Why do People on forums/comments constantly claim the Heavyweight division is weak?

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

There's plenty of contenders for Usyk to fight, but I'll grant you he's already faced the biggest name ones. Whether or not his body will hold up to face any of the others is another story. He rocketed straight up to the top of the Heavyweight ranks because of his P4P and Undisputed status at the previous weight class. That's how Boxing works these days.

For the record: If you put Max Baer vs Andy Ruiz in a head to head matchup. My money would be on Ruiz. Baer is more historically significant though.

You're free to disagree, but if you think this era is one of the weakest, and is weaker than every single one of those eras. You're too wrapped up in nostalgia, and need to take a better look at what's in front of you.

Agreed if you actually watch baer he has zero defense and is wide open. Ruiz is much quicker with his fist, they are the same height, and ruiz boxing skill is far superior

E

[zorndeslammes]

There's plenty of contenders for Usyk to fight, but I'll grant you he's already faced the biggest name ones. Whether or not his body will hold up to face any of the others is another story. He rocketed straight up to the top of the Heavyweight ranks because of his P4P and Undisputed status at the previous weight class. That's how Boxing works these days.

I'm not about to argue that, but at the same time, I can't acquiesce and state that because it is the way boxing works today, boxing of today is qualitatively as good as it has been throughout history. You and I would likely agree about a great many things in relation to eras of the past and their relative goodness (late 19th century: they stink! Jack Dempsey: most overrated professional athlete in human history!). But boxing being what it is now is just...not as good. Nothing the boxers specifically are at fault for. Promoters? Sure. Networks? Some. Fighters? Less so. We could go through the laundry list but at the end of the day...

For the record: If you put Max Baer vs Andy Ruiz in a head to head matchup. My money would be on Ruiz. Baer is more historically significant though.

We can all pick and choose guys who we think might have had more or less success in this era at will if you know enough. Can Max Baer lose to Andy Ruiz? He lost to Braddock, so I suppose it is possible. On the flipside, I'd say that there were versions of Tim Witherspoon, Doug Jones, Abe Simon, among others who likely would have had quite a bit of success in an era where Dereck Chisora is still around and Ruiz himself can't decisively beat whatever's left of Big Baby. It's certainly a more competitive era now, but is that because the fighters are good, or because at the top of the charts the guys we have today are really just Frank Bruno(AJ), a more athletic Jameel McCline (Tyson Fury), et al? A lot of the division is advanced enough where we know what the end outcome for them historically is going to be. I think you and I both recognize that the potential of a career renaissance for Wilder, Zhang, Whyte, Joyce, Hrgovic, Hunter Jr. isn't there. That also makes it very unlike describing the heavyweight class 25 years ago where most of them were either entering their primes or squarely in it. I know with a fair degree of certainty I've seen the best of 90% of the top 50 and their best is often not that great or took place against garbage opposition.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Mike Tysons era in the late 80''s early 90's was before my time, But I've gone back and watched plenty of the fights, and it seems a very, very weak era , full of pass the parcel weak champs. the likes of Tony Tucker, Trevor Berbick, Buster Douglas, James Smith, Greg Page, Tony Tubbs, Bruce Seldon, Frank Bruno. And some of the contenders Tyson faced were like they'd got random men out from the crowd they were that awful.

Plus the fact he was knocked out by Buster Douglas (who Holyfield destroyed in 3 rounds) is just super embarrassing.

Question for those old enough >>>When Tyson was facing bums in the late 80's early 90's were people claiming the heavyweight division was weak then at the time??? (or is that just saved for when non-americans are on top )

- Mike Tyson eliminated that GIANT SUCKING SOUND of the Tubby Larry Holmes era who used to be skinny by blasting to smithereens all the WBA Champs Lar ducked along with the IBF and WBC that Lar dropped so he wouldn't have to face his mandatories.

Not to mention Mike literally crucifying tubby Lar in the ring after Lar had spent a year training for Tyson while defiling his name in Ringside interviews of Tyson's title fights. Mike was Ring's first ever P4P #1 because thanks to his all time best HOF team, he had completely obliterated everyone in sight inside 2 years, Ring, Lineal, WBC/WBA/IBF titles and had already made more $$$ than any fighter in history by a longshot.

He was lined up to face Big George in Peking with the Chinese fronting $20Mil+ Purse with the split being Foreman $10 mil and Tyson $10+, but alas, a silly little kiddy wouldn't understand the Tiananmen Square Massacre that made China a no fly/no visit zone for a number of years.

Yeah, a PsychSedative drugged up Tyson looking like a zombie got beat by Buster, but not before he knocked out Buster for a 14 count that the illicit Mex of no repute ref gave Buster to recover, a fixed fight authored by boxing's most corrupt promoter ever, but of course what would a soft silly lad like You know about then or even now?

Funny thing is poor Field wasn't eligible to fight Mike then, so when he turned to the Heavy division he compiled a less than glorious 26-10-2 Hvy record with about a 30% KO ratio with the most title losses of any Hvy champ in history, so check out poor Mr. Field's comic return to the ring for peanut$ not so long ago compared the #20 or so Mil Tyson has cleared...

[gilgamesh]

There's plenty of contenders for Usyk to fight, but I'll grant you he's already faced the biggest name ones. Whether or not his body will hold up to face any of the others is another story. He rocketed straight up to the top of the Heavyweight ranks because of his P4P and Undisputed status at the previous weight class. That's how Boxing works these days.

I'm not about to argue that, but at the same time, I can't acquiesce and state that because it is the way boxing works today, boxing of today is qualitatively as good as it has been throughout history. You and I would likely agree about a great many things in relation to eras of the past and their relative goodness (late 19th century: they stink! Jack Dempsey: most overrated professional athlete in human history!). But boxing being what it is now is just...not as good. Nothing the boxers specifically are at fault for. Promoters? Sure. Networks? Some. Fighters? Less so. We could go through the laundry list but at the end of the day...

For the record I definitely don't disagree that the sport itself was more fun to watch in previous eras, simply because there was more of it to watch, and more activity from the big names in the sport.

[zorndeslammes]

For the record I definitely don't disagree that the sport itself was more fun to watch in previous eras, simply because there was more of it to watch, and more activity from the big names in the sport.

I don't try to look at it with rose colored glasses either because I think nostalgia is for wimps and lames, but it was definitely more fun when you had more competitions and competitors and I don't know of any sports where the talent level increased while there was a commensurate large decrease in the number of competitions/competitors. Wilder and Louis both have fairly short stints in the amateurs before turning pro, but compare how each man adapted to the sport and the trajectory both ultimately went on, and there's a huge gap there. How much of that is the evolution of the sport, and how much of that is "There's countless washouts we'll never know from the 40s/50s/etc and Wilder likely would have been one"? All guess work.

(for the record, I think Wilder would have done fine in the olden days if not better. hed have gotten a lot more work in and hitting people with those big right hands in old gloves might send a poor soul or two to see god prematurely)

[IKSRTFO]

It's probably mostly trolls or/and USA nostalgia bias? but I've watched boxing nearly 20 years and I swear I've heard it every year

Or are people just overly harsh with the glamour division?

Have anyone ever in their lifetime ever heard people just say positive things about a current heavyweight era?

For example the top 9 at heavyweight right now is Usyk, Fury, Dubois, Joshua, Parker, Zhang, Kabayel, Bakole, Hrgovic
So it's definitely not weak! clearly! It's a good division right now.

Because the Heavyweight division is weak. Simple as that.

[ordsalloriginator]

Yeah, a PsychSedative drugged up Tyson looking like a zombie got beat by Buster, but not before he knocked out Buster for a 14 count that the illicit Mex of no repute ref gave Buster to recover, a fixed fight authored by boxing's most corrupt promoter ever, but of course what would a soft silly lad like You know about then or even now?

I always find it hilarious how you cringe Tyson super fanboys make pathetic excuses for ALL of his failures. Without ever admitting the truth, that you know.. he just wasn't good enough, he wasn't the full package. He couldn't beat Evander and Lewis, he wouldn't have ever have been number 1 in a strong era.

[ordsalloriginator]

Clear racist double standards when you look into who is posting these comments...

White fighter dominates a division: The division is weak

Black boxer dominates a division: The division is loaded with talent

[ordsalloriginator]

Heavyweight boxing is never ever going to go back to how it was in the 80s/90s where the vast majority of the champs and top ten were black and American

So these people will forever be calling the Heavyweight division weak

[KiwiRider]

remember when david haye was the saviour

Toetally!

[Fray Bentos]

Heavyweight boxing is never ever going to go back to how it was in the 80s/90s where the vast majority of the champs and top ten were black and American

So these people will forever be calling the Heavyweight division weak

People said that the heavyweight division was weak in the eighties. What we did have was a unified champion and an exciting fighter in one.

[Fray Bentos]

Clear racist double standards when you look into who is posting these comments...

White fighter dominates a division: The division is weak

Black boxer dominates a division: The division is loaded with talent

Nobody ever said the 'division was loaded with talent' when the heavyweight top ten in the eighties was American and black (for the most part)who said that - like ever?

[klitoris]

People who honestly think this era is weak are being ridiculous.
- Fury beat a prime Wlad, beat Wilder (who had more title defences that Vitaliy). Yeah, he doesn't really have anything that impressive on his record after that (apart from maybe the first Chisora fight when they were both undefeated), but he's a lock HOFamer and could have beaten any ATG with that skillset at his size.
-Joshua had one of the best HW fights of all time with Wlad, demolished Martin, unified the division (3 belt holder) against really good HWs like Parker, and had that impressive win against Povetkin. And he's a fringe HOFamer IMO and an Olympic gold medalist.
- Usyk is arguably a top 5-10 HW of all time after moving to the division from Cruiserweight (and he's basically the best Cruiserweight of all time) and an ATG, not to mention all the incredible amateur boxing accomplishments.
- Then you add guys like Wilder (obviously washed now but in the recent past he was good), Parker, Ruiz, Dubois as well as the young guys coming up right now...

There's never really such a thing as an era, strictly speaking, because every era intersects with the previous era and the next era. But if we look at the guys at the top in the last 6-8 years who inherited the HW crown from the Wlad era, then it's clear this era is definitely stronger than the previous one and definitely very respectable in HW history.

[zorndeslammes]

People who honestly think this era is weak are being ridiculous.
- Fury beat a prime Wlad,

I appreciate you started with this to let me know you were doing a bit. This is a good bit.

[Perkin Warbeck]

Although the heavyweight division wasn't very interesting 10 years ago, it's actually doing very well now.

We have Fury, Usyk, Dubois, Parker, Zhang, Kabayel, and Bakole - for me, that's not a bad group of contenders.

We also have some fine young up-and-comers like Itauma, Huni, Torrez Jr., and Pero.

And despite losses in 2024, I think Anderson, Joshua, and Hrgovic may do better in the coming year.

Some people will always complain about the heavyweight division. I remember back in the late 1980s when Mike Tyson was tearing through the division, the old timers were saying the division was weak.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

People who honestly think this era is weak are being ridiculous.
- Fury beat a prime Wlad, beat Wilder (who had more title defences that Vitaliy). Yeah, he doesn't really have anything that impressive on his record after that (apart from maybe the first Chisora fight when they were both undefeated), but he's a lock HOFamer and could have beaten any ATG with that skillset at his size.
-Joshua had one of the best HW fights of all time with Wlad, demolished Martin, unified the division (3 belt holder) against really good HWs like Parker, and had that impressive win against Povetkin. And he's a fringe HOFamer IMO and an Olympic gold medalist.
- Usyk is arguably a top 5-10 HW of all time after moving to the division from Cruiserweight (and he's basically the best Cruiserweight of all time) and an ATG, not to mention all the incredible amateur boxing accomplishments.
- Then you add guys like Wilder (obviously washed now but in the recent past he was good), Parker, Ruiz, Dubois as well as the young guys coming up right now...

There's never really such a thing as an era, strictly speaking, because every era intersects with the previous era and the next era. But if we look at the guys at the top in the last 6-8 years who inherited the HW crown from the Wlad era, then it's clear this era is definitely stronger than the previous one and definitely very respectable in HW history.

- Most in boxing forums are either terribly biased and/or miserably misinformed, hence adding to the already low brow reputation of Boxing.

Wlad was not only far from prime for Flubber, but was in a terrible newly wed marriage funk when his new wife who was something of a movie star prima donna went straight into postpartum depression just before that fight that any family man suddenly left in charge of a newborn would understand as horrific moment in time. He fought like he was underwater in spite of Flubber not having much of an offense.

Per boxrec: Wlad unified champ was age 39 and 64-3 on a long winning Joe Louis streak with his last bout looking slow and lethargic much like Joe Louis' first bout vs Jersey Joe Walcott. We know what happened in that rematch that allowed Louis to retire in good graces with the public when he KOed Joe.

Flubber the challenger was age 27 and 24-0 was rated #3, problem being he had previously been busted for steroids in his last fight against fringe contender Christian Hammer that the crooked BBBc withheld from the public until after the Wlad fight. They then put Flubber on suspension after the mandatory Wlad rematch was announced. Flubber, almost in concert with the BBBc then retired in disgrace to go on a Mike Tyson type of public self immolation of booze/pie/cocaine fueled binges for 3 years before playing his mental health card to start his comeback with a comedy of heavies so he could fight Deyonce's disgraced WBC title.

You are correct in knowing that the Kbros and Usyk have dominated their time in boxing as few others have, effectively moving the center of Heavyweight boxing from the US to Ukraine, currently under a horrific siege with Russia where they served significant to the defense of Ukraine. They are also active in many nonprofit World Aid programs as well as run their Boxing Promotions thru K2...

[klitoris]

People who honestly think this era is weak are being ridiculous.
- Fury beat a prime Wlad, beat Wilder (who had more title defences that Vitaliy). Yeah, he doesn't really have anything that impressive on his record after that (apart from maybe the first Chisora fight when they were both undefeated), but he's a lock HOFamer and could have beaten any ATG with that skillset at his size.
-Joshua had one of the best HW fights of all time with Wlad, demolished Martin, unified the division (3 belt holder) against really good HWs like Parker, and had that impressive win against Povetkin. And he's a fringe HOFamer IMO and an Olympic gold medalist.
- Usyk is arguably a top 5-10 HW of all time after moving to the division from Cruiserweight (and he's basically the best Cruiserweight of all time) and an ATG, not to mention all the incredible amateur boxing accomplishments.
- Then you add guys like Wilder (obviously washed now but in the recent past he was good), Parker, Ruiz, Dubois as well as the young guys coming up right now...

There's never really such a thing as an era, strictly speaking, because every era intersects with the previous era and the next era. But if we look at the guys at the top in the last 6-8 years who inherited the HW crown from the Wlad era, then it's clear this era is definitely stronger than the previous one and definitely very respectable in HW history.

- Most in boxing forums are either terribly biased and/or miserably misinformed, hence adding to the already low brow reputation of Boxing.

Wlad was not only far from prime for Flubber, but was in a terrible newly wed marriage funk when his new wife who was something of a movie star prima donna went straight into postpartum depression just before that fight that any family man suddenly left in charge of a newborn would understand as horrific moment in time. He fought like he was underwater in spite of Flubber not having much of an offense.

Per boxrec: Wlad unified champ was age 39 and 64-3 on a long winning Joe Louis streak with his last bout looking slow and lethargic much like Joe Louis' first bout vs Jersey Joe Walcott. We know what happened in that rematch that allowed Louis to retire in good graces with the public when he KOed Joe.

Flubber the challenger was age 27 and 24-0 was rated #3, problem being he had previously been busted for steroids in his last fight against fringe contender Christian Hammer that the crooked BBBc withheld from the public until after the Wlad fight. They then put Flubber on suspension after the mandatory Wlad rematch was announced. Flubber, almost in concert with the BBBc then retired in disgrace to go on a Mike Tyson type of public self immolation of booze/pie/cocaine fueled binges for 3 years before playing his mental health card to start his comeback with a comedy of heavies so he could fight Deyonce's disgraced WBC title.

You are correct in knowing that the Kbros and Usyk have dominated their time in boxing as few others have, effectively moving the center of Heavyweight boxing from the US to Ukraine, currently under a horrific siege with Russia where they served significant to the defense of Ukraine. They are also active in many nonprofit World Aid programs as well as run their Boxing Promotions thru K2...

The points about Wlad being on the decline before the Fury fight are true. He showed signs of decline against Jennings, which no doubt put doubt in his head before the Fury fight. The family stuff isn't really that much of an excuse, though, since practically every fighter goes through family shit. I do think Fury got in Wlad's head before that fight and won the mind game (Wlad has always been on top in that regard in practically every one of his fights on that winning run). Fury was much younger but significantly inexperienced in comparison to Wlad (just compare the level of opposition both have fought before that fight). Fury was also in arguably the best shape in his career for that fight (which could have been due to the steroids).

[SeanBrennan]

I think every current generation looks to the last or past as better. Bit like everyone thinks it used to better in UK less crime / better weather bla bla

I also think people love to be whinge

[Tony1244]

Same reason they said it was weak in the 1970s. The division has "always" been weak in the present. Just like people have been bitching about the worst of times and the end of times forever.

[Thomastearns]

Because of the lack of a global superstar now that AJ has to go back to the drawing board and Mike Tyson failed to turn back the clock?

Maybe the fact that most of the contenders are over 35?

Or the fact that before Ryhadh Season the big fights were not getting made?

Or maybe it's the fact that memories are unreliable?

Isn''t everything better in our youth?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter does it?

You can only ever be the best of your time and if the likes of Tyson Fury can make £200 million in boxing, others will want to give it a go in future.

[dempseyfire]

In the 90's the Undisputed Heavyweight Champion was a former Cruiserweight too. At least for a little while.

Also a Former Light Heavyweight (Michael Moorer) was a 2x Heavyweight Champion in the 90's

Also the Oldest Man to ever win the Heavyweight Title accomplished it in the 90's.

Sounds bad when you put it like that don't it? Yet it was easily the 2nd best Heavyweight era of Boxing history. Competitive matchups, and intrigue are what make a division exciting. If Usyk beats Fury, and then retires, the division is once again wide open with several big matchups still to be made. If Usyk doesn't retire...even more that can be made.

The biggest mark against this era isn't Usyk being successful. It is the nature of his success. Like I said, he's had less than ten fights at heavyweight and is already approaching the stage of not having any more viable contenders and having been through a pair of rematches. Who else is he really gonna fight if he beats Fury again - Jared Anderson?

I don't think there's any doubt that the current Heavyweight era is superior to the 1900's, the 1910's, the 1920's, the 1930's, 1940's, 1950's, 1960's, 1980's, The whole stretch from 2004-2015 or so.

<snip>

Whether you're a fan of these guys is irrelevant. Objectively, This is one of the better eras of Heavyweight Boxing.

No. There's absolutely doubt that it is better than all the eras you mentioned. Those eras usually had more heavyweight boxers in NY state than exist in the entirety of the world today. Pointing out Joe Louis' Bum Of The Month club would be more damning if there were any modern parallels. There aren't. No one even remotely competes like that anymore. Not to mention that the "bums" he faced are probably significantly better than the B tier of modern fighters. Like, am I supposed to believe that Andy Ruiz Jr. is a product of modern nutrition and sports science who would run roughshod over the unprepared men of the 50s? He makes the coked up burnouts of the late 70s and early 80s look well conditioned.

This comment all day long. The issue with the HW division is it's shallow as hell . . .coming into fights obese is routine now even for top 10 fighters. No fighter under 6'6 should be weighing above 250 lbs.

[dempseyfire]

People who honestly think this era is weak are being ridiculous.
- Fury beat a prime Wlad, beat Wilder (who had more title defences that Vitaliy). Yeah, he doesn't really have anything that impressive on his record after that (apart from maybe the first Chisora fight when they were both undefeated), but he's a lock HOFamer and could have beaten any ATG with that skillset at his size.
-Joshua had one of the best HW fights of all time with Wlad, demolished Martin, unified the division (3 belt holder) against really good HWs like Parker, and had that impressive win against Povetkin. And he's a fringe HOFamer IMO and an Olympic gold medalist.
- Usyk is arguably a top 5-10 HW of all time after moving to the division from Cruiserweight (and he's basically the best Cruiserweight of all time) and an ATG, not to mention all the incredible amateur boxing accomplishments.
- Then you add guys like Wilder (obviously washed now but in the recent past he was good), Parker, Ruiz, Dubois as well as the young guys coming up right now...

There's never really such a thing as an era, strictly speaking, because every era intersects with the previous era and the next era. But if we look at the guys at the top in the last 6-8 years who inherited the HW crown from the Wlad era, then it's clear this era is definitely stronger than the previous one and definitely very respectable in HW history.

39 year old Klitschko was in his prime? Joshua-Klitschko one of the best HW fights of all time? It wasn't even the best heavyweight fight of that year.

[Contendeh]

At least its constant is that it’s always been that way.

There were millions of people who were sure that Holy, Lewis and Bowe would have been easy pickings for Ali, Frazier and Foreman, and that those guys would have been themselves squashed by Louis, Dempsey and Rocky.

How many people would have said Holmes was a top 5 heavy in say, 1984?

Always like that. Enjoy what’s out there now. Enjoy what comes next.

[gilgamesh]

At least its constant is that it’s always been that way.

There were millions of people who were sure that Holy, Lewis and Bowe would have been easy pickings for Ali, Frazier and Foreman, and that those guys would have been themselves squashed by Louis, Dempsey and Rocky.

How many people would have said Holmes was a top 5 heavy in say, 1984?

Always like that. Enjoy what’s out there now. Enjoy what comes next.

Was Ali the #1 Heavyweight of all time while he was the Active Champion? Like did people give him that accolade or did it only come later when he wasn't active.

Boxing fans have a habit of not appreciating guys until they're gone, and the next guy isn't able to fill his shoes.

[gilgamesh]

I think every current generation looks to the last or past as better. Bit like everyone thinks it used to better in UK less crime / better weather bla bla

I also think people love to be whinge

"The Grass ain't Greener. The Wine ain't Sweeter. On either side of the hill"

- Jerry Garcia

A lesson a lot of people would do well to remember.