Tyson

[Controversial]

Remember too Tyson was 18 and 214, still growing and filling out. He’s a tank

[keithmoonhangover]

Sorry mate, not interested. "Silly"... Come on.

Same day weigh-ins.

Why would he be any different to all of the other top prospects? And even if you don't want to believe it, what is "silly" about thinking there was a chance he might do it?

If with all the "science" he couldn't do what Bivol and Bet can do then he would not fight at CW ever.

If he could, he would.

The difference is, when you mention Bivol and Bet and Usyk and Moorer and Pac and Floyd and Loma and Usyk and Canelo and Crawford and Haney, I'll remind you that none of them weighed 14lbs over there chosen weight division on their debut.

Maybe because they were drained by a similar percentage...

Again: If he could, he would.

Percentages? Tyson would have need to shift 14lbs to get to 200, that's 7% of his body mass.

As an example, If a guy fought for a title at lightweight, 7% would be over 9lbs.

None of your examples shifted that much weight after their debut, not one.

[keithmoonhangover]

Remember too Tyson was 18 and 214, still growing and filling out. He’s a tank

Yep. Just because he was short, it didn't mean he was at a disadvantage.

[Ezzard]

How do you know they weren't drained on day one?

Nobody blinks at a LHW putting on 15 pounds.

Berlanga just put on 25 pounds and he's a Super-Middle?

[Jaywheel]

The problem with your argument Ezzard is you don't take into account that Tyson was trained by D'Amato, the same who trained Patterson. They would always go for the "Youngest HW champ ever" over the "2-division champ" label. Looking at today's HW landscape, there is no reason that it would seem harder for Tyson to climb the ranks and become HW champ than it was in 1986.

[keithmoonhangover]

How do you know they weren't drained on day one?

Nobody blinks at a LHW putting on 15 pounds.

Berlanga just put on 25 pounds and he's a Super-Middle?

How do you know they weren't drained on day one? That's very simple, because they don't need to make weight.

[Ezzard]

The problem with your argument Ezzard is you don't take into account that Tyson was trained by D'Amato, the same who trained Patterson. They would always go for the "Youngest HW champ ever" over the "2-division champ" label. Looking at today's HW landscape, there is no reason that it would seem harder for Tyson to climb the ranks and become HW champ than it was in 1986.

I'm not counting anything out. But we have no idea how Cus and the gang would think if they were around today.

And... Tyson could have won the CW title and still have been the youngest HW champ.

[Controversial]

We could go back and forth on whether Tyson would fight at CW. Could he in theory make CW if it was a 200 limit, possibly. However I don’t think he would, he’s naturally very thickset, he was boxing at HW aged 15 in the amateurs and still weighs over 200 to this day.

[Ezzard]

We could go back and forth on whether Tyson would fight at CW. Could he in theory make CW if it was a 200 limit, possibly. However I don’t think he would, he’s naturally very thickset, he was boxing at HW aged 15 in the amateurs and still weighs over 200 to this day.

[keithmoonhangover]

There is zero evidence that Tyson could make cruiser. We've looked at percentages, we've look at weights and why fighters don't need to make weight.

[Controversial]

There is zero evidence that Tyson could make cruiser. We've looked at percentages, we've look at weights and why fighters don't need to make weight.

I think it's unlikely, he wasn't flabby or carrying excess weight so to lose a stone wouldn't have been great for him although with all the weight cutting science around today it would likely be possible. I just don't see him doing it, he had the chance to do that when he turned pro and didn't and has never mentioned moving down at any point. What still amazes me is Usyk fought Shawn Porter as a 15 year old amateur just below 12 stone. Teddy Atlas is on record saying Tyson weighed 190 aged 12.

[keithmoonhangover]

There is zero evidence that Tyson could make cruiser. We've looked at percentages, we've look at weights and why fighters don't need to make weight.

I think it's unlikely, he wasn't flabby or carrying excess weight so to lose a stone wouldn't have been great for him although with all the weight cutting science around today it would likely be possible. I just don't see him doing it, he had the chance to do that when he turned pro and didn't and has never mentioned moving down at any point. What still amazes me is Usyk fought Shawn Porter as a 15 year old amateur just below 12 stone. Teddy Atlas is on record saying Tyson weighed 190 aged 12.

I wonder how tall Usyk was at 15? I was 6' 2" when I was 21 years old, but 6' 5" by the time I was 30. I had a doctor tell me it was impossible, so I pointed out it was on my medical notes.

[Controversial]

There is zero evidence that Tyson could make cruiser. We've looked at percentages, we've look at weights and why fighters don't need to make weight.

I think it's unlikely, he wasn't flabby or carrying excess weight so to lose a stone wouldn't have been great for him although with all the weight cutting science around today it would likely be possible. I just don't see him doing it, he had the chance to do that when he turned pro and didn't and has never mentioned moving down at any point. What still amazes me is Usyk fought Shawn Porter as a 15 year old amateur just below 12 stone. Teddy Atlas is on record saying Tyson weighed 190 aged 12.

I wonder how tall Usyk was at 15? I was 6' 2" when I was 21 years old, but 6' 5" by the time I was 30. I had a doctor tell me it was impossible, so I pointed out it was on my medical notes.

That’s weird, you carried on growing, that’s pretty unusual. Porter said Usyk was about the same height as he is now, Porter beat him.

[keithmoonhangover]

I think it's unlikely, he wasn't flabby or carrying excess weight so to lose a stone wouldn't have been great for him although with all the weight cutting science around today it would likely be possible. I just don't see him doing it, he had the chance to do that when he turned pro and didn't and has never mentioned moving down at any point. What still amazes me is Usyk fought Shawn Porter as a 15 year old amateur just below 12 stone. Teddy Atlas is on record saying Tyson weighed 190 aged 12.

I wonder how tall Usyk was at 15? I was 6' 2" when I was 21 years old, but 6' 5" by the time I was 30. I had a doctor tell me it was impossible, so I pointed out it was on my medical notes.

That’s weird, you carried on growing, that’s pretty unusual..

I was actually 6' 2" when I was sixteen and didn't get measured again until I was 21.

[Cojimar 1946]

I don’t think the Ngannou fight is relevant but Fury is still far closer to his best than Mike Tyson was at the end of his career, if we say Tyson was at his best in 1988 then it was 16-17 years later he was losing to Williams etc, he was shot to pieces. In terms of Klitschko losses compared to Lewis I’m off the opinion at HW anyone can been knocked out if caught. The difference for me would be Lewis avenged both by stoppage but also his overall career was far superior in who he beat compared to Klitschko. In terms of Usyk dodging 10 fight novice Itouma who has just started fighting 10 rounders, hasn’t been past 6 or been tested by anyone with a pulse or real desire is just a ridiculous argument. Itouma hasn’t done anything yet to justify a world title shot and if he did get one now Usyk would deal with him without issue.
[/quote]

That's a fair argument in regards Fury not being shot to the degree Tyson was. In regards to Lewis I think his competition is overrated. Holyfield and Tyson were the biggest names on his resume and both were past, especially in the case of Tyson. Some of his other opponents like Tucker and Mercer were also past it. People seem to be just looking at the names on his resume and ignoring the state they were in when they faced Lewis. Certainly I don't see the argument for it being far superior taking into account when the fights happened. If Lewis beat a 1998 Tyson, a 1993 Holyfield, a 1991 Mercer, a 1987 Tucker, a 1998 Tua I'd be more receptive to him having a significantly better career than Klistchko but that didn't happen.

Plenty of guys get title shots without doing anything to deserve it. Foreman was totally undeserving of a title shot vs Moorer, Ruiz was totally undeserving of a shot vs AJ, Spinks was undeserving of a fight with Ali. I don't necessarily think Itauma beats Usyk but given Usyk's age it wouldn't be a huge shock if he did. How many people picked Ruiz to beat AJ?

[Controversial]

I don’t think the Ngannou fight is relevant but Fury is still far closer to his best than Mike Tyson was at the end of his career, if we say Tyson was at his best in 1988 then it was 16-17 years later he was losing to Williams etc, he was shot to pieces. In terms of Klitschko losses compared to Lewis I’m off the opinion at HW anyone can been knocked out if caught. The difference for me would be Lewis avenged both by stoppage but also his overall career was far superior in who he beat compared to Klitschko. In terms of Usyk dodging 10 fight novice Itouma who has just started fighting 10 rounders, hasn’t been past 6 or been tested by anyone with a pulse or real desire is just a ridiculous argument. Itouma hasn’t done anything yet to justify a world title shot and if he did get one now Usyk would deal with him without issue.

That's a fair argument in regards Fury not being shot to the degree Tyson was. In regards to Lewis I think his competition is overrated. Holyfield and Tyson were the biggest names on his resume and both were past, especially in the case of Tyson. Some of his other opponents like Tucker and Mercer were also past it. People seem to be just looking at the names on his resume and ignoring the state they were in when they faced Lewis. Certainly I don't see the argument for it being far superior taking into account when the fights happened. If Lewis beat a 1998 Tyson, a 1993 Holyfield, a 1991 Mercer, a 1987 Tucker, a 1998 Tua I'd be more receptive to him having a significantly better career than Klistchko but that didn't happen.

Plenty of guys get title shots without doing anything to deserve it. Foreman was totally undeserving of a title shot vs Moorer, Ruiz was totally undeserving of a shot vs AJ, Spinks was undeserving of a fight with Ali. I don't necessarily think Itauma beats Usyk but given Usyk's age it wouldn't be a huge shock if he did. How many people picked Ruiz to beat AJ?

Lewis’ resume is better than most, anyone’s record can be made to look bad and most have their fair share of easy defences or undeserving challengers. Louis, Ali and Holmes all guilty of that too. Lewis beat everyone he fought and apart from Bowe fought everyone there was to fight so he couldn’t really do much more. Anything in theory can happen in a fight, especially at HW but using that argument we can say literally anyone can beat the best HWs and cause an upset. Itouma is still very green, not used to doing many rounds and very inexperienced, far more likely scenario is Usyk would box his head off. Usyk wants the big money and who can blame him, unless someone pulls out a fight last second due to an injury and Itouma stepping in as a late replacement, I can’t see the public getting too interested in him fighting a fairly unknown fighter so nothing to gain from it.

[Cojimar 1946]

I don’t think the Ngannou fight is relevant but Fury is still far closer to his best than Mike Tyson was at the end of his career, if we say Tyson was at his best in 1988 then it was 16-17 years later he was losing to Williams etc, he was shot to pieces. In terms of Klitschko losses compared to Lewis I’m off the opinion at HW anyone can been knocked out if caught. The difference for me would be Lewis avenged both by stoppage but also his overall career was far superior in who he beat compared to Klitschko. In terms of Usyk dodging 10 fight novice Itouma who has just started fighting 10 rounders, hasn’t been past 6 or been tested by anyone with a pulse or real desire is just a ridiculous argument. Itouma hasn’t done anything yet to justify a world title shot and if he did get one now Usyk would deal with him without issue.

That's a fair argument in regards Fury not being shot to the degree Tyson was. In regards to Lewis I think his competition is overrated. Holyfield and Tyson were the biggest names on his resume and both were past, especially in the case of Tyson. Some of his other opponents like Tucker and Mercer were also past it. People seem to be just looking at the names on his resume and ignoring the state they were in when they faced Lewis. Certainly I don't see the argument for it being far superior taking into account when the fights happened. If Lewis beat a 1998 Tyson, a 1993 Holyfield, a 1991 Mercer, a 1987 Tucker, a 1998 Tua I'd be more receptive to him having a significantly better career than Klistchko but that didn't happen.

Plenty of guys get title shots without doing anything to deserve it. Foreman was totally undeserving of a title shot vs Moorer, Ruiz was totally undeserving of a shot vs AJ, Spinks was undeserving of a fight with Ali. I don't necessarily think Itauma beats Usyk but given Usyk's age it wouldn't be a huge shock if he did. How many people picked Ruiz to beat AJ?

Lewis’ resume is better than most, anyone’s record can be made to look bad and most have their fair share of easy defences or undeserving challengers. Louis, Ali and Holmes all guilty of that too. Lewis beat everyone he fought and apart from Bowe fought everyone there was to fight so he couldn’t really do much more. Anything in theory can happen in a fight, especially at HW but using that argument we can say literally anyone can beat the best HWs and cause an upset. Itouma is still very green, not used to doing many rounds and very inexperienced, far more likely scenario is Usyk would box his head off. Usyk wants the big money and who can blame him, unless someone pulls out a fight last second due to an injury and Itouma stepping in as a late replacement, I can’t see the public getting too interested in him fighting a fairly unknown fighter so nothing to gain from it.

Sure it's a good resume I just don't see much case for Lewis's win resume being substantially better than Klitschko's given the state of his opponents. Who did Lewis beat aside from possibly Vitali who you'd rate as substantially better than Klitschko's best wins?

[keithmoonhangover]

That's a fair argument in regards Fury not being shot to the degree Tyson was. In regards to Lewis I think his competition is overrated. Holyfield and Tyson were the biggest names on his resume and both were past, especially in the case of Tyson. Some of his other opponents like Tucker and Mercer were also past it. People seem to be just looking at the names on his resume and ignoring the state they were in when they faced Lewis. Certainly I don't see the argument for it being far superior taking into account when the fights happened. If Lewis beat a 1998 Tyson, a 1993 Holyfield, a 1991 Mercer, a 1987 Tucker, a 1998 Tua I'd be more receptive to him having a significantly better career than Klistchko but that didn't happen.

Plenty of guys get title shots without doing anything to deserve it. Foreman was totally undeserving of a title shot vs Moorer, Ruiz was totally undeserving of a shot vs AJ, Spinks was undeserving of a fight with Ali. I don't necessarily think Itauma beats Usyk but given Usyk's age it wouldn't be a huge shock if he did. How many people picked Ruiz to beat AJ?

Lewis’ resume is better than most, anyone’s record can be made to look bad and most have their fair share of easy defences or undeserving challengers. Louis, Ali and Holmes all guilty of that too. Lewis beat everyone he fought and apart from Bowe fought everyone there was to fight so he couldn’t really do much more. Anything in theory can happen in a fight, especially at HW but using that argument we can say literally anyone can beat the best HWs and cause an upset. Itouma is still very green, not used to doing many rounds and very inexperienced, far more likely scenario is Usyk would box his head off. Usyk wants the big money and who can blame him, unless someone pulls out a fight last second due to an injury and Itouma stepping in as a late replacement, I can’t see the public getting too interested in him fighting a fairly unknown fighter so nothing to gain from it.

Sure it's a good resume I just don't see much case for Lewis's win resume being substantially better than Klitschko's given the state of his opponents. Who did Lewis beat aside from possibly Vitali who you'd rate as substantially better than Klitschko's best wins?

I'm going to feed the troll. David Tua.

[Cojimar 1946]

Lewis’ resume is better than most, anyone’s record can be made to look bad and most have their fair share of easy defences or undeserving challengers. Louis, Ali and Holmes all guilty of that too. Lewis beat everyone he fought and apart from Bowe fought everyone there was to fight so he couldn’t really do much more. Anything in theory can happen in a fight, especially at HW but using that argument we can say literally anyone can beat the best HWs and cause an upset. Itouma is still very green, not used to doing many rounds and very inexperienced, far more likely scenario is Usyk would box his head off. Usyk wants the big money and who can blame him, unless someone pulls out a fight last second due to an injury and Itouma stepping in as a late replacement, I can’t see the public getting too interested in him fighting a fairly unknown fighter so nothing to gain from it.

Sure it's a good resume I just don't see much case for Lewis's win resume being substantially better than Klitschko's given the state of his opponents. Who did Lewis beat aside from possibly Vitali who you'd rate as substantially better than Klitschko's best wins?

I'm going to feed the troll. David Tua.

Wlad beat a guy called Chris Byrd who beat Tua, a Tua in much better shape than the flabby version who faced Lewis.
Tua can't be better than anyone Wad beat when Wad has a win over a Tua-conqueror.

To make things worse Tua was horribly out of shape vs Lewis so not even a good version of Tua like say the Tua of the Ruiz and Ike fights.

[keithmoonhangover]

Sure it's a good resume I just don't see much case for Lewis's win resume being substantially better than Klitschko's given the state of his opponents. Who did Lewis beat aside from possibly Vitali who you'd rate as substantially better than Klitschko's best wins?

I'm going to feed the troll. David Tua.

Wlad beat a guy called Chris Byrd who beat Tua, a Tua in much better shape than the flabby version who faced Lewis.
Tua can't be better than anyone Wad beat when Wad has a win over a Tua-conqueror.

To make things worse Tua was horribly out of shape vs Lewis so not even a good version of Tua like say the Tua of the Ruiz and Ike fights.

Flabby or not, he was still a fvckton better than Ross Purrity.

[Cojimar 1946]

I'm going to feed the troll. David Tua.

Wlad beat a guy called Chris Byrd who beat Tua, a Tua in much better shape than the flabby version who faced Lewis.
Tua can't be better than anyone Wad beat when Wad has a win over a Tua-conqueror.

To make things worse Tua was horribly out of shape vs Lewis so not even a good version of Tua like say the Tua of the Ruiz and Ike fights.

Flabby or not, he was still a fvckton better than Ross Purrity.

Which has nothing to do with win resume.
Wlads losses didn't prevent him from beating guys better than the guys who beat him.

If losses are such a big deal though I don't see how you can rate Tyson or Lewis above Usyk.

How can a guy who lost to McCall and Rahman be ahead of Usyk? Or someone who lost to Buster Douglas?

[Ambling Alp II]

Wins and losses both count. Quite a concept, isn't it?
the better the fighter that you beat, the more impressive it is. The worse the fighter that you lose to is, the more it counts against you. Obviously, the stage of everyone's career at the times of the fights have to be factored it.
Tyson's wins are much, much more impressive than Klitschko or Usyk.

Even though Tyson was before your time, he was better than your heroes. That is the way that it goes sometimes.

[Cojimar 1946]

Wins and losses both count. Quite a concept, isn't it?
the better the fighter that you beat, the more impressive it is. The worse the fighter that you lose to is, the more it counts against you. Obviously, the stage of everyone's career at the times of the fights have to be factored it.
Tyson's wins are much, much more impressive than Klitschko or Usyk.

Even though Tyson was before your time, he was better than your heroes. That is the way that it goes sometimes.

Usyk can only fight and beat the guys from his own era. If he wins the Fury rematch he will have proven himself the best of his era.

What more can he do? If beating the top guys of his era doesn't count for anything what exactly do you expect him to do? It's not Usyks fault if you don't rate his opponents

[Ambling Alp II]

i expect him to fight more than once a year. 6 fights in 6 years is a joke. To this day, he still only has 22 fights in his entire career.
Secondly, he would win a lot more convincingly if he was really was anywhere near say a Mike Tyson.

[Controversial]

That's a fair argument in regards Fury not being shot to the degree Tyson was. In regards to Lewis I think his competition is overrated. Holyfield and Tyson were the biggest names on his resume and both were past, especially in the case of Tyson. Some of his other opponents like Tucker and Mercer were also past it. People seem to be just looking at the names on his resume and ignoring the state they were in when they faced Lewis. Certainly I don't see the argument for it being far superior taking into account when the fights happened. If Lewis beat a 1998 Tyson, a 1993 Holyfield, a 1991 Mercer, a 1987 Tucker, a 1998 Tua I'd be more receptive to him having a significantly better career than Klistchko but that didn't happen.

Plenty of guys get title shots without doing anything to deserve it. Foreman was totally undeserving of a title shot vs Moorer, Ruiz was totally undeserving of a shot vs AJ, Spinks was undeserving of a fight with Ali. I don't necessarily think Itauma beats Usyk but given Usyk's age it wouldn't be a huge shock if he did. How many people picked Ruiz to beat AJ?

Lewis’ resume is better than most, anyone’s record can be made to look bad and most have their fair share of easy defences or undeserving challengers. Louis, Ali and Holmes all guilty of that too. Lewis beat everyone he fought and apart from Bowe fought everyone there was to fight so he couldn’t really do much more. Anything in theory can happen in a fight, especially at HW but using that argument we can say literally anyone can beat the best HWs and cause an upset. Itouma is still very green, not used to doing many rounds and very inexperienced, far more likely scenario is Usyk would box his head off. Usyk wants the big money and who can blame him, unless someone pulls out a fight last second due to an injury and Itouma stepping in as a late replacement, I can’t see the public getting too interested in him fighting a fairly unknown fighter so nothing to gain from it.

Sure it's a good resume I just don't see much case for Lewis's win resume being substantially better than Klitschko's given the state of his opponents. Who did Lewis beat aside from possibly Vitali who you'd rate as substantially better than Klitschko's best wins?

Usyk can only fight and beat the guys from his own era.

What more can he do? If beating the top guys of his era doesn't count for anything what exactly do you expect him to do?

As we both said, fighters can only beat who there is to beat. Overall Lewis' resume is better than Klitschko and his losses were both avenged and they were not to journeymen. You can argue all day about this opponent is better than that opponent but Holyfield alone is better than pretty much everyone Klitschko beat. If Lewis and Wlad fought Lewis would've beaten him as well. I don't hate on Klitschko like some, I'm not a massive fan but he was successful and you don't stay world champ and defend as many times as he did if he wasn't doing something right.