Terry Downes v Dick Tiger

[Ezzard]

Terry took on the great African in just his 3rd fight. Talk about being thrown to the wolves (tigers)...

Anyone know much about how and why this fight got made?

[prewarboxing]

Because Dick Tiger was nothing special when Downes fought him. Take a look at his record. Lost to Alan Dean (7-6) a couple of bouts before meeting Downes. Dick went on to greatness but was nowhere near it when he fought Downes

Miles Templeton

[JamesPhilips]

Because Dick Tiger was nothing special when Downes fought him. Take a look at his record. Lost to Alan Dean (7-6) a couple of bouts before meeting Downes. Dick went on to greatness but was nowhere near it when he fought Downes

Miles Templeton

That’s no excuse for a terrible piece of matchmaking.
Tiger was 20-8 and had won 6 of his last 7 including winning a rematch against Dean.
An almost 30 fight veteran, who’d never been stopped (save for a broken thumb) with a winning record, coming off a second round KO win over the very decent Johnny Read against a 2 fight novice is an awful match.

After the fight I think Downes was asked who he’d fight next and he suggested the matchmaker.

[Coco]

Because Dick Tiger was nothing special when Downes fought him. Take a look at his record. Lost to Alan Dean (7-6) a couple of bouts before meeting Downes. Dick went on to greatness but was nowhere near it when he fought Downes

Miles Templeton

[JamesPhilips]

Because Dick Tiger was nothing special when Downes fought him. Take a look at his record. Lost to Alan Dean (7-6) a couple of bouts before meeting Downes. Dick went on to greatness but was nowhere near it when he fought Downes

Miles Templeton

See my post above. Still an awful piece of matchmaking.

[Ezzard]

Because Dick Tiger was nothing special when Downes fought him. Take a look at his record. Lost to Alan Dean (7-6) a couple of bouts before meeting Downes. Dick went on to greatness but was nowhere near it when he fought Downes

Miles Templeton

Thanks. I love it when a guy goes under the radar like that. Then suddenly it all clicks and they become a world beater.

[Ruthless-RKO]

Terry took on the great African in just his 3rd fight. Talk about being thrown to the wolves (tigers)...

Anyone know much about how and why this fight got made?

https://www.ringtv.com/519300-best-faced-terry-downes/

Downes returned to England after his discharge from the Marines, in January 1957, and promptly turned pro. Only three fights into his career, he was matched with a then-unknown fighter named Dick Tiger.

Tiger, a modest 20-8 at the time but loaded with latent talent, was too much for the young Brit, stopping him in five rounds. The U.K.-based Nigerian would go on to win championships at middleweight and light heavyweight and be inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame.

In his solemn changing room after the fight, the charismatic Downes was asked who he’d like to fight next. “The bastard who made this match,” he quipped.

STRONGEST

Dick Tiger: Probably Dick Tiger. He was attacking all the time; it was hard to keep him off. You couldn’t push him back.

[JamesPhilips]

Also Alan Dean didn’t have the best record but was also matched hard - his 7-6 ledger included 2 losses on points against prospect Len Lowther and one against Gerry McNally.

Amazingly he fought Dick Tiger FIVE times, all going to points with 2 wins and 3 losses.

[Taansend]

As a teen I read "My Bleeding Business" over & over.

He talks about that fight in the book. As usual he's very funny about it.

If you haven't read that book I highly recommend it.

In fact, I think I'll order it. Been around 40 years since I read it

[olij999]

Because Dick Tiger was nothing special when Downes fought him. Take a look at his record. Lost to Alan Dean (7-6) a couple of bouts before meeting Downes. Dick went on to greatness but was nowhere near it when he fought Downes

Miles Templeton

And, if I may add to Myles' explanation, when boxers came over from Nigeria or Ghana in the 1950s, their records were generally not traced/easily traceable, and the British boxing community assumed that such fighters simply couldn't fight very well. That's why the rise of Roy Ankrah came as such a shock to them but was still explained away as an exception, until Attu Clottey followed him, and so on (as will be explained in my fab book to come out in 2027, plug, plug). Plus I don't think Tiger was even claiming to be Nigerian champ or West African champ, unlike many others who came over saying they were champion of their home country (compare Roy Ankrah - when he arrived, he claimed around 100 straight wins, no defeats, and Gold Coast titles at everything from fly to welter - very different).

So the manager, promoter, matchmaker etc who made the fight would have only had Tiger's British record of 6 wins, 5 losses in front of them and thought "He's 6-5(2), doesn't stop many but doesn't get stopped himself, so he'll give Downes some rounds" (which would have been a consideration as Downes had won his first two pro fights quickly).

Given that, and the fact that Downes had had quite an extensive and well-publicised amateur run in the States and had turned pro in the UK with a bit of fanfare, I wouldn't see it as bad matchmaking at all.

[Ezzard]

Question is then... What happened to Tiger in those UK defeats? What made him put it together for Downes?

[JamesPhilips]

Because Dick Tiger was nothing special when Downes fought him. Take a look at his record. Lost to Alan Dean (7-6) a couple of bouts before meeting Downes. Dick went on to greatness but was nowhere near it when he fought Downes

Miles Templeton

And, if I may add to Myles' explanation, when boxers came over from Nigeria or Ghana in the 1950s, their records were generally not traced/easily traceable, and the British boxing community assumed that such fighters simply couldn't fight very well. That's why the rise of Roy Ankrah came as such a shock to them but was still explained away as an exception, until Attu Clottey followed him, and so on (as will be explained in my fab book to come out in 2027, plug, plug). Plus I don't think Tiger was even claiming to be Nigerian champ or West African champ, unlike many others who came over saying they were champion of their home country (compare Roy Ankrah - when he arrived, he claimed around 100 straight wins, no defeats, and Gold Coast titles at everything from fly to welter - very different).

So the manager, promoter, matchmaker etc who made the fight would have only had Tiger's British record of 6 wins, 5 losses in front of them and thought "He's 6-5(2), doesn't stop many but doesn't get stopped himself, so he'll give Downes some rounds" (which would have been a consideration as Downes had won his first two pro fights quickly).

Given that, and the fact that Downes had had quite an extensive and well-publicised amateur run in the States and had turned pro in the UK with a bit of fanfare, I wouldn't see it as bad matchmaking at all.

This is a good post making decent points. I mean they didn’t have Boxrec in the day…. Anyone have a copy of the Boxing News preview? Now THAT would be interesting

[prewarboxing]

Because Dick Tiger was nothing special when Downes fought him. Take a look at his record. Lost to Alan Dean (7-6) a couple of bouts before meeting Downes. Dick went on to greatness but was nowhere near it when he fought Downes

Miles Templeton

And, if I may add to Myles' explanation, when boxers came over from Nigeria or Ghana in the 1950s, their records were generally not traced/easily traceable, and the British boxing community assumed that such fighters simply couldn't fight very well. That's why the rise of Roy Ankrah came as such a shock to them but was still explained away as an exception, until Attu Clottey followed him, and so on (as will be explained in my fab book to come out in 2027, plug, plug). Plus I don't think Tiger was even claiming to be Nigerian champ or West African champ, unlike many others who came over saying they were champion of their home country (compare Roy Ankrah - when he arrived, he claimed around 100 straight wins, no defeats, and Gold Coast titles at everything from fly to welter - very different).

So the manager, promoter, matchmaker etc who made the fight would have only had Tiger's British record of 6 wins, 5 losses in front of them and thought "He's 6-5(2), doesn't stop many but doesn't get stopped himself, so he'll give Downes some rounds" (which would have been a consideration as Downes had won his first two pro fights quickly).

Given that, and the fact that Downes had had quite an extensive and well-publicised amateur run in the States and had turned pro in the UK with a bit of fanfare, I wouldn't see it as bad matchmaking at all.

My thoughts entirely. Beautifully put. I do not see this as bad matchmaking at all. In retrospect it is, clearly, but back then, not at all. One has to remember that the preservation of the unbeaten record, or the ‘0’, as it is often referred to, meant nothing back then. Nobody minded losing a bout, as long as you learnt from it. Downes lost a lot of bouts in the early part of his career and he went on to win the World title. Too many modern fighters are overly protected by careful matchmaking, win their first twelve, then get beat and then retire. In 1958 boxers had to step up early and face up to reality. Downes did this, he lost, and then lost again, and still came back, and beat Pender, Giardello and Robinson.

Not overmatched against Tiger at all, in my view. Did him good in the long run, which is the run that matters.

Miles Templeton

[Ezzard]

Because Dick Tiger was nothing special when Downes fought him. Take a look at his record. Lost to Alan Dean (7-6) a couple of bouts before meeting Downes. Dick went on to greatness but was nowhere near it when he fought Downes

Miles Templeton

And, if I may add to Myles' explanation, when boxers came over from Nigeria or Ghana in the 1950s, their records were generally not traced/easily traceable, and the British boxing community assumed that such fighters simply couldn't fight very well. That's why the rise of Roy Ankrah came as such a shock to them but was still explained away as an exception, until Attu Clottey followed him, and so on (as will be explained in my fab book to come out in 2027, plug, plug). Plus I don't think Tiger was even claiming to be Nigerian champ or West African champ, unlike many others who came over saying they were champion of their home country (compare Roy Ankrah - when he arrived, he claimed around 100 straight wins, no defeats, and Gold Coast titles at everything from fly to welter - very different).

So the manager, promoter, matchmaker etc who made the fight would have only had Tiger's British record of 6 wins, 5 losses in front of them and thought "He's 6-5(2), doesn't stop many but doesn't get stopped himself, so he'll give Downes some rounds" (which would have been a consideration as Downes had won his first two pro fights quickly).

Given that, and the fact that Downes had had quite an extensive and well-publicised amateur run in the States and had turned pro in the UK with a bit of fanfare, I wouldn't see it as bad matchmaking at all.

My thoughts entirely. Beautifully put. I do not see this as bad matchmaking at all. In retrospect it is, clearly, but back then, not at all. One has to remember that the preservation of the unbeaten record, or the ‘0’, as it is often referred to, meant nothing back then. Nobody minded losing a bout, as long as you learnt from it. Downes lost a lot of bouts in the early part of his career and he went on to win the World title. Too many modern fighters are overly protected by careful matchmaking, win their first twelve, then get beat and then retire. In 1958 boxers had to step up early and face up to reality. Downes did this, he lost, and then lost again, and still came back, and beat Pender, Giardello and Robinson.

Not overmatched against Tiger at all, in my view. Did him good in the long run, which is the run that matters.

Miles Templeton

Everyone knows this is right. 100%.

But then as soon as someone loses he is wirtten off and told to retire.