Tournament Ideas...Help Please?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 18 Sep 2006, 01:34

I figured after the testing for the computer was done, and it proved to be at least 75% accurate, that I would run various tournaments at different weight classes, the ATG champions from the original 8 weight classes.

Here is the names I have thus far for each tournament:

ATG BANTAMWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Eder Jofre, Sixto Escobar, Ruben Olivares, Alphonse Halimi, Fighting Harada, Kid Williams, Johnny Coulon, Manuel Ortiz, Panama Al Brown, Johnny Ertle, Carlos Zarate, Pete Herman.

ATG FLYWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Midget Wolgast, Pascual Perez, Peter Kane, Small Montana, Miguel Canto, Benny Lynch, Masao Ohba, Jimmy Barry, Pancho Villa, Jimmy Wilde, Frankie Genaro, Fidel LaBarba.

ATG LIGHTWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Benny Leonard, Bob Montgomery, Roberto Duran, Carlos Ortiz, Beau Jack, Barney Ross, Ike Williams, Ad Wolgast, Pernell Whitaker, Tony Canzoneri, Joe Brown, Joe Gans.

ATG WELTERWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Mickey Walker, Ted Kid Lewis, Kid Gavilan, Mysterious Billy Smith, Emille Griffith, Jack Britton, Young Corbett 3, Carmen Basilio, Jose Naples, Sugar Ray Robinson, Jimmy McLarnin.

ATG FEATHERWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Willie Pep, Freddie Miller, Sandy Saddler, Eusebio Pedroza, Henry Armstrong, Azumah Nelson, Alexis Arguello, Vicente Saldivar, Salvador Sanchez, Julio Cesar Chavez, Kid Chocolate, Eder Jofre.

ATG LIGHT-HEAVYWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Archie Moore, John Henry Lewis, Micheal Spinks, Bob Foster, Roy Jones Jr, Willie Pastrano, Tommy Loughran, Billy Conn, Ezzard Charles, Maxie Rosenbloom, Harold Johnson.

ATG MIDDLEWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Carlos Monzon, Stanley Ketchell, Gene Fullmer, Harry Greb, Dick Tiger, Marvin Hagler, Jake LaMotta, Tony Zale, Bobo Olsen, Randy Turpin, Sugar Ray Robinson, Bernard Hopkins.

Some of these men have fought and won titles in other weight classes so it was hard to make a tournament for each division...if anyone has any suggestions as to who else should be added or taken out, or anything else in particular, drop your opinions.

scartissue · Post by **scartissue** » 19 Sep 2006, 15:19

Murph, since it's your tournament I won't take anyone out, although I'd act the bolocks and scrub a number of these lads in lieu of me own choice. So, right, I'll top off your list and even it out at an even 16.

Fly: you chose 12, so I'll add in Horacio Accavallo, Chartchai Chionoi, Betulio Gonzalez and Venice Borkorsor

Bantam: another 12 so add in Chucho Castillo, Rafael Herrera, Rodolfo Martinez and Jeff Chandler.

Feather: another 12 so top it off with Ernesto Marcel, Ruben Olivares, Bobby Chacon and Wilfredo Gomez

Light: 4 more so let's say Henry Armstrong, Ken Buchanan, Rodolfo Gonzalez and Alexis Arguello

Welter: You named 11 so add in Henry Armstrong, Luis Rodriguez, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran and Tommy Hearns

Middle: Charley Burley, Emile Griffith, Vito Antuofermo and Rodrigo Valdes (I'll probably take alot of stick for this one)

Lt heavy: Tiger Jack Fox, Jimmy Bivins, Lloyd Marshall, John Conteh and Victor Galindez

That's it, I'll be curious how you're running this.

Scartissue

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Sep 2006, 16:25

Well if Decagon has given it some thought and Murphy has offered it up as a possiblity let's do that next. Welter is historically a great divsion in boxing. 3rd most prestigious to my way of thinking.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 19 Sep 2006, 17:22

At the end of the computer testing, I am going to run the final fight of the original HW tournament I done [lMarciano vs Ali] and at that moment I will post up a digital plaque that a friend of mine has been making for me and it will announce who is the ATG HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION [as determined by the accuracy of Title Bout].

The other tournaments [notice they are of the original 8 weight classes] will also be run by the same simulator where I will have individual matches and wittle it down fight by fight, until there is only one for each weight class, those men will also have digital plaques proclaiming themselves as the ATG champions of their weight class, again, as determined by the accuracy of the Title Bout simulator.

Doesn't really matter to me in what order these tournaments will take place, although I thought of going down from HW to LHW to MW to Welter and etc.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 19 Sep 2006, 21:43

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I figured after the testing for the computer was done, and it proved to be at least 75% accurate, that I would run various tournaments at different weight classes, the ATG champions from the original 8 weight classes.

Here is the names I have thus far for each tournament:

ATG BANTAMWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Eder Jofre, Sixto Escobar, Ruben Olivares, Alphonse Halimi, Fighting Harada, Kid Williams, Johnny Coulon, Manuel Ortiz, Panama Al Brown, Johnny Ertle, Carlos Zarate, Pete Herman.

ATG FLYWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Midget Wolgast, Pascual Perez, Peter Kane, Small Montana, Miguel Canto, Benny Lynch, Masao Ohba, Jimmy Barry, Pancho Villa, Jimmy Wilde, Frankie Genaro, Fidel LaBarba.

ATG LIGHTWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Benny Leonard, Bob Montgomery, Roberto Duran, Carlos Ortiz, Beau Jack, Barney Ross, Ike Williams, Ad Wolgast, Pernell Whitaker, Tony Canzoneri, Joe Brown, Joe Gans.

ATG WELTERWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Mickey Walker, Ted Kid Lewis, Kid Gavilan, Mysterious Billy Smith, Emille Griffith, Jack Britton, Young Corbett 3, Carmen Basilio, Jose Naples, Sugar Ray Robinson, Jimmy McLarnin.

ATG FEATHERWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Willie Pep, Freddie Miller, Sandy Saddler, Eusebio Pedroza, Henry Armstrong, Azumah Nelson, Alexis Arguello, Vicente Saldivar, Salvador Sanchez, Julio Cesar Chavez, Kid Chocolate, Eder Jofre.

ATG LIGHT-HEAVYWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Archie Moore, John Henry Lewis, Micheal Spinks, Bob Foster, Roy Jones Jr, Willie Pastrano, Tommy Loughran, Billy Conn, Ezzard Charles, Maxie Rosenbloom, Harold Johnson.

ATG MIDDLEWEIGHT TOURNAMENT

Carlos Monzon, Stanley Ketchell, Gene Fullmer, Harry Greb, Dick Tiger, Marvin Hagler, Jake LaMotta, Tony Zale, Bobo Olsen, Randy Turpin, Sugar Ray Robinson, Bernard Hopkins.

Some of these men have fought and won titles in other weight classes so it was hard to make a tournament for each division...if anyone has any suggestions as to who else should be added or taken out, or anything else in particular, drop your opinions.

Gene Tunney should be part of the light-heavyweight tournament, don't you think? Drop Pastrano.

Otherwise good effort.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 19 Sep 2006, 23:33

I will add Gene Tunney to the LHW tournament, because, in my mind anyways, Tunney's greatest accomplishments were at LHW, not at HW.

I think an intriguing match-up would be Tunney vs Charles...considering the two men were two of the best LHW's but never won a title at the weight.

AND I want to thank Scartissue for offering up those names...it will surely be beneficial to me in setting up the tournaments.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 19 Sep 2006, 23:44

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:I will add Gene Tunney to the LHW tournament, because, in my mind anyways, Tunney's greatest accomplishments were at LHW, not at HW.

I think an intriguing match-up would be Tunney vs Charles...considering the two men were two of the best LHW's but never won a title at the weight.

Charles and Tunney are my #1 and 2 at light-heavyweight.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 20 Sep 2006, 00:21

Charles is definately #1 no matter how you want to look at it...Tunney on the other hand, I can't say he is #2 but he does fit inside the top 10 or 15 of all time...

I say that for a few reasons:

-He drew the color line, but then again I cannot hold Tunney out on that either, because there were several others who didn't face black fighters of any rank either.

-A great deal of his wins were against nobodies...from 1915-1921 he compiled a record of 45-0-2, mostly against a rag-tag bunch of fighters who had mediocre records. He did have a very splendid amateur background, and for those first 47 fights as a professional he might as well have been fighting amateurs.

-Don't let the records fool you. Harry Greb beat the technically sound Tunney out-right more than once, but didn't get the decisions. Greb won at least 3 times out of the 5 against Tunney, but the decisions were Tunney's. Read the newspaper reports, outside of Tunney landing the harder punches, it was clear that Greb landed the most.

-Tunney did beat a good assortment of LHW's, including Battling Levinsky, Tommy Loughran, Georges Carpentier to name a few. Outside of 'winning' the American Light Heavyweight title twice Tunney did not pursue the world title, instead opting to fight at HW, which does make his over-all record really satisfactory, but his LHW resume is dampened.

-After 1924 the LHW Tunney was over with, though he did face Harry Greb again for the 5th and final time but was a HW while Greb was only 167 pounds. From that point on he devoted himself to the HW ranks, beating Tommy Gibbons and a green Johnny Risko for a shot at Jack Dempsey, who had been inactive for over 3 years. He beats Dempsey, and then opted for a rematch with Dempsey rather than contender George Godfery, beats Dempsey again---again dodges Godfrey to take on Willie Meehan and then retires.

On another note, whether it be because Tunney wanted to not hurt anyone, or wanted to make a show of some of his fights, or maybe he was working some fights crooked---he was known to "pull" punches when facing less experienced opponents, and even when he was a top contender still fought guys with terrible records.

So...minus the 47 fights in his early years, and take away what he done as a Heavyweight, and then judge Gene Tunney [1921-1924]. That's why I don't rate him as a great LHW, he did win alot of good fights, but he didn't do anything too amazing---but deserving enough to be in the top 10 or 15 LHW's of all time.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 20 Sep 2006, 00:36

IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Charles is definately #1 no matter how you want to look at it...Tunney on the other hand, I can't say he is #2 but he does fit inside the top 10 or 15 of all time...

I say that for a few reasons:

-He drew the color line, but then again I cannot hold Tunney out on that either, because there were several others who didn't face black fighters of any rank either.

-A great deal of his wins were against nobodies...from 1915-1921 he compiled a record of 45-0-2, mostly against a rag-tag bunch of fighters who had mediocre records. He did have a very splendid amateur background, and for those first 47 fights as a professional he might as well have been fighting amateurs.

-Don't let the records fool you. Harry Greb beat the technically sound Tunney out-right more than once, but didn't get the decisions. Greb won at least 3 times out of the 5 against Tunney, but the decisions were Tunney's. Read the newspaper reports, outside of Tunney landing the harder punches, it was clear that Greb landed the most.

-Tunney did beat a good assortment of LHW's, including Battling Levinsky, Tommy Loughran, Georges Carpentier to name a few. Outside of 'winning' the American Light Heavyweight title twice Tunney did not pursue the world title, instead opting to fight at HW, which does make his over-all record really satisfactory, but his LHW resume is dampened.

-After 1924 the LHW Tunney was over with, though he did face Harry Greb again for the 5th and final time but was a HW while Greb was only 167 pounds. From that point on he devoted himself to the HW ranks, beating Tommy Gibbons and a green Johnny Risko for a shot at Jack Dempsey, who had been inactive for over 3 years. He beats Dempsey, and then opted for a rematch with Dempsey rather than contender George Godfery, beats Dempsey again---again dodges Godfrey to take on Willie Meehan and then retires.

On another note, whether it be because Tunney wanted to not hurt anyone, or wanted to make a show of some of his fights, or maybe he was working some fights crooked---he was known to "pull" punches when facing less experienced opponents, and even when he was a top contender still fought guys with terrible records.

So...minus the 47 fights in his early years, and take away what he done as a Heavyweight, and then judge Gene Tunney [1921-1924]. That's why I don't rate him as a great LHW, he did win alot of good fights, but he didn't do anything too amazing---but deserving enough to be in the top 10 or 15 LHW's of all time.

Well, several things I see differently. In their last fight, Tunney beat up Greb so badly that Greb said Tunney would for sure knock him out were they to fight again. And Tunney is the ONLY light-heavyweight of that era who could beat Greb -- Loughran, Gibbons, Delaney, Levinsky, Renault, Rosenbloom, you name them - failed. This alone makes Tunney clearly the best light-heavyweight of the 1920s, which in turn was one of the best eras in light-heavyweight boxing.

As for Godrey, I can't here this retarded story any more that he was supposed to have been the obvious contender in 1927/28. He wasn't. If there was a more deserving congtender than Dempsey it was Sharkey. Btw, Risko had a fine run before he lost to Tunney, and Gibbons was still a master boxer.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 20 Sep 2006, 01:13

Yes but Risko was a HW and so was Gibbons [he campaigned at both LHW and HW]. Everything before 1924 was the LHW Tunney, and since we are judging him by his LHW accomplishments, we ain't overally interested in what he done 1924 and beyond.

As far as saying Tunney was the best LHW of his time based on his wins over Greb, who beat alot of LHW's and a few HW's himself, you have to figure that Greb was more or less a MW fighting much larger men, and Greb beat Tunney the first three times they fought eachother, though the records say Greb won all but one time.

I ain't saying that takes away from Tunney as a fighter, but nonetheless we are talking about LHW accomplishments. By the time they had fought in their last fight, you have to figure "The Human Windmill" was showing some signs of deterioration, Tunney was then campaigning as a HW and Greb still was a MW in size.

AND...it was a great era for the LHW division...but Tunney did not also face, the lineal LHW champion, or the top black men at the weight, nor did he square off [as a HW] against the top black men either. There were several other matches he could have took against really good LHW's but didn't.

Unlike Ezzard Charles who more or less cleaned out the entire LHW division when he was fighting at the weight, Tunney didn't. Sure he faced a mixed bag of good fighters and some future champions, but he never really got to his full potential at that weight class---and that's what hurts him.

BUT....Tunney almost did...and both he and Charles later became HW champions....that's where they are so much alike. That's the comparison between the two...but Tunney didn't face and defeat the very best, Charles did though he was never given a crack at the 175 pound crown.

Do I think Tunney could have been the LHW champion? The odds are stacked in his favor. Though he would have went up against the likes of Battling Siki, Mike McTigue, Paul Berlenbach, Jack Delaney, Maxie Rosenbloom and Jimmy Slattery---to name a few, who would all later become champions or were champions.

in 1923 Battling Siki was the champion, then Mike McTigue, then Berlenbach. Mickey Walker, Young Stribling would have been good fights too, considering they as well campaigned against LHW's.

There were alot of men Tunney didn't face. Compare that to Ezzard Charles and how he fared against the LHW division---he should have gotten a crack at that title but never did thanks to Archie Moore who was deathly afraid of risking his title to a man who kicked his ass three times.

How can you not see that?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 20 Sep 2006, 01:59

IrishRufusMurphy wrote: ...

Most guys you mention as possible Tunney opponents where not yet on the scene by the time Tuney stepped up to HW. Hence he couldn't have fought them. Tunney fought most world classy LHWs of his era and beat them all. The one possible exception is Kid Norfolk - color line.

I don't know from where you take that Tunney went 0-3 in the first three fights with Greb. He clearly won the third fight, and the second was disputed. The fourth was also close. In the fifth Tunney massacred Greb (btw, where do you take from that 26-year-old Greb was deteriorating? He won his next 24 fights)). Tunney came it at 181, 6 pounds above LHW, whiloe Greb came in at 163, also heavier than usual.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 20 Sep 2006, 04:19

IRM

Wouldn't it be a good idea to get input from the board on how to rate the fighters? I know I disagree with a lot of the title bout ratings (though all in all they've done a good job). It would be much more of a boxrec tournament if the forum had at least some input into the various ratings of ther top fighters.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Sep 2006, 06:43

1 Archie Moore 5,101 1935 - 1963 185-23-11

2 Harold Johnson 4,108 1946 - 1971 76-10-0

3 Billy Conn 3,018 1934 - 1948 64-12-1

4 Bob Foster 2,625 1961 - 1978 56-8-1

5 Joey Maxim 2,546 1941 - 1958 82-29-4

6 Maxie Rosenbloom 2,421 1923 - 1939 221-42-32

7 Willie Pastrano 2,392 1951 - 1965 63-13-8

8 John Conteh 2,356 1971 - 1980 34-4-1

9 John Henry Lewis 2,270 1931 - 1939 93-8-5

10 Roy Jones Jr 2,254 1989 - 2006 50-4-0

11 Victor Galindez 2,239 1969 - 1980 55-9-4

12 Michael Spinks 2,078 1977 - 1988 31-1-0

13 Jose Torres 2,032 1958 - 1969 41-3-1

14 Yolande Pompey 1,973 1949 - 1961 38-12-5

15 Tommy Loughran 1,951 1919 - 1937 113-30-12

16 Gus Lesnevich 1,945 1934 - 1949 59-14-5

17 Matthew Saad Muhammad 1,932 1974 - 1992 39-16-3

18 Lloyd Marshall 1,896 1936 - 1951 71-25-4

19 Erich Schoppner 1,893 1956 - 1966 34-1-5

20 Dwight Muhammad Qawi 1,870 1978 - 1998 41-11-1

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Sep 2006, 06:45

1 Carlos Monzon 6,293 1963 - 1977 87-3-9

2 Sugar Ray Robinson 6,116 1940 - 1965 173-19-6

3 Gene Fullmer 4,979 1951 - 1963 55-6-3

4 Dick Tiger 4,807 1952 - 1970 61-17-3

5 Marvin Hagler 3,782 1973 - 1987 62-3-2

6 Joey Giardello 3,723 1948 - 1967 101-25-7

7 Carl 'Bobo' Olson 3,525 1944 - 1966 96-16-2

8 Nino Benvenuti 3,421 1961 - 1971 82-7-1

9 Harry Greb 2,762 1913 - 1926 259-21-17

10 Marcel Thil 2,710 1920 - 1937 112-22-14

11 Rodrigo Valdez 2,698 1963 - 1980 63-8-2

12 Freddie Steele 2,654 1926 - 1941 125-5-11

13 Randy Turpin 2,596 1946 - 1964 66-8-1

14 Jake LaMotta 2,596 1941 - 1954 83-19-4

15 Fred Apostoli 2,595 1934 - 1948 61-10-1

16 Joey Archer 2,586 1956 - 1967 45-4-0

17 Mickey Walker 2,582 1919 - 1935 109-21-4

18 Terry Downes 2,550 1957 - 1964 35-9-0

19 Spider Webb 2,545 1953 - 1961 34-6-0

20 Charles Humez 2,519 1948 - 1958 93-7-2

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Sep 2006, 06:48

1 Barney Ross 4,943 1929 - 1938 74-4-3

2 Emile Griffith 4,940 1958 - 1977 85-24-2

3 Henry Armstrong 4,567 1931 - 1945 151-21-10

4 Young Corbett III 4,376 1919 - 1940 124-12-20

5 Kid Gavilan 4,291 1943 - 1958 108-30-5

6 Jimmy McLarnin 4,159 1923 - 1936 55-11-3

7 Carmen Basilio 3,956 1948 - 1961 56-16-7

8 Jose Angel Napoles 3,897 1958 - 1975 78-7-0

9 Luis Manuel Rodriguez 3,719 1956 - 1972 107-13-0

10 Sugar Ray Leonard 3,218 1977 - 1997 36-3-1

11 Johnny Saxton 2,941 1949 - 1958 55-9-2

12 Jack Carroll 2,828 1923 - 1938 90-10-4

13 Pernell Whitaker 2,743 1984 - 2001 40-4-1

14 Curtis Cokes 2,716 1958 - 1972 62-14-3

15 Jackie Fields 2,649 1925 - 1933 72-9-2

16 Freddie Dawson 2,535 1943 - 1954 101-13-3

17 Johnny Indrisano 2,450 1923 - 1934 36-9-1

18 Andy Callahan 2,431 1928 - 1940 40-13-2

19 Floyd Mayweather 2,358 1996 - 2006 36-0-0

20 Brian Curvis 2,336 1959 - 1966 37-4-0

21 California Jackie Wilson 2,225 1936 - 1949 65-20-6

22 Felix Trinidad 2,171 1990 - 2005 42-2-0

23 George Costner 2,124 1940 - 1950 73-10-5

24 Vince Martinez 2,106 1949 - 1961 69-8-0

25 Wilfred Benitez 2,100 1973 - 1990 53-8-1

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 20 Sep 2006, 06:50

I'm just offering this info up for consideration if someone does start a tournament. I'm not supporting the accuracy of the ratings. However I am in agreement with who sits on top of the ratings in the LHW and MW divisions.

Gives some great choices as to who should be included though. With some great dark horse ideas.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 20 Sep 2006, 10:11

BoxBuzz wrote:I'm just offering this info up for consideration if someone does start a tournament. I'm not supporting the accuracy of the ratings. However I am in agreement with who sits on top of the ratings in the LHW and MW divisions.

Gives some great choices as to who should be included though. With some great dark horse ideas.

So where would Tunney be if he would be recorded as a light-heavyweight in boxrec's rankings.

JC · Post by JC » 20 Sep 2006, 10:21

He's got 2,409 "points" so 7th.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 20 Sep 2006, 10:40

J-C wrote:He's got 2,409 "points" so 7th.

Is it that simple?

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 20 Sep 2006, 10:48

Isnt he along with Charles rated as HWs? If not then you would have to consider each as top LHWs.

JC · Post by JC » 20 Sep 2006, 11:10

pundit wrote:
J-C wrote:He's got 2,409 "points" so 7th.
Is it that simple?

I assume so, obviously that points total includes his career at HW as well but I assume that although Dick Tiger is rated at middleweight his points total includes his fights at light-heavyweight

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 20 Sep 2006, 18:26

Most guys you mention as possible Tunney opponents where not yet on the scene by the time Tuney stepped up to HW. Hence he couldn't have fought them. Tunney fought most world classy LHWs of his era and beat them all. The one possible exception is Kid Norfolk - color line.

I don't know from where you take that Tunney went 0-3 in the first three fights with Greb. He clearly won the third fight, and the second was disputed. The fourth was also close. In the fifth Tunney massacred Greb (btw, where do you take from that 26-year-old Greb was deteriorating? He won his next 24 fights)). Tunney came it at 181, 6 pounds above LHW, whiloe Greb came in at 163, also heavier than usual.

I'll try and make what I am saying clearer:

-Tunney could have faced more contenders.

Mind you he continued fighting as a LHW off and on up until the first Dempsey fight, though 1924 onward he was mainly going for a HW title shot.

He could have faced the following champions, but didn't, Battling Siki, Mike McTigue, Paul Berlenbach. He also could have fought Mickey Walker and Young Stribling, who were also facing against LHW's and HW's of the time. He could have also faced former champion Jack Dillon, but didn't. He also could have faced Kid Norfolk, Maxie Rosenbloom and others. He chose not to.

He could have had his shots at LHW, but didn't take on Siki, McTigue [who generally would have been the easiest opponent of the champions I listed] and could have faced off with Berlenbach when he became champion. He was still facing LHW's off and on by that time, he could have faced off with them...but didn't.

His resume as a LHW is great, but he just didn't face enough of the best, in my mind, to warrant him a #2 or top 5 status. There were so many others he could have faced.

As far as the Greb comments I made, Greb won but one fight against Tunney and was robbed in two other fights [is what I meant to say]. So more or less Tunney went 2-3 with the great Harry Greb---and the last encounter was with a visibly deteriorated Greb, who was facing Tunney, now as a HW, and Greb was still in the MW class.

Let's really break down Tunney's career, ok?

-First 47 bouts [45-0-2] were against mediocre opposition and/or military fighters.

-May 2nd, 1918 Tunney enlists in the Marines. Hank Wuehrl, Johnny Newton, Victor Marchand, Howard Morrow, Tommy Gavigan, Bob Martin, Indian Lewis, K.O. Sullivan, Ted Jamieson, plus an additional other 20 men [all service men] in France. He won the LHW American Expediciary Forces title. Bob Martin was the HW champion. All these fighters are on Tunney's record, so more or less 30 bouts of the 47 were against military men.

-1924 onward fights as a part-time LHW but mainly campaigning as a HW contender beating the likes of Tommy Gibbons and Johnny Risko [16-8 at the time], earning him a shot at Jack Dempsey who was 3yrs inactive and passed his best.

Now let's look at the pros and cons:

-Held wins over former champions, Georges Carpentier and Battling Levinsky, as well as wins over future champion Tommy Loughran.

-Could have faced a broader range of contenders such as Maxie Rosenbloom, Kid Norfolk, former champion Jack Dillon and a few others.

-Had the chance to go up against three different champions at LHW, but didn't. Those men were Battling Siki, Mike McTigue and Paul Berlenbach.

-He drew the color line. But then again I cannot point fingers at Tunney, because alot of fighters did as well.

-Took on a few questionable opponents even when he was a contender for both the LHW and HW titles.

Final Analysis:

Toss out the HW accomplishments and his first 47 bouts [he might as well been fighting amateurs ffs], he still makes a great LHW fighter, but with so many things going against him, he certainly does not make a top 5.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 20 Sep 2006, 21:40

Pundit

Tommy Gibbons beat Greb at LHW in 1920 via a newspaper decision.

Tournament Ideas...Help Please?

Tournament Ideas...Help Please?

Re: Tournament Ideas...Help Please?