Monzon was overrated

[Esquire]

Go back and watch his fights, really watch them carefully, and tell me how he beats some of the better middleweight champions of the last 40 years. He never fought a middleweight as good as Hagler, Toney, Jones Jr., Hopkins,, McCallum, or Michael Nunn. I think GGG would break him in half.

Monzon looked amateurish in some of his title defenses, yet he is considered the best middleweight of all time. I don't see it.

Tell me how you think he beats any of the fighters I've mentioned.

[Esquire]

Even though it's bad form to reply to your own post, for those that disagree with my take on Monzon, give me his best win so I can go back and look at it. I just don't see it.

[pound per pound]

Go back and watch his fights, really watch them carefully, and tell me how he beats some of the better middleweight champions of the last 40 years. He never fought a middleweight as good as Hagler, Toney, Jones Jr., Hopkins,, McCallum, or Michael Nunn. I think GGG would break him in half.

Monzon looked amateurish in some of his title defenses, yet he is considered the best middleweight of all time. I don't see it.

Tell me how you think he beats any of the fighters I've mentioned.

After my review watching many of Monzon's fights, his media fondness  and then record breaking title defenses contribute significantly to his overall ATG ranking.

But he is neither fast handed, or powerful.  On video he is often the much bigger and taller man fighting the older or smaller fighter moving up in weight.  And his competition  was nothing special particularly the natural 160 pound men.

What was special about him was his excellent 15 round stamina which allowed him to set a pace  like a great marathon runner as he slowly  moved past his older / smaller opponent with a good not great jab and right hand.

In my opinion Hagler would eat him up, Hearns would prove to be too fast, powerfull, and rangy. Lenonard  would be just too good, and GGG jab and power would knock him out.

Maybe he beat James Toney based on activity.  Hopkins would be tricky and likely outpoint him. Nunn would likely do the same. I do think Monzon would edge McCallum. Monzon vs. McCallum would be a great fight.

Those were the great fighters after him.  Roy Jones would do a number on him but you did not mention that fighter, nor did you mention Calzaghe  who would do the same

[Esquire]

Thanks for the reply. I did mention Jones Jr, and I thought about Calzaghe, but he never held the middleweight title. I agree with your analysis. Thanks again.

[Ambling Alp II]

Go back and watch his fights, really watch them carefully, and tell me how he beats some of the better middleweight champions of the last 40 years. He never fought a middleweight as good as Hagler, Toney, Jones Jr., Hopkins,, McCallum, or Michael Nunn. I think GGG would break him in half.

Monzon looked amateurish in some of his title defenses, yet he is considered the best middleweight of all time. I don't see it.

Tell me how you think he beats any of the fighters I've mentioned.

Seriously? Nino Benvenuti and Emile Griffith were not as good as Mike McCallum? Wow. What about the great Sumbu Kalambay while you are at it ? McCallum was about even him. Tony and Nunn were not much better than McCallum at middleweight.

Funny how none of the great middleweights before Monzon are not mentioned, but all of these guys after him are.

[keithmoonhangover]

Go back and watch his fights, really watch them carefully, and tell me how he beats some of the better middleweight champions of the last 40 years. He never fought a middleweight as good as Hagler, Toney, Jones Jr., Hopkins,, McCallum, or Michael Nunn. I think GGG would break him in half.

Monzon looked amateurish in some of his title defenses, yet he is considered the best middleweight of all time. I don't see it.

Tell me how you think he beats any of the fighters I've mentioned.

Name me one Monzon title fight where he fought a guy as average as average as Dave Tiberi and got dominated. Go on, please,

[elmersalsa]

To me, Carlos Monzon is the greatest middleweight of all-time. He was a superb strategist, a thinking man's fighter that adapted to any style.

Not a complete boxer, but very strong. He knew how to measure the opponent and knew how to use the range. He had a powerful left jab, and a lethal right cross. He had great stamina and chin and great determination and ring generalship.

The guy can fight.

[elmersalsa]

The way he destroyed Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles was a thing of beauty. A master class exhibition from the great King Carlos.

[goose 5]

You sketched Monzon very accurately.

[bennie]

Monzon boasts one of the longest unbeaten streaks in the history of boxing. He went unbeaten in 81 fights before retiring as world middleweight champion in 1977 with a total record of 89-3-9 (59).

[pound per pound]

The way he destroyed Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles was a thing of beauty. A master class exhibition from the great King Carlos.

Jose was as smooth as butter.  But he fought Monzon when he was long in the tooth.  Monzon looked very good in the match, and beat the former welterweight who was several pounds away from 160 pounds.  The thin skinned Cuban who cut easily stood but 5'7" and started out well below welterweight was no match for Monzon.    I do not consider this a big win for Monzon, though  it certainly rates as a legacy win for him due to who Napoles was as a welter weight.  Monzons scored some popularity  points.    

I see this is a case when a natural middleweight beat up on an older and much smaller man.  No more than that.    A year later Napoles would be  KO'd again and retired so the win carried no legs the next year.

[elmersalsa]

The way he destroyed Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles was a thing of beauty. A master class exhibition from the great King Carlos.

Jose was as smooth as butter.  But he fought Monzon when he was long in the tooth.  Monzon looked very good in the match, and beat the former welterweight who was several pounds away from 160 pounds.  The thin skinned Cuban who cut easily stood but 5'7" and started out well below welterweight was no match for Monzon.    I do not consider this a big win for Monzon, though  it certainly rates as a legacy win for him due to who Napoles was as a welter weight.  Monzons scored some popularity  points.    

I see this is a case when a natural middleweight beat up on an older and much smaller man.  No more than that.    A year later Napoles would be  KO'd again and retired so the win carried no legs the next year.

Is not the win against Mantequilla that puts him with the greats, but Monzon did what he had to do: to put Mantequilla in his place and send him back to the Welterweights.

The way that he did it was spectacular. With text book precision jabs and right crosses. How to negate the opponent rushing in, and using his distance was as perfect as it could be. The guy had some tremendous intelligence and ring generalship, even though that he didn't had fast feet nor hands.

What a fighter!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Go back and watch his fights, really watch them carefully, and tell me how he beats some of the better middleweight champions of the last 40 years. He never fought a middleweight as good as Hagler, Toney, Jones Jr., Hopkins,, McCallum, or Michael Nunn. I think GGG would break him in half.

Monzon looked amateurish in some of his title defenses, yet he is considered the best middleweight of all time. I don't see it.

Tell me how you think he beats any of the fighters I've mentioned.

- Marv has a 4 year overlap with Monzon, but wasn't a ranked fighter then and still smarting from two losses that he avenged, the last a few months before Monzon fought the rematch with Valdez and retired with a stellar record.

So when Marv finally stepped up to a title shot with Vito Antuofermo, he couldn't handle him first go.

Now, we all know Marv got much better to establish his own sterling title win streak, but really, TwoTonToney never a great middle, and Jones a middle champ for one fight where he beat a 28 yr old Popkins with one hand after breaking his right. Nunn a talent, but a felon cokehead. McC a talent but death at the gate didn't make many friends at the Kronk while always whining about Tommy.

Popkins also death at the gate would duck Monzon. Nobody cared about Poppy until Oscar took him under his wing to make him a millionaire. Monzon never stunk out the ring like Poppy and never hung on like stink that never ends, and never broke down in tears like a kicked schoolgirl like Poppy with his stupid executioner rag he wore did numerous times, embarrassing yet comically true

Carlos was bestial and fighters were scared of him. Yeah, looks basic not flashy, yet racked up a bunch of HOFer scalps in fan friendly title fights back when men were still Men and title fights were 15 rounds. And for the record, both some of my fav fighters and for short while contemporaries where Monzon The King.

Timelines don't lie.

[elmersalsa]

Go back and watch his fights, really watch them carefully, and tell me how he beats some of the better middleweight champions of the last 40 years. He never fought a middleweight as good as Hagler, Toney, Jones Jr., Hopkins,, McCallum, or Michael Nunn. I think GGG would break him in half.

Monzon looked amateurish in some of his title defenses, yet he is considered the best middleweight of all time. I don't see it.

Tell me how you think he beats any of the fighters I've mentioned.

- Marv has a 4 year overlap with Monzon, but wasn't a ranked fighter then and still smarting from two losses that he avenged, the last a few months before Monzon fought the rematch with Valdez and retired with a stellar record.

So when Marv finally stepped up to a title shot with Vito Antuofermo, he couldn't handle him first go.

Now, we all know Marv got much better to establish his own sterling title win streak, but really, TwoTonToney never a great middle, and Jones a middle champ for one fight where he beat a 28 yr old Popkins with one hand after breaking his right. Nunn a talent, but a felon cokehead. McC a talent but death at the gate didn't make many friends at the Kronk while always whining about Tommy.

Popkins also death at the gate would duck Monzon. Nobody cared about Poppy until Oscar took him under his wing to make him a millionaire. Monzon never stunk out the ring like Poppy and never hung on like stink that never ends, and never broke down in tears like a kicked schoolgirl like Poppy with his stupid executioner rag he wore did numerous times, embarrassing yet comically true

Carlos was bestial and fighters were scared of him. Yeah, looks basic not flashy, yet racked up a bunch of HOFer scalps in fan friendly title fights back when men were still Men and title fights were 15 rounds. And for the record, both some of my fav fighters and for short while contemporaries where Monzon The King.

Timelines don't lie.

Carlos Monzon would have been proud of this post you made, champ! Congratulations!

[cfang]

Monzon’s record doesn’t lie. He was the best middle in the world for seven years. He’d be a match for almost any middleweight ever. I’d pick maybe a couple to beat him but wouldn’t be shocked if he beat them too. Outstanding fighter with a lot of attributes.

[elmersalsa]

Monzon’s record doesn’t lie. He was the best middle in the world for seven years. He’d be a match for almost any middleweight ever. I’d pick maybe a couple to beat him but wouldn’t be shocked if he beat them too. Outstanding fighter with a lot of attributes.

And the sorry thing about it is that he's not top ten all-time in the majority of the boxing experts lists. That's ridiculous! With that record that he had, he could be top 10 all-time pound per pound great consideration.

I like Carlos Monzon a lot. He doesn't make the top ten because there were some incredible boxers that were better than he. But between the range from #12 to #20 pound per pound all-time is more than fair. I got him at #17. What a fighter!

[Ezzard]

Not sure we have seen a better middleweight since Monzon. Top 5 MW of all-time in anyone's book.

[elmersalsa]

Not sure we have seen a better middleweight since Monzon. Top 5 MW of all-time in anyone's book.

To me, at middleweight, King Carlos is #1.

[Ezzard]

Not sure we have seen a better middleweight since Monzon. Top 5 MW of all-time in anyone's book.

To me, at middleweight, King Carlos is #1.

He could be. Greb has it on record alone but we've never seen him.

[Seamus]

Monzon's resume falls considerably short of Sugar Ray Robinson's.

[cfang]

Monzon's resume falls considerably short of Sugar Ray Robinson's.

At middleweight I’d say not. Couldn’t see monzon losing to basilio or fullmer or Turpin.

[pound per pound]

Monzon’s record doesn’t lie. He was the best middle in the world for seven years. He’d be a match for almost any middleweight ever. I’d pick maybe a couple to beat him but wouldn’t be shocked if he beat them too. Outstanding fighter with a lot of attributes.

He was the best middle weight for about 7 years.  Upon further review he reigned over a somewhat weak bunch, the best of which were ever weights  who were much shorter and smaller than he was. And more shop worn. That was a Monzon specialty.    

Retiring  when he did, and not facing Hagler or moving up to light heavyweight  preserved his image.  
I think Hagler would have beaten Monzon's doors off. Bob Foster would have Ko'd him badly

[Expug]

Ezzard Charles at middleweight beats him. Hagler beats him too. But when it comes to Charles, I’m curious how monzon would beat him.

[Riddick Bowie]

I think the OP is victim to that curious phenomenon where a fan nurtured on 'modern' boxing -- i.e. post Ali/Leonard braggart types with flashy moves, alphabet titles and a high volume of quasi impressive defences over dressed up garbage men and street sweepers, hand picked to ensure highlight reel KOs, all with high impact glossy TV production and a soundtrack of fawning cheerleaders masquerading as commentators -- visits a great fighter of the past expecting more of the same and is left flummoxed by the footage. Sort of like a child raised on TikTok being handed a book. The brain isn't fit for the job.

[BoxBuzz]

I like how some observers have assessed him as saying he had deficits in power and speed. I don't disagree. But .....PRECISION is the best attribute of a boxer. His accuracy is uncanny. At his best he beats any MW from any time period. He also was rather rugged with the ability to absorb, though he was also good at avoiding incoming. He was only really rocked once. He was a cross between Escopeta and Sniper. And his ability to judge distance was unrivaled. Precision/accuracy trumps power and speed. It's the ultimate skill. Hit what you aim for, and don't be there when the incoming arrives. That was his signature. He was also a terrible person.

Not sure how long his prime actually lasted as some here have pointed out his era wasn't the strongest. So even before and after his prime he was always effective enough to win against the opponents that were put in front of him. He would beat Hagler, it's a good thing a young Hagler did not cross paths with the aging Escopeta, as a loss that early in his career might have changed his entire trajectory.