Historians' Lists

[Ezzard]

Might be good to have a sticky thread where people can post the rankings of historians.

I know that I would like it.

Be good to state the date the list was created.

[Ezzard]

From Gilbert Odd (1985)

1-Muhammad Ali
2-Joe Louis
3-Jack Johnson
4-Floyd Patterson
5-Jack Dempsey
6-Jim Jeffries
7-Tommy Burns
8-Gene Tunney
9-Jim Corbett
10-Max Schmeling
11-Larry Holmes
12-Jack Sharkey
13-Jim Braddock
14-Ezzard Charles
15-Rocky Marciano
16-Joe Frazier
17-Bob Fitzsimmons
18-John L. Sullivan
19-Jersey Joe Walcott
20-Max Baer
21-Ingemar Johansson
22-Primo Carnera
23-Sonny Liston
24-Jess Willard
25-Marvin Hart

[Ezzard]

From Monte Cox's 'Cox's Corner'

https://coxscorner.tripod.com/heavylists.htm

Nat Fleischer, Founder of Ring Magazine, 1958, 1971.

Jack Johnson

Jim Jeffries

Bob Fitzsimmons

Jack Dempsey

Jim Corbett

Joe Louis

Sam Langford

Gene Tunney

Max Schemling

Rocky Marciano


Charley Rose, 1968

Sam Langford

Jack Johnson

Jack Dempsey

Joe Louis

Jim Jeffries

Gene Tunney

Sam McVey

Rocky Marciano

Jim Corbett

Max Baer


World Boxing 1974 Readers Poll

Joe Louis

Jack Dempsey

Rocky Marciano

Jack Johnson

Muhammad Ali

Joe Frazier

Gene Tunney

Jim Jeffries

Sonny Liston

Ezzard Charles


Nat Loubet, 1975

Joe Louis

Jack Dempsey

Jim Jeffries

Jack Johnson

Rocky Marciano

Gene Tunney

Bob Fitzsimmons

James J. Corbett

Muhammad Ali

Joe Frazier


Survey of Old Timers (Encyclopedia of World Boxing Champions, John McCallum), 1975

James J. Jeffries

Jack Johnson

Bob Fitzsimmons

James J. Corbett

Jack Dempsey

John L. Sullivan

Gene Tunney

Joe Louis

Rocky Marciano

Muhammad Ali


John Durant -Author of "The Heavyweight Champions" (1976)

Joe Louis

Jack Johnson

Jack Dempsey

Muhammad Ali

Gene Tunney

Joe Frazier

Jim Jeffries

James J. Corbett

Rocky Marciano

Max Schemling


Bill Brennan 1978 (Former President of the WBA)

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Jack Dempsey

Jack Johnson

Gene Tunney

Jim Jeffries

Max Schemeling

Rocky Marciano

James J. Corebett

Bob Fitzsimmons


Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Rocky Marciano

Jack Dempsey

Jack Johnson

Gene Tunney

Joe Frazier

Jim Jeffries

Ezzard Charles

Sonny Liston


Sports Illustrated, 1979

Jack Johnson

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Jack Dempsey

Rocky Marciano

Gee Tunney

Sam Langford

Jersey Joe Walcott

Floyd Patterson

Ezzard Charles


Gilbert Odd, 1985 (Kings of the Ring)

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Jack Johnson

Floyd Patterson

Jack Dempsey

Jim Jeffries

Tommy Burns

Gene Tunney

Jim Corbett

Max Schmeling


Arthur Harris, 1992 (Nov 1992 Boxing Scene)

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Jack Dempsey

Jack Johnson

Gene Tunney

Rocky Marciano

Larry Holmes

Jersey Joe Walcott

Joe Frazier

Sonny Liston


Nigel Collins, 1997

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Evander Holyfield

Larry Holmes

George Foreman

Jack Johnson

Rocky Marciano

Joe Frazier

Jack Dempsey

Sonny Liston


Herbert Goldman, 1997

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Sonny Liston

Mike Tyson

Larry Holmes

Jack Johnson

Jack Dempsey

George Foreman

Rocky Marciano

Joe Frazier


Steve Farhood, 1997

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Jack Johnson

Larry Holmes

Rocky Marciano

Jack Dempsey

Jim Jeffries

Evander Holyfield

Mike Tyson

George Foreman


Tracy Callis, Cyberboxingzone, 1999

Jim Jeffries

Jack Johnson

Jack Dempsey

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Gene Tunney

Jim Corbett

Sonny Liston

Rocky Marciano

Larry Holmes


BBC Sports, 2004

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Jack Johnson

Larry Holmes

Jack Dempsey

Rocky Marciano

Lennox Lewis

Mike Tyson

George Foreman

Evander Holyfield


IBRO Member Poll, 2005

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Jack Johnson

Jack Dempsey

Rocky Marciano

Larry Holmes

James Jeffries

George Foreman

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier


ESPN, 2007 Reader Poll

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Jack Dempsey

Jack Johnson

Gene Tunney

Rocky Marciano

Ezzard Charles

George Foreman

Joe Frazier

Larry Holmes


Richard O'Brien (Sports Illustrated Senior Editor) 2009

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Sonny Liston

Larry Holmes

Jack Johnson

Jack Dempsey

George Foreman

Joe Frazier

Rocky Marciano

Lennox Lewis


Bert Sugar, 2011 (Ultimate Book of Boxing Lists)

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Jack Johnson

Jack Dempsey

Gene Tunney

Rocky Marciano

George Foreman

Larry Holmes

Sam Langford

Joe Frazier


Teddy Atlas, 2011 (Ultimate Book of Boxing Lists)

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Jack Johnson

Rocky Marciano

Gene Tunney

Jack Dempsey

Sam Langford

John L. Sullivan

Larry Holmes

sonny Liston


Matt Hamilton, Esnewsreporting.com, 2012

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Jack Johnson

Joe Frazier

Sam Langford

George Foreman

Jack Dempsey

Larry Holmes

Rocky Marciano

Gene Tunney


Tyson Bruce, www.boxinginsider.com, 2014

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Larry Holmes

Jack Johnson

Rocky Marciano

George Foreman

Lennox Lewis

Jack Dempsey

Evander Holyfield

Joe Frazier


Mike Casey, sites.google.com/site/alltimeboxingrankings, 2015

Jack Dempsey

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Jack Johnson

Rocky Marciano

Jim Jeffries

George Foreman

Joe Frazier

Sonny Liston

Lennox Lewis


Tony Connolly, Boxing News, Dec 2015

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Jack Johnson

Larry Holmes

George Foreman

Joe Frazier

Sonny Liston

Rocky Marciano

Lennox Lewis

Mike Tyson


IBRO Member Poll, 2019

Muhammad Ali

Joe Louis

Jack Dempsey

Larry Holmes

George Foreman

Jack Johnson

Rocky Marciano

Sonny Liston

Lennox Lewis

Joe Frazier


Larry Merchant, Former HBO Boxing Analyst, 2024

Muhammad Ali

Larry Holmes

Joe Louis

Lennox Lewis

Rocky Marciano

Jack Dempsey

Evander Holyfield

Mike Tyson

George Foreman

Joe Frazier

[Ambling Alp II]

Some of these are comically bad. Gilbert Odds might have been the worst. His first three aren't bad, then it falls apart. Patterson is #4 and Sonny Liston #23?
Looking at his list, it looks like he thought of the names and then just drew them out of hat as to who goes where.

Nat Fleischer was notorious for going overboard in favoring the Old Timers. We aren't just talking borderline cases here.

Some of them were not too bad with the exception of one or two picks. BBC poll was not bad.
Jeffries did better in some of these polls than you might think.

[Ezzard]

Just depends on the criteria is all.

I think Odd gives Floyd and Burns more respect for historical reasons.

[Ambling Alp II]

Would love to know his criteria. Even if he just going on "historical" purposes, it still doesn't make a lot of sense. Sharkey is #12? He is more important historically (or for any other reason) than Joe Frazier?

Guessing that how much he liked the guy is a huge factor here.
I have a book by him and thought it was decent. I am shocked at how bad this list is.

Jimmy Braddock is #13? Beating Baer got him that high?
Charles is ahead of Marciano?
George Foreman did not make the cut at all? Wow.
You can go on and on with other examples of how bad his list is.

[Ezzard]

Almost nobody had Foreman top 10 before the comeback.

And Tunney almost always made the top 10.

[Caractacus]

well, first names some Boxing historians.
( and then rank them)

Burt Sugar (1936-2012)comes to mind.
Barney Nagler (1911-1990)too

[Ambling Alp II]

Foreman was a bit underrated after he retired in 1977. This was after his poor performance in losing to Jimmy Young. He really disappeared for 10 years before his comeback. He wasn't on talk shows, commercials or anything like that at all. A lot of people seemed to have forgot about him.

But Gilbert Odd had a Top 25 list and Foreman did not make it. Marvin Hart, Jess Willard, and Primo Carnera all made it. That's beyond ridiculous.

Tunney was an interesting case. I have always defended him against people who vastly underrate him. Top 10 is pushing it, though. Some of these polls were a long time before some of these guys even fought (Lewis, Holyfield, Holmes, etc.) so it makes more sense. Some people don't like to rate current fighters at the time either.

However, Teddy Atlas and Bert Sugar had in the top 10 in 2011, which is of course silly. I think some people like to throw in a surprise that they don't really believe themselves.

[Caractacus]

IMOP, Gene Tunney and Archie Moore should also be considered ring 'historians".

[pound per pound]

Some of these are comically bad. Gilbert Odds might have been the worst. His first three aren't bad, then it falls apart. Patterson is #4 and Sonny Liston #23?
Looking at his list, it looks like he thought of the names and then just drew them out of hat as to who goes where.

Nat Fleischer was notorious for going overboard in favoring the Old Timers. We aren't just talking borderline cases here.

Some of them were not too bad with the exception of one or two picks. BBC poll was not bad.
Jeffries did better in some of these polls than you might think.

Odd's list was well odd.

Nat Fleischer's list is mocked today, but the man died in Jan 1972 right? His list came out in the 1960's and is unique in that he saw nearly everybody live in the ring and some films are lost. But it was only good until the 1960s!

Boxing has evolved greatly; some say the fights are no longer great. But the athletes competing at heavyweight are much bigger, stronger, and longer. In my view they hit harder too. Lots of er's

Greatest means many things. Great in his era for sure. Head to head is a totally different story. This is why I prefer to use Ring Magazine Rankings as they go back 100 year and judge the all vs. the fields on W's and L's while paying close attention to the age and the condition of the fighters when the fights happened with ranked fighters.

[Ambling Alp II]

yeah it was odd. Some of the others were almost as bad.

I hate the word "evolved". It implies better. I don't think the sport is better. This is not like technology where you can just build on what came before and should always get better and better.

I think when a sport first starts, there is going to naturally be a lot of improvement for awhile. New techniques and strategies are going to be developed. But then after a while, the progress naturally slows down and eventually stops. Specific weight classes go up and down as far as quality goes.

If a guy was great, he was great Doesn't matter if he is fighting now or 120 years ago.

you do have to take into consideration when the poll was made; obviously you can't rate someone that has not come along yet.

It is interesting to see what people come up with. Noticed that Sonny Liston seemed to get rated higher as the years went on.

[funso banjo baby]

Gosh, these are tricky.
Someone else mentioned criteria.
The basic top ten seems pretty consistent apart from lunatics like Gilbert odd`s etc. Several names are quite problematic. One thing that unites Sonny Liston and George Foreman is there before and afters.

I find it super hard to compare the different eras and I don't know how it's even possible? It could be argued that Jack Johnson`s era was a entirely different sport.

[Ezzard]

I guess there is the idea of who they beat. How good those guys were. And how broad the opposition was.

Then there are achievements like being champion. Defences. Comebacks. Historical significance.

On top of that is the traits and skills they showed in the ring.

But it's all just down to how you want to reward different factors.

[pound per pound]

yeah it was odd. Some of the others were almost as bad.

I hate the word "evolved". It implies better. I don't think the sport is better. This is not like technology where you can just build on what came before and should always get better and better.

I think when a sport first starts, there is going to naturally be a lot of improvement for awhile. New techniques and strategies are going to be developed. But then after a while, the progress naturally slows down and eventually stops. Specific weight classes go up and down as far as quality goes.

If a guy was great, he was great Doesn't matter if he is fighting now or 120 years ago.

you do have to take into consideration when the poll was made; obviously you can't rate someone that has not come along yet.

It is interesting to see what people come up with. Noticed that Sonny Liston seemed to get rated higher as the years went on.

You don't have to like or dislike it. Heavyweights around today are in fact much bigger, taller, heavier, longer, and more powerful than the were 100, 75, 50 , of even 35 years ago in general.

They are in fact a different weight class.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Top post, Ez

Of course literally Fleischer was a one man unit posting fighter records and providing a top heavyweight list. I posted the open letter he published after Ali fans swamped him with requests to make Ali a top heavywt in spite of just being well whooped by Frazier. Since he passed, what, 50 years ago, of course he seems outdated.

Anyway, I'm an observer, not a historian who are Johnny come latelys after Fleischer. They seldom record reasons.

I posted this about a year ago with criteria quite a bit different than the usual suspects who tend to ape each other.

This list is the boxing and world impact, both of which have the biggest influence in boxing.

1.Joe Louis…It don’t get any bigger worldwide than the rematch with Max Schmeling on the eve of WW2 in a bout that was relayed worldwide via the nascent radio of the era. Joe was the first black American heavyweight the overwhelming white majority could rally around and set the stage for the post WW2 integration of Major League Baseball and the US armed forces and subsequent civil rights movements. Need I add that Joe was also a major inspiration in the development of Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King as young boys avidly listening to his fights on the radio?

2.The Klitschko brothers…Their collective was 109-7, 94 KO and never once took a ten count that averages ot to 55-4, 47 KO. Between them they moved the heavyweight division to Germany and knocked Don King out of the heavy division to usher in the continuing saga of East European dominance of the heavier boxing divisions.

3.Bob Fitzsimmons…A rare trifecta of being part the first proposed full length feature cinematographic project by Thomas Edison’s Black Maria Studio, the first title fight against James J Corbett to be held in Dallas, Texas, circa 1895 that was cancelled when the Texas Legislature made prize fighting illegal. The always overly dramatic Corbett publicly forfeited his title that was then fought over near Langtry, Texas by Fitz and Peter Maher.

Maher had previously claimed the forfeited Corbett title in November of 1895 against Steve O’Donnell with a 1st rd KO. Fitz and Maher were situated in 1896 on a spit island in the middle of the Rio Grande(Bravo) for the first failed full length feature cinematographic project by Thomas Edison. Tragically the crew could not not get properly set up in misty conditions before Maher became his own victim of a first round KO as his claims to the title transferred to Ruby Robert. Whatever may have been filmed has thus far been lost in time though hope springs eternal that it may possibly turn up.

The 1897 Corbett vs Fitz fight held in Reno, Nevada, the first ever successful full length feature film that additionally became the first ever national and international blockbuster that established art of cinematography permanently in the world. Subsequently James J Jeffries helped develop the art of cinematography further when he knocked out Fitz to claim the title though sadly almost all of the Jeffries film has be either lost or waiting to be rediscovered. The first non boxing blockbuster featuring actors was The Great Train Robbery 6 years later in 1903, a film of only 10 minutes for perspective that introduced the first ever silent screen star to the public, Bronco Billy.

4.John L Sullivan, 39-1-1, 33 KO. John L was the first and only unified Bareknucks and Gloved Queensbury champ and the first American to consolidate titles that had previously belonged exclusively to the British. John L first set up the worldwide heavyweight stage in a growing age of literacy and media expansion, where they remained save for a nanoblip by Ingemar Johansson for a century before Lennox Lewis upset the American monopoly.

5A.Jack Dempsey, 55-6-8, 45 KO. Established the modern spectacle of boxing that is seldom matched and never exceeded. Also held the 1st round Hvywt KO record until Briggs broke it.

5B.Muhammad Ali, 56-5, 37 KO. Perhaps the 2nd best known fighter in the world only exceeded by the modern phenomenon of Manny Pacquiao and his 3 billion Asian population base enhanced with modern communication broadcasting.

5C.Mike Tyson, 50-6, 44 KO. Youngest ever champ who cleaned up the derelict post Ali era to unify the titles and temporarily wipe Don King’s slate clean. He had already held the record for career purse earnings before King and Robin Givens ever sunk their claws into him.

OK, now, and what about the greatest records?

1.Joe Louis, 66-3, 52 KO. Nominally his 26(27)-1 heavyweight title records were exceeded, but, overall never surpassed. The 27th was Lee Savold who claimed both the white heavy title and the BBBC heavyweight title that Joe is seldom credited with after knocking him out.

2.The Klitschko brothers, 109-7, 94 KO and bukos title fights with nary a 10 count between them. Collectively they smashed the Louis record, and though individually Wlad exceeded his total career heavyweight title fights, he fell short of the overall Louis record. They may well hold the heavyweight record of the most winning rounds scored as overmatched opponents seldom penetrated their defense. More importantly they put down Don King for years of 10 counts and transferred heavyweight title fights to Germany-HERESY to be sure!

3.Rocky, 49-0, 43 KO. The most iconic record in all of boxing. My next door neighbor who knows shinola about boxing can recite Rocky’s record like a mantra.

4.Sam Langford, 178-29-39, 126 KO. Mere numerical records FAIL to capture Sam’s greatness, not the least being the sheer number of fights he had against HOF fighters that greatly exceed all such fights by other fighters.

5.Anthony Joshua, 22-0, 21 KO. Going into his 8th title fight as a unified belt holder, no heavyweight as yet has done as much with such a limited number of fights. I always like to include a current great in rankings just to PO dusty mossbacks not understanding that all the greats in the making were moderns in their day as Josh is.

Consolidating the two lists by working backwards using my fighter ratings as their points totals, that’s Josh with 5 points, Sam with 4 points, Rocky with 3 points, The Ks with 2, and Louis with 1.

Then we have Dempsey, Ali, and Tyson tied with 5 each, John L with 4, Fitz at 3, the Ks at 2 and Louis at 1.

Adding up the two lists with fighters not appearing on both lists being assigned a place value of 6 to keep my rankings on keel, That’s Louis 1+1 with 2 pts, the Ks 2+2 with 4, Fitz 3+6 with 9, John L 4+6 with 10, Dempsey, Ali, and Tyson, all 5+6 with 11 each, Josh 5+6 with 11, Sam with 10, Rocky with 7. Divided by 2 to get the final point rankings in numerical order:Louis 1, Ks 2, Rocky 3.5, Fitz 4.5, John L 5, Sam 5, and Dempsey, Ali, Tyson, and Josh 5.5

Translated into standard numerical ranking order:Louis 1, Ks 2, Rocky 3, Fitz 4, John L 5A and Sam 5B, Dempsey, Ali, Tyson, and Joshua 7A, 7B, 7C, 7 D.

So technically that 11 heavyweights if we split the Klitschko brothers, but they were such a dominating force in boxing that they really have to be consolidated as one unit to understand their impact.

[Ezzard]

- Top post, Ez

Of course literally Fleischer was a one man unit posting fighter records and providing a top heavyweight list. I posted the open letter he published after Ali fans swamped him with requests to make Ali a top heavywt in spite of just being well whooped by Frazier. Since he passed, what, 50 years ago, of course he seems outdated.

Anyway, I'm an observer, not a historian who are Johnny come latelys after Fleischer. They seldom record reasons.

I posted this about a year ago with criteria quite a bit different than the usual suspects who tend to ape each other.

This list is the boxing and world impact, both of which have the biggest influence in boxing.

1.Joe Louis…It don’t get any bigger worldwide than the rematch with Max Schmeling on the eve of WW2 in a bout that was relayed worldwide via the nascent radio of the era. Joe was the first black American heavyweight the overwhelming white majority could rally around and set the stage for the post WW2 integration of Major League Baseball and the US armed forces and subsequent civil rights movements. Need I add that Joe was also a major inspiration in the development of Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King as young boys avidly listening to his fights on the radio?

2.The Klitschko brothers…Their collective was 109-7, 94 KO and never once took a ten count that averages ot to 55-4, 47 KO. Between them they moved the heavyweight division to Germany and knocked Don King out of the heavy division to usher in the continuing saga of East European dominance of the heavier boxing divisions.

3.Bob Fitzsimmons…A rare trifecta of being part the first proposed full length feature cinematographic project by Thomas Edison’s Black Maria Studio, the first title fight against James J Corbett to be held in Dallas, Texas, circa 1895 that was cancelled when the Texas Legislature made prize fighting illegal. The always overly dramatic Corbett publicly forfeited his title that was then fought over near Langtry, Texas by Fitz and Peter Maher.

Maher had previously claimed the forfeited Corbett title in November of 1895 against Steve O’Donnell with a 1st rd KO. Fitz and Maher were situated in 1896 on a spit island in the middle of the Rio Grande(Bravo) for the first failed full length feature cinematographic project by Thomas Edison. Tragically the crew could not not get properly set up in misty conditions before Maher became his own victim of a first round KO as his claims to the title transferred to Ruby Robert. Whatever may have been filmed has thus far been lost in time though hope springs eternal that it may possibly turn up.

The 1897 Corbett vs Fitz fight held in Reno, Nevada, the first ever successful full length feature film that additionally became the first ever national and international blockbuster that established art of cinematography permanently in the world. Subsequently James J Jeffries helped develop the art of cinematography further when he knocked out Fitz to claim the title though sadly almost all of the Jeffries film has be either lost or waiting to be rediscovered. The first non boxing blockbuster featuring actors was The Great Train Robbery 6 years later in 1903, a film of only 10 minutes for perspective that introduced the first ever silent screen star to the public, Bronco Billy.

4.John L Sullivan, 39-1-1, 33 KO. John L was the first and only unified Bareknucks and Gloved Queensbury champ and the first American to consolidate titles that had previously belonged exclusively to the British. John L first set up the worldwide heavyweight stage in a growing age of literacy and media expansion, where they remained save for a nanoblip by Ingemar Johansson for a century before Lennox Lewis upset the American monopoly.

5A.Jack Dempsey, 55-6-8, 45 KO. Established the modern spectacle of boxing that is seldom matched and never exceeded. Also held the 1st round Hvywt KO record until Briggs broke it.

5B.Muhammad Ali, 56-5, 37 KO. Perhaps the 2nd best known fighter in the world only exceeded by the modern phenomenon of Manny Pacquiao and his 3 billion Asian population base enhanced with modern communication broadcasting.

5C.Mike Tyson, 50-6, 44 KO. Youngest ever champ who cleaned up the derelict post Ali era to unify the titles and temporarily wipe Don King’s slate clean. He had already held the record for career purse earnings before King and Robin Givens ever sunk their claws into him.

OK, now, and what about the greatest records?

1.Joe Louis, 66-3, 52 KO. Nominally his 26(27)-1 heavyweight title records were exceeded, but, overall never surpassed. The 27th was Lee Savold who claimed both the white heavy title and the BBBC heavyweight title that Joe is seldom credited with after knocking him out.

2.The Klitschko brothers, 109-7, 94 KO and bukos title fights with nary a 10 count between them. Collectively they smashed the Louis record, and though individually Wlad exceeded his total career heavyweight title fights, he fell short of the overall Louis record. They may well hold the heavyweight record of the most winning rounds scored as overmatched opponents seldom penetrated their defense. More importantly they put down Don King for years of 10 counts and transferred heavyweight title fights to Germany-HERESY to be sure!

3.Rocky, 49-0, 43 KO. The most iconic record in all of boxing. My next door neighbor who knows shinola about boxing can recite Rocky’s record like a mantra.

4.Sam Langford, 178-29-39, 126 KO. Mere numerical records FAIL to capture Sam’s greatness, not the least being the sheer number of fights he had against HOF fighters that greatly exceed all such fights by other fighters.

5.Anthony Joshua, 22-0, 21 KO. Going into his 8th title fight as a unified belt holder, no heavyweight as yet has done as much with such a limited number of fights. I always like to include a current great in rankings just to PO dusty mossbacks not understanding that all the greats in the making were moderns in their day as Josh is.

Consolidating the two lists by working backwards using my fighter ratings as their points totals, that’s Josh with 5 points, Sam with 4 points, Rocky with 3 points, The Ks with 2, and Louis with 1.

Then we have Dempsey, Ali, and Tyson tied with 5 each, John L with 4, Fitz at 3, the Ks at 2 and Louis at 1.

Adding up the two lists with fighters not appearing on both lists being assigned a place value of 6 to keep my rankings on keel, That’s Louis 1+1 with 2 pts, the Ks 2+2 with 4, Fitz 3+6 with 9, John L 4+6 with 10, Dempsey, Ali, and Tyson, all 5+6 with 11 each, Josh 5+6 with 11, Sam with 10, Rocky with 7. Divided by 2 to get the final point rankings in numerical order:Louis 1, Ks 2, Rocky 3.5, Fitz 4.5, John L 5, Sam 5, and Dempsey, Ali, Tyson, and Josh 5.5

Translated into standard numerical ranking order:Louis 1, Ks 2, Rocky 3, Fitz 4, John L 5A and Sam 5B, Dempsey, Ali, Tyson, and Joshua 7A, 7B, 7C, 7 D.

So technically that 11 heavyweights if we split the Klitschko brothers, but they were such a dominating force in boxing that they really have to be consolidated as one unit to understand their impact.

Does Dempsey deserve a little more love in list one?

Love your words on Nat.

[Ezzard]

And that's two Brits in your top 10/11 so it must be the gold standard:TU:

[Ambling Alp II]

yeah it was odd. Some of the others were almost as bad.

I hate the word "evolved". It implies better. I don't think the sport is better. This is not like technology where you can just build on what came before and should always get better and better.

I think when a sport first starts, there is going to naturally be a lot of improvement for awhile. New techniques and strategies are going to be developed. But then after a while, the progress naturally slows down and eventually stops. Specific weight classes go up and down as far as quality goes.

If a guy was great, he was great Doesn't matter if he is fighting now or 120 years ago.

you do have to take into consideration when the poll was made; obviously you can't rate someone that has not come along yet.

It is interesting to see what people come up with. Noticed that Sonny Liston seemed to get rated higher as the years went on.

You don't have to like or dislike it. Heavyweights around today are in fact much bigger, taller, heavier, longer, and more powerful than the were 100, 75, 50 , of even 35 years ago in general.

They are in fact a different weight class.

Not more powerful, much slower, less stamina. i.e. they suck.

[Ambling Alp II]

Of those listed, this one is probably the best. don't agree with all of it, but it's not ridiculous.


Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Rocky Marciano

Jack Dempsey

Jack Johnson

Gene Tunney

Joe Frazier

Jim Jeffries

Ezzard Charles

Sonny Liston

[elmersalsa]

Most historians got Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis as #1.

When Ali was fighting in the 70s decade, Louis was the defacto #1.

[Ezzard]

We are all just looking at it from where we are in history and the ideas that are popular now. These gents were doing the same.

[Ezzard]

They almost always only consider champions. Not that this is wrong. But in the multi-belt era this is tricky.

When I became a big fan in the early 1980s the lineal title was a big deal. Now fans don't seem to care. Or even try to undermine the idea, which always seems odd.

If you don't care for the lineal then Holmes's reign isn't quite the same. And neither is Foreman's second win. They were great achievements still. But they were title holders rather than champions in the old sense.

I do still think there is merit to the lineal.

[elmersalsa]

Of those listed, this one is probably the best. don't agree with all of it, but it's not ridiculous.


Big Book of Boxing Reader Poll, 1978

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Rocky Marciano

Jack Dempsey

Jack Johnson

Gene Tunney

Joe Frazier

Jim Jeffries

Ezzard Charles

Sonny Liston

At the time, 46 years ago, this was a great list.

[cfang]

Always the weirdest list ever this one.

From Gilbert Odd (1985)

1-Muhammad Ali
2-Joe Louis
3-Jack Johnson
4-Floyd Patterson
5-Jack Dempsey
6-Jim Jeffries
7-Tommy Burns
8-Gene Tunney
9-Jim Corbett
10-Max Schmeling
11-Larry Holmes
12-Jack Sharkey
13-Jim Braddock
14-Ezzard Charles
15-Rocky Marciano
16-Joe Frazier
17-Bob Fitzsimmons
18-John L. Sullivan
19-Jersey Joe Walcott
20-Max Baer
21-Ingemar Johansson
22-Primo Carnera
23-Sonny Liston
24-Jess Willard
25-Marvin Hart