The Salt Lake Tribune's coverage of the first bout between
Fireman Jim Flynn and Jack Dempsey. Believe me, I have
read a number of autobiographies and biographies of Dempsay,
so I can tell you that none of the said books had accurate
information about the first Flynn-Dempsey bout. The
facts in regards to the first bout are: 1. Dempsey was knocked
out, not technically knockout. 2. A number of people who
saw the bout felt that there was a fix. 3. There were some
interesting incidents surrounding the bout.
- Chuck Johnston
The Darkside of The Ring: Fixes, Dives and Murder
Wow, Vitali looks pissed the fight ended so quickly. You can see him motioning the "Come on, get up!" hand motion to Orlin.
I don't know if he hit Norris that hard or if Orlin just knew he was out of his league (too big, tall, and strong) and didn't want to get hurt. If that is the reasoning, I don't blame him. I'd rather take getting booed and fight another day than get seriously hurt.
..decagon...i was referring to charles/walcott decisions...none of which were questionable. in no way do i detract from walcott's kayo over charles. i do say that based on their overall careers charles was clearly the superior fighter. i am including charles's entire career....the greatest light heavy ever...and, when at that weight he beat heavyweights.....well before he fought in the latter division.
You are absolutely right.Decagon wrote:Watch the second knockdown again. Not a single blow lands. The only punch that Vitali lands in that entire fight is the arm jab that prompted Norris's dramatic pratfall.
That was a dive. Whether Norris was paid off, or whether he just felt like taking a dive is completely up to speculation.
Norris laid down.
A total disgrace. I had never seen that "fight " before.
The thing is , its much more common for a fighter to look for a soft spot on the canvas than to accept money to go in the tank. Usally the fighter lays down as they say because he just wants to collect a check and go home without getting the shit kicked out of him.
Personally I wouldnt have thrown a fight for all the money in the world.
And if some wanna be wiseguy p.ssy ever told me to lay down under the threat of violence , I would tear his head off.
Personally I wouldnt have thrown a fight for all the money in the world.
And if some wanna be wiseguy p.ssy ever told me to lay down under the threat of violence , I would tear his head off.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Decagon- I can't believe that you thought this was a draw. I remember thinking that Oquendo won fairly easily. I think I had it 116-112. In the post fight interview even Byrd seemed to think that Oquendo won.Decagon wrote:Slow down, hombre. I covered that fight for Inside Fighting, and I had the fight 114-114. Oquendo did NOTHING in rounds 1, and 9 to 12. The 12th round probably should have been a 10-8 round, but Oquendo fouled instead of going down. He should have had a point taken away for the crap he pulled. If he had, Byrd would've won the fight outright on my scorecard. You can't take five rounds off, and then bitch about the decision, my friend.IrishRufusMurphy wrote:3- Chris Byrd gets a 12 round DRAW against Fres Oquendo, on an Indian Reservation, in which everybody felt that Oquendo won.
Also, it was a win for Byrd. I don't think Byrd winning is that bad of a decision. What made the fight controversial was the margin of victory. Steve Eppstein had it 116-112 for Byrd, and Steve Lawson had it 117-111 for Byrd. Don Ackerman's scorecard of 115-113 for Byrd I can't complain about. It's only a round removed from how I saw the fight.
Oquendo faded, just like he did against John Ruiz.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
I am usually very reluctant to believe in fixes, but this really does look suspicious. Norris (who had a good chin) goes down from a jab and is flat on his back? It looks like he barely got hit when he went down for the 2nd time as well, and this time he couldn't beat the count. Makes you wonder what the over/under was for how many rounds this was supposed to go.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Here's another thing to consider:
Medical records bought off for the 'OK'.
I remember before Muhammad Ali fought Larry Holmes he went into the Mayo Clinic and on one particular test it was quoted as saying:
[On the finger to nose test] "He slightly missed the target"
[On hopping on one foot] "He does no hop with the anticipation that one might hope"
Ali was still given the 'OK' and what happened? He was butchered for 10 rounds and went out on his stool in the 11th. Ali landed maybe only 8 or 10 punches in 10 rounds, that's less than 1 punch per round.
How about Joe Mesi? The man has faced relatively nobodies and goes the distance with them in four-six-eight rounders. He didn't even hurt his last opponent, some bum named Stephanie lol
Or how about cases like Earnie Schaaf? There is no way Schaaf should have been able to have fought and he died in the ring.
Medical records bought off for the 'OK'.
I remember before Muhammad Ali fought Larry Holmes he went into the Mayo Clinic and on one particular test it was quoted as saying:
[On the finger to nose test] "He slightly missed the target"
[On hopping on one foot] "He does no hop with the anticipation that one might hope"
Ali was still given the 'OK' and what happened? He was butchered for 10 rounds and went out on his stool in the 11th. Ali landed maybe only 8 or 10 punches in 10 rounds, that's less than 1 punch per round.
How about Joe Mesi? The man has faced relatively nobodies and goes the distance with them in four-six-eight rounders. He didn't even hurt his last opponent, some bum named Stephanie
lolOr how about cases like Earnie Schaaf? There is no way Schaaf should have been able to have fought and he died in the ring.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Speaking of that, I read somewhere that they made into law that evveryone 130 pounds and up have to wear 10 ounce gloves, because of the 'brain damage' factor.
For one, gloves are not and never were made to cushion the blows to the head, they were made so that a fighters hands wouldnt break as easily. All that law is doing, in my opinion, is adding more fuel to the fire, all it will do is make fighters be able to throw more punches and in short, the fatalities will rise.
Same thing with headgear. Headgear was NEVER made to cushion blows to a fighters head, but to protect them from getting cut. I have used headgear sparring and myself I think it's more junk than anything useful. It cuts off your side vision, doesn't protect your chin, and [in my opinion] hurts worse getting hit to the head with the head-gear on than off.
As far as licensing ANY fighter, no matter what his rank is, who has brain damage is idiotic. And in a broader sense it's worse for a higher ranked fighter with brain damage to be licensed---not only because the competition is much greater and you're more able to get hurt, but all this does in the long run is give boxing a blackeye to the MAIN STREAM.
Boxing gets enough bad press, let alone having some guy whose reflexes are slower and one more bad hit could make him a vegetable, be on the next PPV for the world to see him get possibly killed.
For one, gloves are not and never were made to cushion the blows to the head, they were made so that a fighters hands wouldnt break as easily. All that law is doing, in my opinion, is adding more fuel to the fire, all it will do is make fighters be able to throw more punches and in short, the fatalities will rise.
Same thing with headgear. Headgear was NEVER made to cushion blows to a fighters head, but to protect them from getting cut. I have used headgear sparring and myself I think it's more junk than anything useful. It cuts off your side vision, doesn't protect your chin, and [in my opinion] hurts worse getting hit to the head with the head-gear on than off.
As far as licensing ANY fighter, no matter what his rank is, who has brain damage is idiotic. And in a broader sense it's worse for a higher ranked fighter with brain damage to be licensed---not only because the competition is much greater and you're more able to get hurt, but all this does in the long run is give boxing a blackeye to the MAIN STREAM.
Boxing gets enough bad press, let alone having some guy whose reflexes are slower and one more bad hit could make him a vegetable, be on the next PPV for the world to see him get possibly killed.
HBO did a special on Carmen Basilio “Fighting the Mob”
Their story was, no matter how hard they tried, the mob couldn’t get him involved in fixes, and even how his life had been in danger at times for not playing ball. Basilio, or so HBO reported, stood up to the mob and fought them every step of the way
Makes a fascinating story, but according to everything I was ever told, in some cases from those who were there first hand, it just doesn’t happen to be true.
I grew up in the Syracuse area and my dad was a pro boxer, so I got to know the fighters and fight people in the Syracuse /Canastota scene from the time I could walk.
What IS said to be true is that Basilio never took a dive and never won a fixed fight, but “Fighting” the mob had nothing to do with it.
The fact was, that Basilio’s handlers, Johnny DeJohn and Joe Nitro, and to a lesser extent, Basilio himself, knew Gabe Genovese and Frankie Carbo , had a mutual respect, and thus not only, with one exception, did they not get Basilio mixed up in that type of thing, they made sure no one else did either.
On one occasion, Carbo, who was a Luchase family made guy, had set aside his friendship with Nitro and DeJohn, and was trying to get a foothold on a possible match between Basilio and Robinson. The idea being, get to Robinson to take a dive in the fight, then set up a legitimate rematch
It was Genovese, a Buffalo family guy, who partly from a jail cell, got Carbo to back off.
As a result, the idea never got any farther then Robinson and his handlers hearing of the plan second and third hand. As always, Nitro and DeJohn protected Basilio from the entire thing, and he never even know it was in the works till years later.
Another individual who took a keen interest in Basilio’s career, was a man named Danny Bisone, who would later be the owner of the Syracuse Nationals on the NBA. Danny was not a mob guy, but he too, had friends and associates in the Buffalo mafia dating back to his childhood. He too, used those friendships to dissuade any mob influence in Basilio’s career.
Their story was, no matter how hard they tried, the mob couldn’t get him involved in fixes, and even how his life had been in danger at times for not playing ball. Basilio, or so HBO reported, stood up to the mob and fought them every step of the way
Makes a fascinating story, but according to everything I was ever told, in some cases from those who were there first hand, it just doesn’t happen to be true.
I grew up in the Syracuse area and my dad was a pro boxer, so I got to know the fighters and fight people in the Syracuse /Canastota scene from the time I could walk.
What IS said to be true is that Basilio never took a dive and never won a fixed fight, but “Fighting” the mob had nothing to do with it.
The fact was, that Basilio’s handlers, Johnny DeJohn and Joe Nitro, and to a lesser extent, Basilio himself, knew Gabe Genovese and Frankie Carbo , had a mutual respect, and thus not only, with one exception, did they not get Basilio mixed up in that type of thing, they made sure no one else did either.
On one occasion, Carbo, who was a Luchase family made guy, had set aside his friendship with Nitro and DeJohn, and was trying to get a foothold on a possible match between Basilio and Robinson. The idea being, get to Robinson to take a dive in the fight, then set up a legitimate rematch
It was Genovese, a Buffalo family guy, who partly from a jail cell, got Carbo to back off.
As a result, the idea never got any farther then Robinson and his handlers hearing of the plan second and third hand. As always, Nitro and DeJohn protected Basilio from the entire thing, and he never even know it was in the works till years later.
Another individual who took a keen interest in Basilio’s career, was a man named Danny Bisone, who would later be the owner of the Syracuse Nationals on the NBA. Danny was not a mob guy, but he too, had friends and associates in the Buffalo mafia dating back to his childhood. He too, used those friendships to dissuade any mob influence in Basilio’s career.
For quite some time I thought that fight looked quite fixed as well...Ambling Alp wrote:I am usually very reluctant to believe in fixes, but this really does look suspicious. Norris (who had a good chin) goes down from a jab and is flat on his back? It looks like he barely got hit when he went down for the 2nd time as well, and this time he couldn't beat the count. Makes you wonder what the over/under was for how many rounds this was supposed to go.
But due to the low quality of the video, it's hard to see(but not impossible) just how hard Vitali railed Orlin in the chin with the right hand prior to the left jab.
Looks to me like Orlin make a conscious effort not to get hit like that again... More so than a pre-determined decision to take a dive.
dittoIrishRufusMurphy wrote:Speaking of that, I read somewhere that they made into law that evveryone 130 pounds and up have to wear 10 ounce gloves, because of the 'brain damage' factor.
For one, gloves are not and never were made to cushion the blows to the head, they were made so that a fighters hands wouldnt break as easily. All that law is doing, in my opinion, is adding more fuel to the fire, all it will do is make fighters be able to throw more punches and in short, the fatalities will rise.
Same thing with headgear. Headgear was NEVER made to cushion blows to a fighters head, but to protect them from getting cut. I have used headgear sparring and myself I think it's more junk than anything useful. It cuts off your side vision, doesn't protect your chin, and [in my opinion] hurts worse getting hit to the head with the head-gear on than off.
As far as licensing ANY fighter, no matter what his rank is, who has brain damage is idiotic. And in a broader sense it's worse for a higher ranked fighter with brain damage to be licensed---not only because the competition is much greater and you're more able to get hurt, but all this does in the long run is give boxing a blackeye to the MAIN STREAM.
Boxing gets enough bad press, let alone having some guy whose reflexes are slower and one more bad hit could make him a vegetable, be on the next PPV for the world to see him get possibly killed.
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
I hear what you are saying Irish, but doesn't Mesi have test results that show he doesn't have brain damage and that is why he got his licence back?IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Speaking of that, I read somewhere that they made into law that evveryone 130 pounds and up have to wear 10 ounce gloves, because of the 'brain damage' factor.
For one, gloves are not and never were made to cushion the blows to the head, they were made so that a fighters hands wouldnt break as easily. All that law is doing, in my opinion, is adding more fuel to the fire, all it will do is make fighters be able to throw more punches and in short, the fatalities will rise.
Same thing with headgear. Headgear was NEVER made to cushion blows to a fighters head, but to protect them from getting cut. I have used headgear sparring and myself I think it's more junk than anything useful. It cuts off your side vision, doesn't protect your chin, and [in my opinion] hurts worse getting hit to the head with the head-gear on than off.
As far as licensing ANY fighter, no matter what his rank is, who has brain damage is idiotic. And in a broader sense it's worse for a higher ranked fighter with brain damage to be licensed---not only because the competition is much greater and you're more able to get hurt, but all this does in the long run is give boxing a blackeye to the MAIN STREAM.
Boxing gets enough bad press, let alone having some guy whose reflexes are slower and one more bad hit could make him a vegetable, be on the next PPV for the world to see him get possibly killed.
I thought he was in the same category as McCullough in that he originally failed a test but has now passed the same test?
Are they at more risk than other boxers who have never failed a test? Impossible to say I guess. Only time will tell.
I guess what I'm saying is that if a guy can 'prove' he is fit to box who are we to tell him otherwise?
I recall the British Boxing Board of Control wouldn't licence Julian Jackson but it didn't stop him crushing Herol Graham.
Sonny Liston made an interesting comment when a reporter suggested to him that Floyd Patterson might be wise to consider retirement in the immediate aftermath of their 2nd fight. Liston said "Who am I to tell a bird not to fly."
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Two of Mesi's own doctors said he didn't have brain damage that could permit him from fighting...but the doctor in Las Vegas says that he does.
To a degree I agree that nobody should tell someone to stop doing what they love...some birds feathers are just too bright to be caged, ya know? But I think in some cases, it's more a benefit to save them from themselves.
Of course, just because the USA or UK tells a fighter to quit, doesnt mean he cant just run off to some BFE Indian Reservation or some place like the Bahamas or China, where there is no quarrells...trust me, if there is a will there is a way, someone wants to fight badly enough they'll do it.
Take for instance John L. Sullivan vs Jake Kilrain...was banned throughout the entire country and both fighters were threatened with fines and jail time if the bare-knuckle contest happened....and what did they do?
In secrecy they built the fight up in the middle of no where in Mississippi and held the fight anyways. lol
To a degree I agree that nobody should tell someone to stop doing what they love...some birds feathers are just too bright to be caged, ya know? But I think in some cases, it's more a benefit to save them from themselves.
Of course, just because the USA or UK tells a fighter to quit, doesnt mean he cant just run off to some BFE Indian Reservation or some place like the Bahamas or China, where there is no quarrells...trust me, if there is a will there is a way, someone wants to fight badly enough they'll do it.
Take for instance John L. Sullivan vs Jake Kilrain...was banned throughout the entire country and both fighters were threatened with fines and jail time if the bare-knuckle contest happened....and what did they do?
In secrecy they built the fight up in the middle of no where in Mississippi and held the fight anyways. lol