinny like Julius Erving. Gosh what changed in the 90s+, that enabled giants to put on so much muscle unlike before? I think it's possible the giants era is really the PED era, nothing more.

- PED accusations a dime a dozen, sometimes two dozen on sale.

Usyk a natural Olympic Gold Medal 200 lb Heavy passing extensive modern drug screening, whereas Ali a skinny LightHeavy who was several fights into his pro career before breaking 200lb Heavy.

Weight classes exist for a reason, ie a fair sizing matchup, the reason feathers don’t fight heavies, ect…duh!!!

This is a fascinating discussion! The evolution of the heavyweight division and the role of giants is indeed intriguing. Usyk's success demonstrates that skill and strategy can still prevail over sheer size. Historically, fighters like Jack Johnson and Muhammad Ali were considered giants of their time, yet their sizes would be seen differently today.

It's also worth considering how modern training, nutrition, and possibly PEDs have influenced the size of fighters. While Usyk's accomplishments are impressive, the argument for a super heavyweight category to accommodate the increasing size of fighters might still hold some merit. It would be interesting to see how this division could impact the sport and if it would really address the concerns raised by both sides of this debate.

Looking forward to more insights from everyone here!

- Primo introduced the first hue and cry for a juggernaut division with other various permutations after some deaths of his opponents.

WBC created BridgetteWt for light in the loafer hvys that has proven to be a bust of a bad joke by El Puerco Son of Jose.

Boxing in general caters to its majority fan demographic which has been and still been Low Brows. Hence every other fight controversial littered with barely literate Commishes and officials not to mention dangerously stooopid idiots like Loony Teddy who Cus kicked out after a few months that he leveraged into being a boxing expert trainer who ruined every fighter of note he ever trained.

What needs to be done most is consolidation of the TynyWt classes, eliminating 3 divisions to tweek the wt ranges from LightWt to LightHvy…

[pound per pound]

Usyk surely puts to rest the idea that Ali wouldn't be competitive in today's sport. He's about the same size as Ali. Not long ago some ppl were saying the Klitschkos would destroy Ali, it wouldn't even be close, he's too small, how could he possibly compete? Now with Usyk beating the top "giants" pretty easily, we can see how a smaller fighter can get it done.

But it's true fighters are getting bigger, and I don't think Usyk's rice purity test wins necessarily mean that Bridgerweight (or equivalent) will never be a useful thing.

Note that all the giants appeared on the scene in the 1990s and beyond. Before that, most giants were slow and lumbering, and everyone over 6-6 who was coordinated was skinny like Julius Erving. Gosh what changed in the 90s+, that enabled giants to put on so much muscle unlike before? I think it's possible the giants era is really the PED era, nothing more.

- PED accusations a dime a dozen, sometimes two dozen on sale.

Usyk a natural Olympic Gold Medal 200 lb Heavy passing extensive modern drug screening, whereas Ali a skinny LightHeavy who was several fights into his pro career before breaking 200lb Heavy.

Weight classes exist for a reason, ie a fair sizing matchup, the reason feathers don’t fight heavies, ect…duh!!!

This is a fascinating discussion! The evolution of the heavyweight division and the role of giants is indeed intriguing. Usyk's success demonstrates that skill and strategy can still prevail over sheer size. Historically, fighters like Jack Johnson and Muhammad Ali were considered giants of their time, yet their sizes would be seen differently today.

It's also worth considering how modern training, nutrition, and possibly PEDs have influenced the size of fighters. While Usyk's accomplishments are impressive, the argument for a super heavyweight category to accommodate the increasing size of fighters might still hold some merit. It would be interesting to see how this division could impact the sport and if it would really address the concerns raised by both sides of this debate.

Looking forward to more insights from everyone here!

In my opinion, the days of sub 210 pound heavyweights are over based on the rankings and weights of the participants in the heavyweight division for the past 20 years are basically over.   The average sized man in the division  is about 6'4" inches tall and weighs around 240 pounds.  The key word here is average. Not giants.  A giant in boxing is like 6'8" tall  or more.  There are few guy's that size.   

Now Usyk was a 200 pound cruiser weight, but like all fighters below the heavyweight division, he cuts weight first ,and then re-hydrates to around 210-215. 

This was an extremely disciplined fighter who took good care of his body.
I am for a boxing consolidation of its existing weight classes to better reflect modern human weights.

Start at flyweight, not below that amount.

Cut out all junior and super divisions.  

By limiting the  weight classes to 12 instead of say 17+, we will get better champions and force guys to fight at their weight.

Boxing might need to tweak a few middle to upper weight divisions  up in weight.

Examples:

Welterweight = 150
Middleweight = 165
Light heavyweight = 180
Cruiserweight = 205
Heavyweight - 210 +   

[gilgamesh]

An in shape, well skilled man over 200 pounds is a threat to any other man in a fight.

[gilgamesh]

- PED accusations a dime a dozen, sometimes two dozen on sale.

Usyk a natural Olympic Gold Medal 200 lb Heavy passing extensive modern drug screening, whereas Ali a skinny LightHeavy who was several fights into his pro career before breaking 200lb Heavy.

Weight classes exist for a reason, ie a fair sizing matchup, the reason feathers don’t fight heavies, ect…duh!!!

This is a fascinating discussion! The evolution of the heavyweight division and the role of giants is indeed intriguing. Usyk's success demonstrates that skill and strategy can still prevail over sheer size. Historically, fighters like Jack Johnson and Muhammad Ali were considered giants of their time, yet their sizes would be seen differently today.

It's also worth considering how modern training, nutrition, and possibly PEDs have influenced the size of fighters. While Usyk's accomplishments are impressive, the argument for a super heavyweight category to accommodate the increasing size of fighters might still hold some merit. It would be interesting to see how this division could impact the sport and if it would really address the concerns raised by both sides of this debate.

Looking forward to more insights from everyone here!

In my opinion, the days of sub 210 pound heavyweights are over based on the rankings and weights of the participants in the heavyweight division for the past 20 years are basically over.   The average sized man in the division  is about 6'4" inches tall and weighs around 240 pounds.  The key word here is average. Not giants.  A giant in boxing is like 6'8" tall  or more.  There are few guy's that size.   

Now Usyk was a 200 pound cruiser weight, but like all fighters below the heavyweight division, he cuts weight first ,and then re-hydrates to around 210-215. 

This was an extremely disciplined fighter who took good care of his body.
I am for a boxing consolidation of its existing weight classes to better reflect modern human weights.

Start at flyweight, not below that amount.

Cut out all junior and super divisions.  

By limiting the  weight classes to 12 instead of say 17+, we will get better champions and force guys to fight at their weight.

Boxing might need to tweak a few middle to upper weight divisions  up in weight.

Examples:

Welterweight = 150
Middleweight = 165
Light heavyweight = 180
Cruiserweight = 205
Heavyweight - 210 +   

I agree with eliminating a lot of the Middle weight classes like all of the Super/Jr weight classes can go. Cruiserweight has already been tweaked from 190 pounds to 200 pounds. Above 200 pounds you're a Heavyweight as far as I'm concerned, and that'll always be the way I see it.

[keithmoonhangover]

- PED accusations a dime a dozen, sometimes two dozen on sale.

Usyk a natural Olympic Gold Medal 200 lb Heavy passing extensive modern drug screening, whereas Ali a skinny LightHeavy who was several fights into his pro career before breaking 200lb Heavy.

Weight classes exist for a reason, ie a fair sizing matchup, the reason feathers don’t fight heavies, ect…duh!!!

This is a fascinating discussion! The evolution of the heavyweight division and the role of giants is indeed intriguing. Usyk's success demonstrates that skill and strategy can still prevail over sheer size. Historically, fighters like Jack Johnson and Muhammad Ali were considered giants of their time, yet their sizes would be seen differently today.

It's also worth considering how modern training, nutrition, and possibly PEDs have influenced the size of fighters. While Usyk's accomplishments are impressive, the argument for a super heavyweight category to accommodate the increasing size of fighters might still hold some merit. It would be interesting to see how this division could impact the sport and if it would really address the concerns raised by both sides of this debate.

Looking forward to more insights from everyone here!

In my opinion, the days of sub 210 pound heavyweights are over based on the rankings and weights of the participants in the heavyweight division for the past 20 years are basically over.   The average sized man in the division  is about 6'4" inches tall and weighs around 240 pounds.  The key word here is average. Not giants.  A giant in boxing is like 6'8" tall  or more.  There are few guy's that size.   

Now Usyk was a 200 pound cruiser weight, but like all fighters below the heavyweight division, he cuts weight first ,and then re-hydrates to around 210-215. 

This was an extremely disciplined fighter who took good care of his body.
I am for a boxing consolidation of its existing weight classes to better reflect modern human weights.

Start at flyweight, not below that amount.

Cut out all junior and super divisions.  

By limiting the  weight classes to 12 instead of say 17+, we will get better champions and force guys to fight at their weight.

Boxing might need to tweak a few middle to upper weight divisions  up in weight.

Examples:

Welterweight = 150
Middleweight = 165
Light heavyweight = 180
Cruiserweight = 205
Heavyweight - 210 +   

What happens if you weigh 207?

[golden_labrador]

This is a fascinating discussion! The evolution of the heavyweight division and the role of giants is indeed intriguing. Usyk's success demonstrates that skill and strategy can still prevail over sheer size. Historically, fighters like Jack Johnson and Muhammad Ali were considered giants of their time, yet their sizes would be seen differently today.

It's also worth considering how modern training, nutrition, and possibly PEDs have influenced the size of fighters. While Usyk's accomplishments are impressive, the argument for a super heavyweight category to accommodate the increasing size of fighters might still hold some merit. It would be interesting to see how this division could impact the sport and if it would really address the concerns raised by both sides of this debate.

Looking forward to more insights from everyone here!

In my opinion, the days of sub 210 pound heavyweights are over based on the rankings and weights of the participants in the heavyweight division for the past 20 years are basically over.   The average sized man in the division  is about 6'4" inches tall and weighs around 240 pounds.  The key word here is average. Not giants.  A giant in boxing is like 6'8" tall  or more.  There are few guy's that size.   

Now Usyk was a 200 pound cruiser weight, but like all fighters below the heavyweight division, he cuts weight first ,and then re-hydrates to around 210-215. 

This was an extremely disciplined fighter who took good care of his body.
I am for a boxing consolidation of its existing weight classes to better reflect modern human weights.

Start at flyweight, not below that amount.

Cut out all junior and super divisions.  

By limiting the  weight classes to 12 instead of say 17+, we will get better champions and force guys to fight at their weight.

Boxing might need to tweak a few middle to upper weight divisions  up in weight.

Examples:

Welterweight = 150
Middleweight = 165
Light heavyweight = 180
Cruiserweight = 205
Heavyweight - 210 +   

What happens if you weigh 207?

Bridgerweight time, baby!

[pound per pound]

In my opinion, the days of sub 210 pound heavyweights are over based on the rankings and weights of the participants in the heavyweight division for the past 20 years are basically over.   The average sized man in the division  is about 6'4" inches tall and weighs around 240 pounds.  The key word here is average. Not giants.  A giant in boxing is like 6'8" tall  or more.  There are few guy's that size.   

Now Usyk was a 200 pound cruiser weight, but like all fighters below the heavyweight division, he cuts weight first ,and then re-hydrates to around 210-215. 

This was an extremely disciplined fighter who took good care of his body.
I am for a boxing consolidation of its existing weight classes to better reflect modern human weights.

Start at flyweight, not below that amount.

Cut out all junior and super divisions.  

By limiting the  weight classes to 12 instead of say 17+, we will get better champions and force guys to fight at their weight.

Boxing might need to tweak a few middle to upper weight divisions  up in weight.

Examples:

Welterweight = 150
Middleweight = 165
Light heavyweight = 180
Cruiserweight = 205
Heavyweight - 210 +   

What happens if you weigh 207?

Bridgerweight time, baby!

Good question. Move Cruiserweight to 210. And change all weigh-ins to the day of the fight.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

What happens if you weigh 207?

Bridgerweight time, baby!

Good question. Move Cruiserweight to 210. And change all weigh-ins to the day of the fight.

- Reverting back to the stone age days may be for you, but always inferior to modern standards no matter how flawed they become because of low brow human nature.

I'll let you ride your Ol' Mule and I'll ride my new Kawasaki Ninja ZX...

[KiwiRider]

Usyk surely puts to rest the idea that Ali wouldn't be competitive in today's sport.

So true.
Intelligence, speed, movement - they all help combat size disparity.
Also, Ali had a long career, we should always judge him at peak when trying to make historical comparisons.