heavyweight champs - the missed or avoided challengers?

[funso banjo baby]

Having read the interesting all time lists of heavyweight champions by boxing historians it got me thinking about other criteria.

Let me start off by stating with complete confidence that Muhammed Ali fought the world's best in his time. I cannot think of an example of a single missed or avoided potentially significant fight. The same goes for Hagler at Middleweight.

Many of the longest hw champs had their fare share of bum of the month fights, not just Louis, everyone from Burns to Klitschko, arguably.

But I'd be interested in hearing from the most knowledgeable of boxrec historians which champions maybe could or should have fought other significant challengers in their time.

I can kick off with Holmes who is in my all time top 5. But the only names i can think of had very small windows of opportunity....namely a fit and focused Greg Page and Gerrie Coetzee. Both impressive in picking up the WBA baubles but quickly threw them away. Apart from that Holmes maybe could have rematched a few challengers some where down the line but again, like Ali, I really don't see any significant challengers\disrupters out there. That is why he joins the ranks of the greatest.

Other champions pose a greater dilemma, top of my head is Rocky Marciano....?

Also imagine the potential change to history if, for example, Floyd Patterson had defended his title against a younger Liston around the time that Liston had beaten Bethea?

The biggest minefield will of course by Jack Johnson and that roughest of all eras.

[Ezzard]

Add Pinklon Thomas to Holmes's list. And there should have been a rematch with Witherspoon. If Spoon had got the nod there would defintiely have been a rematch.

I think Marciano fought/beat everyone. As did Louis and Wlad.

Dempsey has Wills.
Johnson has Langford and Jeanette.
Peter Jackson hung over the chapionship way back when.
Lewis has Bowe.

[Flump]

Add Pinklon Thomas to Holmes's list. And there should have been a rematch with Witherspoon. If Spoon had got the nod there would defintiely have been a rematch.

I think Marciano fought/beat everyone. As did Louis and Wlad.

Dempsey has Wills.
Johnson has Langford and Jeanette.
Peter Jackson hung over the chapionship way back when.
Lewis has Bowe.

You could add Dokes to the list too, but these guys didn't stay long enough as champions to build sufficient interest for Don King to unify the belts.

[bennie]

Add Pinklon Thomas to Holmes's list. And there should have been a rematch with Witherspoon. If Spoon had got the nod there would defintiely have been a rematch.

I think Marciano fought/beat everyone. As did Louis and Wlad.

Dempsey has Wills.
Johnson has Langford and Jeanette.
Peter Jackson hung over the chapionship way back when.
Lewis has Bowe.

They say that Marciano avoided the giant Cuban Nino Valdes, although Valdes lost to Archie Moore and Moore then lost in a crack at Marciano. Valdes proved a monster over here.

[Ezzard]

Yes, that's the only name. A giant clipping Marciano on the way in could be a huge danger. But, as you day, the defeat to Moore took him out of the picture.

[Ezzard]

Add Pinklon Thomas to Holmes's list. And there should have been a rematch with Witherspoon. If Spoon had got the nod there would defintiely have been a rematch.

I think Marciano fought/beat everyone. As did Louis and Wlad.

Dempsey has Wills.
Johnson has Langford and Jeanette.
Peter Jackson hung over the chapionship way back when.
Lewis has Bowe.

You could add Dokes to the list too, but these guys didn't stay long enough as champions to build sufficient interest for Don King to unify the belts.

Let's not forget that Larry dumped the WBC belt to avoid challengers too.

[Ezzard]

I guess too that Holmes was on the right side of decisions that might have gone against him. Norton, Witherspoon and Williams were all fights he won that could have gone the other way. Spinks II was close but did go against him.

Louis had the Walcott fight. That wasn't so close.

Walcott got the Charles decision in their 4th fight. Again unlike the Holmes examples it wasn't close.

Ali got the nod against Norton and Young. Maybe Shavers too. These were all close though.

[Seamus]

Jack Johnson avoided the top 5 contenders during his title reign.

[Riddick Bowie]

Holmes and Coetzee signed to fight but it fell through, no man was at fault. Does, Page, Tubbs, and Pinklon Thomas all seemed like men Holmes was keen to avoid. While he racked up defences against weaker challengers. When you consider how tough Norton, Weaver and Witherspoon proved, you have to question whether one of those guys would've interrupted Holmes famous 7 year run.

Marciano never ducked Valdez, nonsense.

Johnson fans could argue he beat his top contenders innumerable times before he was champ. Did he really need to beat Joe Jeanette a 12th time?

[Ezzard]

Good post on Tubbs. His movement would have been a headache for Larry towards the end of his reign.

[margaret thatcher]

lol ya, jack johnson beating a barely 20 year old, 156 pound sam langford is a great heavyweight win, surely excuses him from ever fighting him again. sam had even fought at 141 pounds just a year before

jack went even younger with sam mcvea though, fighting him when sam was still a teenager. of coursee ,like vs langford, jack was already a fully grown man at prime hw age.

jee, i wonder if inexperienced, undersized teeny boppers who arent even done growing could become much more formidable hw challengers as they got older and more experienced? jack himself was kod multiple times early in his career.

by the way, junior welterweights dev haney and regis prograis both weighed more than 156 on fight night when they fought last year, haney was even up to 165. at that stage of sam's career he was the size of just a light welter today, far from a genuine hw. wee little guy. imagine a hw beating a light welter and people trying to act like it's a big deal.

[Ambling Alp II]

To be fair to Holmes, he did defend the title against Weaver, Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Williams, Snipes, etc.
i.e. guys that were about even with Tubbs Page, Thomas etc. He was defending his title several times a year. He couldn't fight everyone. Those that he didn't fight seemed content to go for the WBA title. People were not screaming for him to fight these guys.

There is always going to be someone. Even if you beat the very best fighters over a few years, there is still going to be someone out there.
Marciano could have defended it against Bob Baker as well.
Louis didn't defend it against Bivins, Turkey Thompson, or Elmer Ray.

[Riddick Bowie]

Holmes vacated the WBC belt rather than fight Page or rematch Spoon, and there was certainly clamour for Pinky, at that time a serious handful who beat Spoon easily. He was more interesting than Bey or Williams.

[Expug]

To be fair to Holmes, he did defend the title against Weaver, Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Williams, Snipes, etc.
i.e. guys that were about even with Tubbs Page, Thomas etc. He was defending his title several times a year. He couldn't fight everyone. Those that he didn't fight seemed content to go for the WBA title. People were not screaming for him to fight these guys.

There is always going to be someone. Even if you beat the very best fighters over a few years, there is still going to be someone out there.
Marciano could have defended it against Bob Baker as well.
Louis didn't defend it against Bivins, Turkey Thompson, or Elmer Ray.

I believe Louis couldn’t stand Ray. Swore off fighting him because he didn’t want to give him a payday. It was a case of Ray talking so much shit at Joe that Louis wouldn’t fight him.

[Nile4000]

To be fair to Holmes, he did defend the title against Weaver, Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Williams, Snipes, etc.
i.e. guys that were about even with Tubbs Page, Thomas etc. He was defending his title several times a year. He couldn't fight everyone. Those that he didn't fight seemed content to go for the WBA title. People were not screaming for him to fight these guys.

There is always going to be someone. Even if you beat the very best fighters over a few years, there is still going to be someone out there.
Marciano could have defended it against Bob Baker as well.
Louis didn't defend it against Bivins, Turkey Thompson, or Elmer Ray.

I believe Louis couldn’t stand Ray. Swore off fighting him because he didn’t want to give him a payday. It was a case of Ray talking so much shit at Joe that Louis wouldn’t fight him.

Shame Lem Franklin never got to fight Joe.

[Ezzard]

Holmes vacated the WBC belt rather than fight Page or rematch Spoon, and there was certainly clamour for Pinky, at that time a serious handful who beat Spoon easily. He was more interesting than Bey or Williams.

Holmes' reluctance cost him KO magazine's number 1 spot.

[pound per pound]

Having read the interesting all time lists of heavyweight champions by boxing historians it got me thinking about other criteria.

Let me start off by stating with complete confidence that Muhammed Ali fought the world's best in his time. I cannot think of an example of a single missed or avoided potentially significant fight. The same goes for Hagler at Middleweight.

Many of the longest hw champs had their fare share of bum of the month fights, not just Louis, everyone from Burns to Klitschko, arguably.

But I'd be interested in hearing from the most knowledgeable of boxrec historians which champions maybe could or should have fought other significant challengers in their time.

I can kick off with Holmes who is in my all time top 5. But the only names i can think of had very small windows of opportunity....namely a fit and focused Greg Page and Gerrie Coetzee. Both impressive in picking up the WBA baubles but quickly threw them away. Apart from that Holmes maybe could have rematched a few challengers some where down the line but again, like Ali, I really don't see any significant challengers\disrupters out there. That is why he joins the ranks of the greatest.

Other champions pose a greater dilemma, top of my head is Rocky Marciano....?

Also imagine the potential change to history if, for example, Floyd Patterson had defended his title against a younger Liston around the time that Liston had beaten Bethea?

The biggest minefield will of course by Jack Johnson and that roughest of all eras.

Johnson did not give title shots to: Langford, Jeannete, McVey, or McCarty. That is four men. These fights could have been made. As heavyweight champion he could fight in any USA state, the UK, France or Australia.

He could have fought Gunboat Smith who floored him in an exhibition match.

He also did not give re-match to dubious draws to O'brien or Jim Johnson.

[Bodyshot3]

Bowe had the belt and the linear kudos.....and I still believe he ducked Lewis, possibly because Rock Newman felt more money could be made down the line. Or maybe it was because Newman was a massive A-hole

That still feels like the best HW title fight that got away that I can recall.

[DrDuke]

Bowe had the belt and the linear kudos.....and I still believe he ducked Lewis, possibly because Rock Newman felt more money could be made down the line. Or maybe it was because Newman was a massive A-hole

That still feels like the best HW title fight that got away that I can recall.

Newman planned to marinate the fight, while there were no significantly better options. It's fair to say, that he made a stupid move.

[pound per pound]

To be fair to Holmes, he did defend the title against Weaver, Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Williams, Snipes, etc.
i.e. guys that were about even with Tubbs Page, Thomas etc. He was defending his title several times a year. He couldn't fight everyone. Those that he didn't fight seemed content to go for the WBA title. People were not screaming for him to fight these guys.

There is always going to be someone. Even if you beat the very best fighters over a few years, there is still going to be someone out there.
Marciano could have defended it against Bob Baker as well.
Louis didn't defend it against Bivins, Turkey Thompson, or Elmer Ray.

I believe Louis couldn’t stand Ray. Swore off fighting him because he didn’t want to give him a payday. It was a case of Ray talking so much shit at Joe that Louis wouldn’t fight him.

Shame Lem Franklin never got to fight Joe.

And a shame Elmer Ray didn't fight him either. In fact just two of Joe Louis 26+ title defenses were vs. African American men. This is shocking but true. One had a bad vision problem and it was his last fight. Joe gave him a gift for a retirement . The other follored him twice only to be " robbed " on the score cards. Based on what I have seen, it was a bad decsion.

As the heavyweight champion he could have give more dark skinned conterders chace for civil rights, but hisory shows he only gave two.

[Nile4000]

I believe Louis couldn’t stand Ray. Swore off fighting him because he didn’t want to give him a payday. It was a case of Ray talking so much shit at Joe that Louis wouldn’t fight him.

Shame Lem Franklin never got to fight Joe.

And a shame Elmer Ray didn't fight him either. In fact just two of Joe Louis 26+ title defenses were vs. African American men. This is shocking but true. One had a bad vision problem and it was his last fight. Joe gave him a gift for a retirement . The other follored him twice only to be " robbed " on the score cards. Based on what I have seen, it was a bad decsion.

As the heavyweight champion he could have give more dark skinned conterders chace for civil rights, but hisory shows he only gave two.

Indeed, I have a feeling in part, it was out of his control.

[Ambling Alp II]

There had always been a theory that two black fighters in a fight would not draw as well.

[Nile4000]

There had always been a theory that two black fighters in a fight would not draw as well.

Back then, in some cases, I could see it.

[keithmoonhangover]

As heavyweight champion he could fight in any USA state,

I'm pretty sure he couldn't.

[pound per pound]

lol ya, jack johnson beating a barely 20 year old, 156 pound sam langford is a great heavyweight win, surely excuses him from ever fighting him again. sam had even fought at 141 pounds just a year before

jack went even younger with sam mcvea though, fighting him when sam was still a teenager. of coursee ,like vs langford, jack was already a fully grown man at prime hw age.

jee, i wonder if inexperienced, undersized teeny boppers who arent even done growing could become much more formidable hw challengers as they got older and more experienced? jack himself was kod multiple times early in his career.

by the way, junior welterweights dev haney and regis prograis both weighed more than 156 on fight night when they fought last year, haney was even up to 165. at that stage of sam's career he was the size of just a light welter today, far from a genuine hw. wee little guy. imagine a hw beating a light welter and people trying to act like it's a big deal.

I raise you one Robert Thomspon. Who is he? He was a 130 something pound man who beat one John Arthur Johnson. They say the date was 1899 or 1895.

Imagine that? A heavyweight champion losing to a lightweight?