How great was Sugar Ray Robinson ?

El Raincoat · Post by **El Raincoat** » 14 Sep 2006, 18:49

I along with most boxing fans rate the original "Sugar Ray" as the best fighter ever.

I remember reading a story and it was his last fight and he was fighting up at Lt Heavy think it may of been Paul Pender and the commentor said to him is this guy any good Ray replied yeah he's got to be he's fighting me !

Great line anyone wanna add something about him.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 14 Sep 2006, 18:56

Sugar Ray Robinson was possibly the greatest fighter of all times. He was without a doubt the greatest Welterweight champion, as far as Middleweight, winning the title 5x's is impressive, but I myself rate Harry Greb over Robinson because Greb did more at the weight than Sugar did.

I know Robinson also almost was the Light Heavyweight champion, but unfortunately was so dehydrated the fight had to be called off. So here was a man, in my opinion, was the most dominate fighter of his times in three different weight classes.

He was so offensively great, but his defense was just as impressive, and he had charisma and speed and presence...I would say he stands on equal ground with both Pep and Armstrong as the greatest fighters of all time, if not having just a hair more than those men.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 14 Sep 2006, 20:48

Robinson is the best all round boxer I've ever seen... and unlike many all round fighters he was exceptional at just about everything rather than just being good at everything... he was exceptiionally clever, fast and stylish, had exceptional speed and power and an exceptional chin... in other words he was outstanding in every department and very very few other boxers have come close to that...

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 15 Sep 2006, 10:30

So most would agree that Sugar Ray Robinson was greater then Muhammad Ali? Henry Armstrong? I rank Robinson second to Ali, barely ahead of Armstrong.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 15 Sep 2006, 11:28

Here we go again. People who continually rate lower weight fighters greater than the great heavyweights. Ray Robinson had everything you guys mentioned and more, but no matter what he had, it still wasn't enough to be even the best or greatest fighter in his era. He was at best a Middle and the Heavyweight champions during Ray's reign would hve clean KO'd him. The fact they were bigger and stronger is not their fault, so why claim a fighter who had no realistic chance of beating them ever, as being better than them.

Ray Robinson was possibly the most talenetd allround fighter tha ever boxed, but he was never the greatest fighter. That accolade will always belong to the Heavyweight champions of the day

I rate a peak Ali as the finest fighting specimen ever, speed, footwork, chin, stamina, heart, combos and decent power who beat all types of fighters i the toughest division in the toughest era. Sorry Ray, you were an amazing Welter and Middle, but Ali was the finest figher of all and he would have KO'd you on any given day

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 15 Sep 2006, 12:20

I think the people who posted assumed the author of the thread meant pound for pound that Robinson was the greatest although he did not specify. Otherwise you could say that Scott Ladoex was a better fighter than say Salvador Sanchez on the basis he is bigger. Or that Ron Stander was better than Benny Leonard. I think you have to rate fighters against other fighters from their own weight class or somewhat close to it or else compare them on a pound for pound basis.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 15 Sep 2006, 12:44

I know what the thread was specifying, that Ray was the greatest fighter ever, p4p or otherwise and I simply disagree. It's not true and even if it were based on the fictitious p4p scenario, I don't believe it true. That can never be proved. What is true is that Ray would never have beat an Ali, Louis, Holyfield or any heavyweight champ. I do believe that he probably had more attributes and great attributes than any fighter I've ever seen. He had them to perfection too. But he was still only competing against guys i his weight class. Some Heavies can be giving away 20+ pounds to their opponents and have to contend.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 15 Sep 2006, 12:51

I supppose it's all a matter of perception but you would have something similar to the WWF if you were to lump all fighters together. You could start making comparisons like Jumbo Cummings beats Carlos Zarate because of his size, or Renaldo Snipes could beat Wilfredo Gomez, or Boone Kirkman beats Alexis Arguello. Would that mean that Tim Witherspoon is better than Carlos Monzon?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 15 Sep 2006, 14:13

walshb wrote:I know what the thread was specifying, that Ray was the greatest fighter ever, p4p or otherwise and I simply disagree. It's not true and even if it were based on the fictitious p4p scenario, I don't believe it true. That can never be proved. What is true is that Ray would never have beat an Ali, Louis, Holyfield or any heavyweight champ. I do believe that he probably had more attributes and great attributes than any fighter I've ever seen. He had them to perfection too. But he was still only competing against guys i his weight class. Some Heavies can be giving away 20+ pounds to their opponents and have to contend.

So are you saying that John Ruiz is better than Robinson? or Hagler or Armstrong?... just because he would most probably beat them becaiuse of his size!. Heavyweights can afford to give some weight away as they are so big, this was figurerd aout about 100+ years ago!.... 8)

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Sep 2006, 16:09

ray robinson may have been the greatest. however i think willie pep was the greatest fighter of all time

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 16 Sep 2006, 03:25

silkov wrote:
walshb wrote:I know what the thread was specifying, that Ray was the greatest fighter ever, p4p or otherwise and I simply disagree. It's not true and even if it were based on the fictitious p4p scenario, I don't believe it true. That can never be proved. What is true is that Ray would never have beat an Ali, Louis, Holyfield or any heavyweight champ. I do believe that he probably had more attributes and great attributes than any fighter I've ever seen. He had them to perfection too. But he was still only competing against guys i his weight class. Some Heavies can be giving away 20+ pounds to their opponents and have to contend.
So are you saying that John Ruiz is better than Robinson? or Hagler or Armstrong?... just because he would most probably beat them becaiuse of his size!. Heavyweights can afford to give some weight away as they are so big, this was figurerd aout about 100+ years ago!.... 8)

Ray Robinson I never said was not great. All I said was that no matter how great he was during his time, he was not great enough or greater to beat or even compete with the Heavies. Saying that there have been pathetic heavyweight champs, as there have been in all weights from time to time.I'm talking when boxing was in its heyday, when one champ ruled each division. P4P is and always will be fantasy, unprovable.

barry · Post by **barry** » 16 Sep 2006, 04:28

>>>I know what the thread was specifying, that Ray was the greatest fighter ever, p4p or otherwise and I simply disagree.<<<

Well, if Ray Robinson had been a 200+ pound fighter, with his skills, he would have cleaned out the division for 20+ years and he would have retired the greatest ever at heavyweight, but since he was not a heavyweight I rate Ali number 1, but P4P...no one could touch Ray Robinson!

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 16 Sep 2006, 10:07

Barry I think you used the one word that proves me right, 'IF'.........you can if if if all you like. It will never be proved because it's fantasy. The truth is that Ray was NOT 200lbs or above and Ali was not 160lbs. He was a heavyweight. I could also say what 'IF' When Ray was 200lbs, his hands and feet were considerably slower, his chin didn't stand up to Rocky's or Louis' punches. See what I'm getting at???. It's not like weird science here, where we can create the perfect fighting machine. Ray was close on perfect as a Welter and Middle, Ali, Louis etc were the best that a Heavy could possibly be, but to say Ray was a greater fighter is NOT TRUE. He was the greatest Middle, but not the greatest fighter

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 16 Sep 2006, 10:47

If Primo Carnera Had Roberto Duran's (lightweight) Skills, speed, savy, intelligence and endurance on a percentage to weight basis, he would be, by far, the greatest fighting machine in the history of the Universe. And this is a fact, nothing but a fact and will always be a fact.

So I'll not hear another disparaging comment about Primo Carnera in this, or any other thread from this point on. And should I come across such tripe I will simply and willfully disregard each and every word.

I hope I have made myself clear on this subject. I know it seems harsh but a man has to do what a man has to do.

Oh and I agree that Robinson was likely the greatest pound for pound. And that Ali was "the greatest".

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 16 Sep 2006, 12:05

walshb wrote:Barry I think you used the one word that proves me right, 'IF'.........you can if if if all you like. It will never be proved because it's fantasy. The truth is that Ray was NOT 200lbs or above and Ali was not 160lbs. He was a heavyweight. I could also say what 'IF' When Ray was 200lbs, his hands and feet were considerably slower, his chin didn't stand up to Rocky's or Louis' punches. See what I'm getting at???. It's not like weird science here, where we can create the perfect fighting machine. Ray was close on perfect as a Welter and Middle, Ali, Louis etc were the best that a Heavy could possibly be, but to say Ray was a greater fighter is NOT TRUE. He was the greatest Middle, but not the greatest fighter

Would you say that Duane Bobick was a better fighter than Salvador Sanchez?

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 16 Sep 2006, 12:11

Without Sugar Ray Robinson, there would not have been a Cassius Clay, Sugar Ray Leonard & host of other great fighters since.

SRR was an inspiration to many fighters since the 1940's.

For that alone, he IS the greatest.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 16 Sep 2006, 12:21

walshb wrote:Barry I think you used the one word that proves me right, 'IF'.........you can if if if all you like. It will never be proved because it's fantasy. The truth is that Ray was NOT 200lbs or above and Ali was not 160lbs. He was a heavyweight. I could also say what 'IF' When Ray was 200lbs, his hands and feet were considerably slower, his chin didn't stand up to Rocky's or Louis' punches. See what I'm getting at???. It's not like weird science here, where we can create the perfect fighting machine. Ray was close on perfect as a Welter and Middle, Ali, Louis etc were the best that a Heavy could possibly be, but to say Ray was a greater fighter is NOT TRUE. He was the greatest Middle, but not the greatest fighter

I'm afraid you dont understand the concept of a p4p discussion.... Primo Carnera would most probably have beaten Willie Pep and Henry Armstrong, does that make him a better fighter than them?... p4p it doesnt because as boxers they were miles ahead in ability...

barry · Post by **barry** » 16 Sep 2006, 12:54

>>>Primo Carnera would most probably have beaten Willie Pep and Henry Armstrong,<<<

But that is just as much "If" as anything Walsh is speaking of. Would Carnera beat Pep...probably, but it's not certain...Is Ray Robinson the best P4P...probably, but it's not certain!

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 16 Sep 2006, 12:55

If you are going by the logic Tyson could beat more men in a fair fight than Hagler could have beaten, therefore Tyson ranks higher than could'nt you also say that Greg Page could have beaten more men in a fair fight than Hagler due to his suppior size. So on that basis should you rank Greg Page more highly than Marvin Hagler?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 16 Sep 2006, 12:56

barry wrote:>>>Primo Carnera would most probably have beaten Willie Pep and Henry Armstrong,<<<

But that is just as much "If" as anything Walsh is speaking of. Would Carnera beat Pep...probably, but it's not certain...Is Ray Robinson the best P4P...probably, but it's not certain!

So whats your point?......

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 16 Sep 2006, 13:16

On the point that John Ruiz makes more money than fighters of lesser weight that just comes down to the publics particular intrenst in a certain fighter at any given time. For example in the eighties you had you're big money fights in the welterweight division and later on Hagler/Leonard in the middleweight division. The amount of money transcended you're weight divisions.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 16 Sep 2006, 13:51

..conclusion.....p4p (post for post) this walsh guy is one of the dumbest box rec members....

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 16 Sep 2006, 13:54

A scathing review of walshb if ever there was one.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 18 Sep 2006, 07:32

What about Sam Langford as the greatest P4P fighter ever.......the guy fought everywhere from LW to HW, and beat virtually everyone in his era. Would Robinson have beaten Langford at MW?

Ross · Post by **Ross** » 18 Sep 2006, 08:06

Talk about of on a tanget............

Back to Robinson, greatest p4P ever - he would have to be one of if not the best. I remember reading years ago when JC Chavez was closing in on getting to 100 - 00, or so thought at the time. That if he was American he would be rated the greatest of all time - I am pretty sure it was after the dramtics of Taylor and before the "draw" with Pernel Whitiker.

He certainly had a good record, multiple titles, just went straight through lots of good solid fighters, and fought at the top level for over a decade.

In hi prime does he beat Robnson at his best - P4P

And an easier one - Robinson Vs Lenard at welter - Robinson

At Middleweight - Robinson

Ross

How great was Sugar Ray Robinson ?

How great was Sugar Ray Robinson ?

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