Minter V Hagler (1980)

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 14 Sep 2006, 12:44

Mike McCallum was seriously avoided by Hearns, Leonard, Hagler. Apparently Hagler also wanted no part of Herol Graham either.

If I can see anyone giving Hagler a hard time, it would have been McCallum. Mike had a rock solid chin, a pretty fearsome dig, and boxing skills every bit as good, if not better than Haglers. He wasn't as physically strong as Hagler, but he would probably have done what Duran did and made it very hard for Hagler to land whilst landing his own shots. He had enough dig to keep Hagler honest as well as he was able to mix it with light heavyweights and prevail at top level.

I really wish we had seen McCallum in with the holy trinity, who knows how highly he might have been rated. I think Leonard might have been too much for him, Hearns I think knew that McCallum would have taken him apart with his body shots, and I'd have made Hagler slight favourite to beat McCallum, based only on his greater physical strength and aggression.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 14 Sep 2006, 12:49

I watched KOTV Classics last night on channel 4, they showed replays of Mosley-Gomez, cracking KO that was... solid right cross from Mosley landed right on the button and Gomez just fell gracefully onto Mosley's arm then Mosley sidestepped to the left and Gomez was on the canvas, almost in slow motion

They also showed Toney-McCallum 1. God knows how Mike managed to last the distance then, he was taking bombs all night, especially in the 12th

Interestingly tho' Hagler was also commentating on that fight, he was quite good as it goes.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 14 Sep 2006, 12:59

I don't know if I can ever recall seeing McCallum hurt. Toney was really in top form back then too. Toney said he learnt more fighting McCallum than any other fighter. He's one guy Toney always talks about with respect.

I remember when Roy Jones fought a 42 year old McCallum, he dropped him in the fight, McCallum didn't look badly hurt, but it was clear that Jones had his number, and I'm pretty sure he could have taken him out, but he took his foot off the gas and cruised to a points win, out of respect I think for the old man.

I think McCallum was a real fighter's fighters, one of my favourite guys to watch when he was in the groove.

Manny Steward said that of all the fighters he ever trained, McCallum was the guy for whom everything came easiest, he said he would show him something once, and Mike would pick it up straight away, and that's after they parted company. Manny ain't known for his loyalty to fighters once he's no longer involved with them, so that speaks volumes in my book. He said hearns was the greatest fighter he produced, but that McCallum was the most talented.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 14 Sep 2006, 13:11

Yea spot on with Manny and McCallum definetly had an iron chin.

Here's that Mosley KO I was just talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHoTb_oXgvE

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 15 Sep 2006, 11:31

Don Curry definitely shook up McCallum in their title fight at light middle.

Mike, of course, paid Curry back with interest x10 !

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 15 Sep 2006, 11:35

And Julian Jackson had him staggering like a drunken sailor when he connected early in their fight. You could see Mike think f**k this for a game of soldiers, set his feet and pound Jackson into oblivion a few minutes later.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 Sep 2006, 12:21

THEBUTCH wrote:Don Curry definitely shook up McCallum in their title fight at light middle.

Mike, of course, paid Curry back with interest x10 !

Hmm, I've got this fight on tape. He jolted his head back, but I don't think he ever actually hurt him.

Christ though, he didn't half pay in spades for that, what a corking shot.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 15 Sep 2006, 12:22

MightyWarrior wrote:And Julian Jackson had him staggering like a drunken sailor when he connected early in their fight. You could see Mike think f**k this for a game of soldiers, set his feet and pound Jackson into oblivion a few minutes later.

That was the thing about McCallum. Unusually for someone with such fantastic boxing skills, he could really dig. If someone pissed him off and started twatting him, he would hand them a pretty brutal beating.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 15 Sep 2006, 13:04

With regards to Mike McCallum fighting or being avoided by Hagler, Leonard, Duran and Leonard when was this meant to have actually happened?

I'n not saying all four were rushing to fight him, but to say they all avoided him just doesn't sit right with me when you consider the timelines etc.

HAGLER.

McCallum won the Vacant WBA Light Middleweight Title in 1984 with a dull points win over the modest Sean Mannion. Hardly a big name or money fight in the making for Hagler at that point. McCallum moved up to Middlweught in 1988 (and lost) after Hagler had retired.

DURAN

In 1984 an aging Duran got KO'd by Hearns in a brutal fashion and many thought his career was over. He contined fighting at a lower level including a loss to Robbie Simms untill he beat Iran Barkley in 1988. Maybe an old Duran could have fought a near peak McCallum then but would you want to see that? Instead Duran looked poor and lost to Leonard and Pat Lawlor then rumbled on for a few more years winning most but losing to top guys, so no point in facing the Bodysnatcher there then?

LEONARD.

Leonard came back in 1984 and looked awfull beating Kevin Howard then retired. McCallum was as stated not a big name at this point. Leonard came back sporadically over the years as we know to fight the big names (which Mike wasn't as yet). Maybe he could have fought Mike in 1988 instead of Donny Lalonde? Otherwise by the 1990's who would really want to see an old, rusty Leonard taking a beating off a near peak McCallum?

HEARNS.

A Hearns fight was maybe the nearest posibility timewise in my opinion, for a few months in 1988 he could have unified with McCallum, but Hearns went for the much bigger name and fighter and moved up to face Hagler in 1985 and put on one of the greatest fights ever.

Maybe again for a short while in 1986 Hearns could have fough McCallum instead of Mark Medal? Or at Middleweight in 1988 instead of getting KO'd by Barkley?

Also throw into the equation that when McCallum moved up to Middleweight in 1988 he LOST to Sumbu Kalambay. Then a year later only just won the title against Herol Graham. So at this time McCallum was not respected as he is now.

Fights with some of the FAB FOUR could have happened but realistically when and why?????

Andy Mac · Post by **Andy Mac** » 15 Sep 2006, 15:35

Looking at the Boxrec records and cross referrencing, I would hazard a guess and, it is only a guess, that the inference would be that McCallum was considered on the brink of peaking and, the hierarchy maybe refused to let him in. As Mike is the same age as leonard, 2 yrs younger than Hagler and, 2 yrs older than Hearns although in ring years a long way behind them and Duran it does not seem beyond the realms of possibility they could have fought. Also it would appear that McCallum would have had little problems fighting at 160, as again looking at Boxrec his weight does seem to move up and down a bit throughout his career.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 16 Sep 2006, 07:55

headhunter wrote:i seem to remember the mc shouting that from the centre of the ring during a robert mccraken fight in birmingham. i cant remember who he was fighting but it went off big time in the crowd with chairs flying through the air in the background whilst the fighters were still fighting. eventually it got so bad they had to stop the bout and at one point the t.v commentators were commentating from beneath the ring apron. i think that was footy related or something.
thankfully scene`s like these are very rare these days.

I was there that night, well away from the morons fighting I may add but it was still unerving. It was during the Robert McCraken vs Steve Foster fight on the undercard of Nigel Benn vs Juan Carlos Gimenez Ferreyra.

Both sets of fans had a bad reputation and the Man City - Birmingham City football angle didn't help matters either. Security at the NEC was a joke that night to.

From the start there was an atmosphere in the crown with more than the usual amount of mouthy idiots in the crowd so I wasn't shocked when it all kicked off.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 16 Sep 2006, 10:35

[quote="Andy Mac"][quote="harrygreb"]i saw the fight at the time, from the safety of my armchair, and have seen it 3 or 4 times since - alan wasnt getting battered he was still very much in the fight but due to his cuts he had to be more aggressive than usual, this was meat and drink to hagler who picked him off with some great jabs and one particularly brutal uppercut.[/quote]

That is strange. I met Alan Minter the week of the Hagler / Sibbo fight, and asked him who he fancied for the win as he'd faced both. His reply " Thats easy with Sibbo i was doing ok but then o was gone. With Hagler every single punch Fu,,,ckin hurt "[/quote]

whats strange about that? alan may have felt haglers punches but he was still, from a spectators angle, still in the fight. he was a brave f..er is what i'm trying to say

Andy Mac · Post by **Andy Mac** » 16 Sep 2006, 11:41

harrygreb wrote:
Andy Mac wrote:
harrygreb wrote:i saw the fight at the time, from the safety of my armchair, and have seen it 3 or 4 times since - alan wasnt getting battered he was still very much in the fight but due to his cuts he had to be more aggressive than usual, this was meat and drink to hagler who picked him off with some great jabs and one particularly brutal uppercut.
That is strange. I met Alan Minter the week of the Hagler / Sibbo fight, and asked him who he fancied for the win as he'd faced both. His reply " Thats easy with Sibbo i was doing ok but then o was gone. With Hagler every single punch Fu,,,ckin hurt "
whats strange about that? alan may have felt haglers punches but he was still, from a spectators angle, still in the fight. he was a brave f..er is what i'm trying to say

What was inconsistent if you prefer that word to strange, was when you wrote " Alan wasn't getting battered " when he himself thought that he was. However as you rightly point out his bravery was not up for discussion, because although he has publicly said he was not protesting when the ref stopped the fight, he was never gonna quit.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 16 Sep 2006, 12:18

KOJOE90 wrote:With regards to Mike McCallum fighting or being avoided by Hagler, Leonard, Duran and Leonard when was this meant to have actually happened?

I'n not saying all four were rushing to fight him, but to say they all avoided him just doesn't sit right with me when you consider the timelines etc.

HAGLER.

McCallum won the Vacant WBA Light Middleweight Title in 1984 with a dull points win over the modest Sean Mannion. Hardly a big name or money fight in the making for Hagler at that point. McCallum moved up to Middlweught in 1988 (and lost) after Hagler had retired.

DURAN

In 1984 an aging Duran got KO'd by Hearns in a brutal fashion and many thought his career was over. He contined fighting at a lower level including a loss to Robbie Simms untill he beat Iran Barkley in 1988. Maybe an old Duran could have fought a near peak McCallum then but would you want to see that? Instead Duran looked poor and lost to Leonard and Pat Lawlor then rumbled on for a few more years winning most but losing to top guys, so no point in facing the Bodysnatcher there then?

LEONARD.

Leonard came back in 1984 and looked awfull beating Kevin Howard then retired. McCallum was as stated not a big name at this point. Leonard came back sporadically over the years as we know to fight the big names (which Mike wasn't as yet). Maybe he could have fought Mike in 1988 instead of Donny Lalonde? Otherwise by the 1990's who would really want to see an old, rusty Leonard taking a beating off a near peak McCallum?

HEARNS.

A Hearns fight was maybe the nearest posibility timewise in my opinion, for a few months in 1988 he could have unified with McCallum, but Hearns went for the much bigger name and fighter and moved up to face Hagler in 1985 and put on one of the greatest fights ever.

Maybe again for a short while in 1986 Hearns could have fough McCallum instead of Mark Medal? Or at Middleweight in 1988 instead of getting KO'd by Barkley?

Also throw into the equation that when McCallum moved up to Middleweight in 1988 he LOST to Sumbu Kalambay. Then a year later only just won the title against Herol Graham. So at this time McCallum was not respected as he is now.

Fights with some of the FAB FOUR could have happened but realistically when and why?????

Well said & so true.

I always laugh when I hear that the fab 4 avoided McCallum.

The fab 4 are some of the most courageous fighters in history & I just can't accept that they would duck other fighters.

They were superstars, especially Leonard, they just didn't have the time to fight the admittedly excellent if nondescript McCallum.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 16 Sep 2006, 21:51

[quote="Andy Mac"][quote="harrygreb"][quote="Andy Mac"][quote="harrygreb"]i saw the fight at the time, from the safety of my armchair, and have seen it 3 or 4 times since - alan wasnt getting battered he was still very much in the fight but due to his cuts he had to be more aggressive than usual, this was meat and drink to hagler who picked him off with some great jabs and one particularly brutal uppercut.[/quote]

That is strange. I met Alan Minter the week of the Hagler / Sibbo fight, and asked him who he fancied for the win as he'd faced both. His reply " Thats easy with Sibbo i was doing ok but then o was gone. With Hagler every single punch Fu,,,ckin hurt "[/quote]

whats strange about that? alan may have felt haglers punches but he was still, from a spectators angle, still in the fight. he was a brave f..er is what i'm trying to say[/quote]

What was inconsistent if you prefer that word to strange, was when you wrote " Alan wasn't getting battered " when he himself thought that he was. However as you rightly point out his bravery was not up for discussion, because although he has publicly said he was not protesting when the ref stopped the fight, he was never gonna quit.[/quote]

well, if you'd have told me that alan said "against hagler i was getting battered" then that would have ended it and i would have changed my
view of the fight. however, he told you that "..every punch hurt" which is not the same thing at all. eubank said almost the same thing about nigel benn after he had beaten nigel in their first fight.
sorry to labour this point

fist · Post by **fist** » 17 Sep 2006, 10:31

SOmeone stated that Minter was getting battered, The truth is they were both taking a beating. Minter certainly didnt look inferior, eh was a hard man and was totally in the fight bar his cuts.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Sep 2006, 10:38

Syntax Error wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:With regards to Mike McCallum fighting or being avoided by Hagler, Leonard, Duran and Leonard when was this meant to have actually happened?

I'n not saying all four were rushing to fight him, but to say they all avoided him just doesn't sit right with me when you consider the timelines etc.

HAGLER.

McCallum won the Vacant WBA Light Middleweight Title in 1984 with a dull points win over the modest Sean Mannion. Hardly a big name or money fight in the making for Hagler at that point. McCallum moved up to Middlweught in 1988 (and lost) after Hagler had retired.

DURAN

In 1984 an aging Duran got KO'd by Hearns in a brutal fashion and many thought his career was over. He contined fighting at a lower level including a loss to Robbie Simms untill he beat Iran Barkley in 1988. Maybe an old Duran could have fought a near peak McCallum then but would you want to see that? Instead Duran looked poor and lost to Leonard and Pat Lawlor then rumbled on for a few more years winning most but losing to top guys, so no point in facing the Bodysnatcher there then?

LEONARD.

Leonard came back in 1984 and looked awfull beating Kevin Howard then retired. McCallum was as stated not a big name at this point. Leonard came back sporadically over the years as we know to fight the big names (which Mike wasn't as yet). Maybe he could have fought Mike in 1988 instead of Donny Lalonde? Otherwise by the 1990's who would really want to see an old, rusty Leonard taking a beating off a near peak McCallum?

HEARNS.

A Hearns fight was maybe the nearest posibility timewise in my opinion, for a few months in 1988 he could have unified with McCallum, but Hearns went for the much bigger name and fighter and moved up to face Hagler in 1985 and put on one of the greatest fights ever.

Maybe again for a short while in 1986 Hearns could have fough McCallum instead of Mark Medal? Or at Middleweight in 1988 instead of getting KO'd by Barkley?

Also throw into the equation that when McCallum moved up to Middleweight in 1988 he LOST to Sumbu Kalambay. Then a year later only just won the title against Herol Graham. So at this time McCallum was not respected as he is now.

Fights with some of the FAB FOUR could have happened but realistically when and why?????
Well said & so true.

I always laugh when I hear that the fab 4 avoided McCallum.

The fab 4 are some of the most courageous fighters in history & I just can't accept that they would duck other fighters.

They were superstars, especially Leonard, they just didn't have the time to fight the admittedly excellent if nondescript McCallum.

Well Ray Leonard himself said he never wanted to fight McCallum, and Manny Steward said he avoided making a fight with McCallum for Hearns. So that's two out of four.

However, I am not saying they were scared of McCallum, they just didn't fancy the risk-reward ratio.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 17 Sep 2006, 11:10

james you are so ubiquitously vociferous

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 17 Sep 2006, 11:31

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Syntax Error wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:With regards to Mike McCallum fighting or being avoided by Hagler, Leonard, Duran and Leonard when was this meant to have actually happened?

I'n not saying all four were rushing to fight him, but to say they all avoided him just doesn't sit right with me when you consider the timelines etc.

HAGLER.

McCallum won the Vacant WBA Light Middleweight Title in 1984 with a dull points win over the modest Sean Mannion. Hardly a big name or money fight in the making for Hagler at that point. McCallum moved up to Middlweught in 1988 (and lost) after Hagler had retired.

DURAN

In 1984 an aging Duran got KO'd by Hearns in a brutal fashion and many thought his career was over. He contined fighting at a lower level including a loss to Robbie Simms untill he beat Iran Barkley in 1988. Maybe an old Duran could have fought a near peak McCallum then but would you want to see that? Instead Duran looked poor and lost to Leonard and Pat Lawlor then rumbled on for a few more years winning most but losing to top guys, so no point in facing the Bodysnatcher there then?

LEONARD.

Leonard came back in 1984 and looked awfull beating Kevin Howard then retired. McCallum was as stated not a big name at this point. Leonard came back sporadically over the years as we know to fight the big names (which Mike wasn't as yet). Maybe he could have fought Mike in 1988 instead of Donny Lalonde? Otherwise by the 1990's who would really want to see an old, rusty Leonard taking a beating off a near peak McCallum?

HEARNS.

A Hearns fight was maybe the nearest posibility timewise in my opinion, for a few months in 1988 he could have unified with McCallum, but Hearns went for the much bigger name and fighter and moved up to face Hagler in 1985 and put on one of the greatest fights ever.

Maybe again for a short while in 1986 Hearns could have fough McCallum instead of Mark Medal? Or at Middleweight in 1988 instead of getting KO'd by Barkley?

Also throw into the equation that when McCallum moved up to Middleweight in 1988 he LOST to Sumbu Kalambay. Then a year later only just won the title against Herol Graham. So at this time McCallum was not respected as he is now.

Fights with some of the FAB FOUR could have happened but realistically when and why?????
Well said & so true.

I always laugh when I hear that the fab 4 avoided McCallum.

The fab 4 are some of the most courageous fighters in history & I just can't accept that they would duck other fighters.

They were superstars, especially Leonard, they just didn't have the time to fight the admittedly excellent if nondescript McCallum.
Well Ray Leonard himself said he never wanted to fight McCallum, and Manny Steward said he avoided making a fight with McCallum for Hearns. So that's two out of four.

However, I am not saying they were scared of McCallum, they just didn't fancy the risk-reward ratio.

Good points.

McCallum just didn't have the marquee value of the others & wasn't worth fighting in that respect.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 17 Sep 2006, 11:51

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well Ray Leonard himself said he never wanted to fight McCallum, and Manny Steward said he avoided making a fight with McCallum for Hearns. So that's two out of four.

However, I am not saying they were scared of McCallum, they just didn't fancy the risk-reward ratio.

When did Ray Leonard say he never wanted to fight McCallum and what were his reasons? Also at which point in Rays career did he 'choose' not to fight him?

With respect to you and Manny Steward he says a lot of things these days, also didn't Manny handle McCallum at one point? If so I can understand why he would not want his two best fighters to fight each other.

Andy Mac · Post by **Andy Mac** » 17 Sep 2006, 13:02

harrygreb wrote:
Andy Mac wrote:
harrygreb wrote: whats strange about that? alan may have felt haglers punches but he was still, from a spectators angle, still in the fight. he was a brave f..er is what i'm trying to say
What was inconsistent if you prefer that word to strange, was when you wrote " Alan wasn't getting battered " when he himself thought that he was. However as you rightly point out his bravery was not up for discussion, because although he has publicly said he was not protesting when the ref stopped the fight, he was never gonna quit.
well, if you'd have told me that alan said "against hagler i was getting battered" then that would have ended it and i would have changed my
view of the fight. however, he told you that "..every punch hurt" which is not the same thing at all. eubank said almost the same thing about nigel benn after he had beaten nigel in their first fight.
sorry to labour this point

I humbly apologize for not being able to remember word for word a fairly brief conversation i had with Alan Minter in February 1983. I shall endeavour to carry a tape recorder with me at all times in the future, should a similar event occur. The gist of said conversation was that Minter implied that he had never been repeatedly hit so hard as when he fought Marvin Hagler.
Please feel free to labour whatever you like, though i would not advise it on a building site, as this can be injurious to health.

harrygreb · Post by **harrygreb** » 17 Sep 2006, 16:29

dont apologise, just get it damned well right next time. perhaps a visit to a hypnotist before posting conversations that are more than 20 years old would help.

SticknMove · Post by **SticknMove** » 17 Sep 2006, 16:56

Boxers, managers and promoters say lots of things when asked questions. They have to give an answer. The reply, serious or flippant, shouldn't be taken as the unequivocal truth of what they actually believe.

Leonard may well be giving McCallum the props that he undoubtedly deserved, whilst acknowelging the fact he hadn't been involved in the highest profile of matchups that the modern age of boxing has seen.

To say that Leonard, Hearns, Hagler and Duran dodged him for anything other than financial considerations is absurd.

rhino222 · Post by **rhino222** » 17 Sep 2006, 17:53

livingstone cole wrote:Disgracefull behaviour. I'm glad that it's somewhat of a rarity that boxing fans behave like this. I remember the crowd kicking off once, I think it was a show in Sheffield. The MC (a well known one) was shouting through his mic, 'Behave yourselves, behave yourselves!', it was dealt with quite well I think.

that will be mike goodall, he is good in situations like that... mind you, the ring is a good place to hide !!

Andy Mac · Post by **Andy Mac** » 19 Sep 2006, 15:48

harrygreb wrote:dont apologise, just get it damned well right next time. perhaps a visit to a hypnotist before posting conversations that are more than 20 years old would help.

Frustated lawyer are we????