Tyson

[Ambling Alp II]

Idiotic to think that Tyson would not be a heavyweight today. He could beat very good heavyweights and made a ton of $. His ideal weight was well over 200. Nobody is going to somehow try to get down to cruiserweight if they can do that.

[Cojimar 1946]

You don't have to be Tyson-McBride level shot for fights not to matter legacy wise. I think its ridiculous to hold the Ngannou or McDermott fights against Fury because as I pointed out Holyfield had good performances post Toney/Donald and those fights are rarely brought up to disparage him. Same with Duran in the late 80s/early 90s despite the Castro win.

Fury is largely fighting other faded past-prime fighters like Whyte, Chisora, Usyk who are his age or older. If he was facing young prime contenders he'd probably have a lot more trouble. I'm also skeptical that the 2024 Usyk is the best heavyweight in the world given he hasn't fought most of the young prime guys like Wardley, Itauma, etc. A few years ago he was probably number one but maybe not anymore.

Ali probably starts at cruiserweight and might move up after unifying. He has a lot of height and reach on Tyson and can fight well backing up so he probably does better at heavyweight than Tyson

Usyk knocked out Dubois who is young, fit, strong and who just smashed AJ to bits. Usyk also beat AJ twice plus Fury. Itauma and Wardley are untested, that’s a silly argument. Usyk clearly the number one HW based on his achievements so far. You could say this about every fighter, there’s always a new kid on the block who in theory could give the champ a hard fight.

Your Ali argument makes no sense, you are saying Tyson is too small yet he was heavier than Ali. Ali didn’t weigh 220 until his 33rd fight and he was around 6’2” so not a giant like a lot of other HWs

As I've pointed out there are plenty of examples of aged past prime fighters scoring good wins. Does Duran beating the young, fit, strong Jorge Castro suddenly make him prime? Fury can be a shell of his former self and still enjoy some success especially against other aged fighters.

Dubois lost to Joyce and was dropped 3 times by Kevin Lerena. We don't get to suddenly forget those fights because he beat AJ. Nobody's hyping Joyce or Lerena as anything special. Him beating AJ is probably more a sign that Joshua is overrated than Dubois being amazing.

You can believe Usyk is the best if you want but I'd need to see the current version fight and beat some young prime contenders to consider it more than conjecture. He's been given opportunities they haven't had and won't get. Fury and Joshua are NEVER getting in the ring with Wardley or Itauma as they both seem very risk averse.

[Riddick Bowie]

I wonder what people are trying to achieve when they engage Cojimar.

[Cojimar 1946]

I wonder what people are trying to achieve when they engage Cojimar.

I was objecting to people claiming the Ngannou fight is relevant to Fury's legacy. If you can argue otherwise would love to hear your reasoning
Also why are people trying to sweep all the massive upsets from the 1990s under the rug and pretend they don't negatively impact the era as a whole while taking the opposite stance whenever it suits them. Wlad's losses to Purrity, Brewster, and Sanders are a big no-no but Lewis's to Rahman and McCall are irrelevant?

[Controversial]

I wonder what people are trying to achieve when they engage Cojimar.

I was objecting to people claiming the Ngannou fight is relevant to Fury's legacy. If you can argue otherwise would love to hear your reasoning
Also why are people trying to sweep all the massive upsets from the 1990s under the rug and pretend they don't negatively impact the era as a whole while taking the opposite stance whenever it suits them. Wlad's losses to Purrity, Brewster, and Sanders are a big no-no but Lewis's to Rahman and McCall are irrelevant?

I don’t think the Ngannou fight is relevant but Fury is still far closer to his best than Mike Tyson was at the end of his career, if we say Tyson was at his best in 1988 then it was 16-17 years later he was losing to Williams etc, he was shot to pieces. In terms of Klitschko losses compared to Lewis I’m off the opinion at HW anyone can been knocked out if caught. The difference for me would be Lewis avenged both by stoppage but also his overall career was far superior in who he beat compared to Klitschko. In terms of Usyk dodging 10 fight novice Itouma who has just started fighting 10 rounders, hasn’t been past 6 or been tested by anyone with a pulse or real desire is just a ridiculous argument. Itouma hasn’t done anything yet to justify a world title shot and if he did get one now Usyk would deal with him without issue.

[keithmoonhangover]

Idiotic to think that Tyson would not be a heavyweight today. He could beat very good heavyweights and made a ton of $. His ideal weight was well over 200. Nobody is going to somehow try to get down to cruiserweight if they can do that.

I don't think this Cojimar kid realises that Cruiserweight was a division when Tyson was fighting.

[Controversial]

Idiotic to think that Tyson would not be a heavyweight today. He could beat very good heavyweights and made a ton of $. His ideal weight was well over 200. Nobody is going to somehow try to get down to cruiserweight if they can do that.

I don't think this Cojimar kid realises that Cruiserweight was a division when Tyson was fighting.

I think he meant if Tyson was around today he’d fight at CW as the HWs today are much bigger than they were when he fought. Even though the best HW today is only 220 and a former CW as well lol.

[keithmoonhangover]

Idiotic to think that Tyson would not be a heavyweight today. He could beat very good heavyweights and made a ton of $. His ideal weight was well over 200. Nobody is going to somehow try to get down to cruiserweight if they can do that.

I don't think this Cojimar kid realises that Cruiserweight was a division when Tyson was fighting.

I think he meant if Tyson was around today he’d fight at CW as the HWs today are much bigger than they were when he fought. Even though the best HW today is only 220 and a former CW as well lol.

So, he's saying that Tyson would happily sweat off another stone in weight so he could compete against Chris Billam-Smith and not Usyk? And he's also saying that Ali would be a cruiserweight today, even though he was the same height, weight and had the same reach as Usyk? Hmmm, interesting theory.

[Ezzard]

Likely they start off at CW then move to HW

[keithmoonhangover]

Likely they start off at CW then move to HW

Tyson weighed 214 on his debut. There is no way he would have made cruiserweight.

[Ezzard]

With the way they drain people these says who knows.

I reckon Bivol and Bet were 15 pounds heavier on fight night.

[keithmoonhangover]

With the way they drain people these says who knows.

I reckon Bivol and Bet were 15 pounds heavier on fight night.

But he had no reason to drop a stone just to compete at cruiserweight. He was a wrecking machine at heavyweight and would do the same coming up today. There aren't many good heavyweights out there who are taller than Tony Tucker (6' 5") and Tyson dominated him.

[Ezzard]

Handlers and management would put him in with smaller (easier) opposition and let him soak up the titles there. And then move him up to win the titles there. Risk/reward and all that...

There isn't a single prospect who doesn't do this.

[Ambling Alp II]

No they would not have. He already weighed 214 when he turned pro.
He won the heavyweight title about a year and a half after turning pro.
It would have made no sense whatsoever for Tyson to try to get down to cruiserweight in any era at any time during his career.

[Ezzard]

So he would be different to every other single prospect and how they are managed...

Well maybe. I have no idea.

But I'll follow the odds based upon how all of the other top prospects are managed.

[keithmoonhangover]

So he would be different to every other single prospect and how they are managed...

Well maybe. I have no idea.

But I'll follow the odds based upon how all of the other top prospects are managed.

Ezz, I like you and respect you, but this is nuts.

Cruiserweight was around when Tyson turned pro, so if they wanted him to fight at cruiserweight, he would have done it then.

There is zero point in Tyson sweating off a stone. He would not cut weight coming up the ranks, it would be completely pointless.

The guy at the top of the Heavyweight division is 6' 3", which is a height Tyson was comfortable beating.

[Controversial]

The CW division has been around since 1979

[Ezzard]

So he would be different to every other single prospect and how they are managed...

Well maybe. I have no idea.

But I'll follow the odds based upon how all of the other top prospects are managed.

Ezz, I like you and respect you, but this is nuts.

Cruiserweight was around when Tyson turned pro, so if they wanted him to fight at cruiserweight, he would have done it then.

There is zero point in Tyson sweating off a stone. He would not cut weight coming up the ranks, it would be completely pointless.

The guy at the top of the Heavyweight division is 6' 3", which is a height Tyson was comfortable beating.

CW was a different weight limit back then. If he could make the limit his handlers would have said beat these little fellas first. Then go to HW and you will be a former title holder and get bigger purses.

This is exactly what Pac, Floyd, Oscar, Loma, Usyk, Canelo, Crawford, Haney all did... The list goes on and on...

So...

Yes, maybe Tyson would not have done this.

But historical precendent says he more likely would than wouldn't.

[Controversial]

So he would be different to every other single prospect and how they are managed...

Well maybe. I have no idea.

But I'll follow the odds based upon how all of the other top prospects are managed.

Ezz, I like you and respect you, but this is nuts.

Cruiserweight was around when Tyson turned pro, so if they wanted him to fight at cruiserweight, he would have done it then.

There is zero point in Tyson sweating off a stone. He would not cut weight coming up the ranks, it would be completely pointless.

The guy at the top of the Heavyweight division is 6' 3", which is a height Tyson was comfortable beating.

CW was a different weight limit back then. If he could make the limit his handlers would have said beat these little fellas first. Then go to HW and you will be a former title holder and get bigger purses.

This is exactly what Pac, Floyd, Oscar, Loma, Usyk, Canelo, Crawford, Haney all did... The list goes on and on...

So...

Yes, maybe Tyson would not have done this.

But historical precendent says he more likely would than wouldn't.

From 1979-2003 it was 190 and then moved to 200 limit

[keithmoonhangover]

So he would be different to every other single prospect and how they are managed...

Well maybe. I have no idea.

But I'll follow the odds based upon how all of the other top prospects are managed.

Ezz, I like you and respect you, but this is nuts.

Cruiserweight was around when Tyson turned pro, so if they wanted him to fight at cruiserweight, he would have done it then.

There is zero point in Tyson sweating off a stone. He would not cut weight coming up the ranks, it would be completely pointless.

The guy at the top of the Heavyweight division is 6' 3", which is a height Tyson was comfortable beating.

CW was a different weight limit back then. If he could make the limit his handlers would have said beat these little fellas first. Then go to HW and you will be a former title holder and get bigger purses.

This is exactly what Pac, Floyd, Oscar, Loma, Usyk, Canelo, Crawford, Haney all did... The list goes on and on...

So...

Yes, maybe Tyson would not have done this.

But historical precendent says he more likely would than wouldn't.

But even today's limit is a stone away from his lightest weight and he hardly ever fought anyone within today's cruiserweight limit.

Historical precendent says that when boxers are coming up and not fighting for a title, they weigh what they weigh. Look at ODLH, he was 133 on his debut and only boiled down to Super Feather when a title was on the line.

Mike Tyson steamrollered bigger men then and he would do it now. If anything, modern training methods would mean Tyson weighing in heavier, rather than lighter.

And finally, boxing is all about money and where's the money at, heavyweight. No way Tyson's manager ask him to boil down when he dispatches heavyweights with ease.

[Ezzard]

Ezz, I like you and respect you, but this is nuts.

Cruiserweight was around when Tyson turned pro, so if they wanted him to fight at cruiserweight, he would have done it then.

There is zero point in Tyson sweating off a stone. He would not cut weight coming up the ranks, it would be completely pointless.

The guy at the top of the Heavyweight division is 6' 3", which is a height Tyson was comfortable beating.

CW was a different weight limit back then. If he could make the limit his handlers would have said beat these little fellas first. Then go to HW and you will be a former title holder and get bigger purses.

This is exactly what Pac, Floyd, Oscar, Loma, Usyk, Canelo, Crawford, Haney all did... The list goes on and on...

So...

Yes, maybe Tyson would not have done this.

But historical precendent says he more likely would than wouldn't.

But even today's limit is a stone away from his lightest weight and he hardly ever fought anyone within today's cruiserweight limit.

Historical precendent says that when boxers are coming up and not fighting for a title, they weigh what they weigh. Look at ODLH, he was 133 on his debut and only boiled down to Super Feather when a title was on the line.

Mike Tyson steamrollered bigger men then and he would do it now. If anything, modern training methods would mean Tyson weighing in heavier, rather than lighter.

And finally, boxing is all about money and where's the money at, heavyweight. No way Tyson's manager ask him to boil down when he dispatches heavyweights with ease.

Yes, he would have steamrollered bigger men. That doesn't mean he wouldn't win a CW title. Just like Oscar. Michael Moorer. Usyk. And all the other top prospects. Every one of them has done it. It's highly unliklely Tyson would be any different.

[keithmoonhangover]

CW was a different weight limit back then. If he could make the limit his handlers would have said beat these little fellas first. Then go to HW and you will be a former title holder and get bigger purses.

This is exactly what Pac, Floyd, Oscar, Loma, Usyk, Canelo, Crawford, Haney all did... The list goes on and on...

So...

Yes, maybe Tyson would not have done this.

But historical precendent says he more likely would than wouldn't.

But even today's limit is a stone away from his lightest weight and he hardly ever fought anyone within today's cruiserweight limit.

Historical precendent says that when boxers are coming up and not fighting for a title, they weigh what they weigh. Look at ODLH, he was 133 on his debut and only boiled down to Super Feather when a title was on the line.

Mike Tyson steamrollered bigger men then and he would do it now. If anything, modern training methods would mean Tyson weighing in heavier, rather than lighter.

And finally, boxing is all about money and where's the money at, heavyweight. No way Tyson's manager ask him to boil down when he dispatches heavyweights with ease.

Yes, he would have steamrollered bigger men. That doesn't mean he wouldn't win a CW title. Just like Oscar. Michael Moorer. Usyk. And all the other top prospects. Every one of them has done it. It's highly unliklely Tyson would be any different.

You're being silly now. Moorer weighed 172 on his debut and competed at light heavy. Finally, he outgrew the light heavyweight division and moved directly up to heavy rather than fight at cruiser.

Usyk weighed just over 200 for his debut and competed at cruiserweight.

Tyson weighed 214 for his debut and that's why he competed at heavyweight. He never weighed anywhere near 200 and had no need to.

[Ezzard]

But even today's limit is a stone away from his lightest weight and he hardly ever fought anyone within today's cruiserweight limit.

Historical precendent says that when boxers are coming up and not fighting for a title, they weigh what they weigh. Look at ODLH, he was 133 on his debut and only boiled down to Super Feather when a title was on the line.

Mike Tyson steamrollered bigger men then and he would do it now. If anything, modern training methods would mean Tyson weighing in heavier, rather than lighter.

And finally, boxing is all about money and where's the money at, heavyweight. No way Tyson's manager ask him to boil down when he dispatches heavyweights with ease.

Yes, he would have steamrollered bigger men. That doesn't mean he wouldn't win a CW title. Just like Oscar. Michael Moorer. Usyk. And all the other top prospects. Every one of them has done it. It's highly unliklely Tyson would be any different.

You're being silly now. Moorer weighed 172 on his debut and competed at light heavy. Finally, he outgrew the light heavyweight division and moved directly up to heavy rather than fight at cruiser.

Usyk weighed just over 200 for his debut and competed at cruiserweight.

Tyson weighed 214 for his debut and that's why he competed at heavyweight. He never weighed anywhere near 200 and had no need to.

Sorry mate, not interested. "Silly"... Come on.

Same day weigh-ins.

Why would he be any different to all of the other top prospects? And even if you don't want to believe it, what is "silly" about thinking there was a chance he might do it?

If with all the "science" he couldn't do what Bivol and Bet can do then he would not fight at CW ever.

If he could, he would.

[keithmoonhangover]

Yes, he would have steamrollered bigger men. That doesn't mean he wouldn't win a CW title. Just like Oscar. Michael Moorer. Usyk. And all the other top prospects. Every one of them has done it. It's highly unliklely Tyson would be any different.

You're being silly now. Moorer weighed 172 on his debut and competed at light heavy. Finally, he outgrew the light heavyweight division and moved directly up to heavy rather than fight at cruiser.

Usyk weighed just over 200 for his debut and competed at cruiserweight.

Tyson weighed 214 for his debut and that's why he competed at heavyweight. He never weighed anywhere near 200 and had no need to.

Sorry mate, not interested. "Silly"... Come on.

Same day weigh-ins.

Why would he be any different to all of the other top prospects? And even if you don't want to believe it, what is "silly" about thinking there was a chance he might do it?

If with all the "science" he couldn't do what Bivol and Bet can do then he would not fight at CW ever.

If he could, he would.

The difference is, when you mention Bivol and Bet and Usyk and Moorer and Pac and Floyd and Loma and Usyk and Canelo and Crawford and Haney, I'll remind you that none of them weighed 14lbs over there chosen weight division on their debut.

[Ezzard]

You're being silly now. Moorer weighed 172 on his debut and competed at light heavy. Finally, he outgrew the light heavyweight division and moved directly up to heavy rather than fight at cruiser.

Usyk weighed just over 200 for his debut and competed at cruiserweight.

Tyson weighed 214 for his debut and that's why he competed at heavyweight. He never weighed anywhere near 200 and had no need to.

Sorry mate, not interested. "Silly"... Come on.

Same day weigh-ins.

Why would he be any different to all of the other top prospects? And even if you don't want to believe it, what is "silly" about thinking there was a chance he might do it?

If with all the "science" he couldn't do what Bivol and Bet can do then he would not fight at CW ever.

If he could, he would.

The difference is, when you mention Bivol and Bet and Usyk and Moorer and Pac and Floyd and Loma and Usyk and Canelo and Crawford and Haney, I'll remind you that none of them weighed 14lbs over there chosen weight division on their debut.

Maybe because they were drained by a similar percentage...

Again: If he could, he would.