Gerry Cooney vs Lewis?

The Great John L
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Post by The Great John L »

silkov wrote:The truth is that Ruddock was never that exceptional to start with... good power mainly but other than that not exceptional in anything... he was hardly the second coming of George Foreman... his hard fights with Tyson say as much for the ear eaters flaws and limitations as they do about Ruddocks ability.... also if Ruddock was so affected by the crowd against Lewis then he obviously didnt have the heart to make it in the ring... facing hostile crowds is something that fighters should be able to do with ease if they are the real deal...
Actually, if you followed his career, Ruddock had some pretty solid wins. He showed a very good jab in his win over Weaver, and also beat Bonecrusher, Dokes and Page as well as a number of fringe guys like Broad and Jackson. I’m not sure where that jab he used against Weaver went later in his career, but he was still a pretty solid fighter. While I agree he was no Foreman, I think all of us on this forum are probably trying real hard not to acknowledge his accomplishments just to counter the over the top pro Razor posts made by RazorKO. :TU:
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Post by Ezzard »

The Great John L wrote:
silkov wrote:The truth is that Ruddock was never that exceptional to start with... good power mainly but other than that not exceptional in anything... he was hardly the second coming of George Foreman... his hard fights with Tyson say as much for the ear eaters flaws and limitations as they do about Ruddocks ability.... also if Ruddock was so affected by the crowd against Lewis then he obviously didnt have the heart to make it in the ring... facing hostile crowds is something that fighters should be able to do with ease if they are the real deal...
Actually, if you followed his career, Ruddock had some pretty solid wins. He showed a very good jab in his win over Weaver, and also beat Bonecrusher, Dokes and Page as well as a number of fringe guys like Broad and Jackson. I’m not sure where that jab he used against Weaver went later in his career, but he was still a pretty solid fighter. While I agree he was no Foreman, I think all of us on this forum are probably trying real hard not to acknowledge his accomplishments just to counter the over the top pro Razor posts made by RazorKO. :TU:
You've got to give it to Razor he really polarizes opinion on the forum.
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Post by silkov »

The Great John L wrote:
silkov wrote:The truth is that Ruddock was never that exceptional to start with... good power mainly but other than that not exceptional in anything... he was hardly the second coming of George Foreman... his hard fights with Tyson say as much for the ear eaters flaws and limitations as they do about Ruddocks ability.... also if Ruddock was so affected by the crowd against Lewis then he obviously didnt have the heart to make it in the ring... facing hostile crowds is something that fighters should be able to do with ease if they are the real deal...
Actually, if you followed his career, Ruddock had some pretty solid wins. He showed a very good jab in his win over Weaver, and also beat Bonecrusher, Dokes and Page as well as a number of fringe guys like Broad and Jackson. I’m not sure where that jab he used against Weaver went later in his career, but he was still a pretty solid fighter. While I agree he was no Foreman, I think all of us on this forum are probably trying real hard not to acknowledge his accomplishments just to counter the over the top pro Razor posts made by RazorKO. :TU:
Yeah, he was a decent fighter but nothing really special... his wins over Weaver and Page came when both of those guys were about a decade past their primes... which should really put Ruddock (and indeed Tyson) into perspective...
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Post by overhand_right »

Weaver a decade past his prime? 1976 was Weavers 'prime'?

Earlier in 1986 Weaver had demolished Carl The Truth Williams. The previous year he had fought for the world title. He was still a live threat against any top 10 contender and Ruddock boxed his way to a 10 rd decision.

Just give the man credit. In 1992 no one except Lewis was willing to fight him. Not Bowe, not Foreman, not Holmes, not Morrison, not Moorer, not Mercer... Lol, if you recall those times, they were all always calling each other out, NOBODY ever called out Ruddock after his two Tyson fights.
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Post by RazorKO »

overhand_right wrote:Razor... You think Tyson was WINNING the 3rd rd v Holyfield..?

The rd wasn't even complete, yet he was trying to break Holys arm & twice bit his ear. He came out swining wildly in desperation at the start & Holy wisely backed up, but THAT WAS IT. He was not winning. He was desperate.

As for wining about any supposed headbutts, Tyson was always happy to use his own head, shoulder, elbow, hit after the bell, just ask Holmes, Bruno, Douglas, Ruddock, etc. Too bad someone turned his own bully boy tactics back round on him.
You are your mistaking the Holyfield fight with the Botha one. Tyson never tried to break Holy's arm and after the head tactics Holyfield used Tyson simply retaliated. Both Tyson and Holyfield are as dirty as each other and according to Foreman, George said Evander was the dirtiest fighter he's ever faced.

Watch that 3rd round again, Tyson had Holyfield in trouble with the right-to the body - uppercut which he landed so i see absolutley no way Tyson bit his ear just to prevent himself being knocked out. If Tyson wanted to quit he should of done it in the 2nd round when he was cut.
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Post by RazorKO »

silkov wrote:The truth is that Ruddock was never that exceptional to start with... good power mainly but other than that not exceptional in anything... he was hardly the second coming of George Foreman... his hard fights with Tyson say as much for the ear eaters flaws and limitations as they do about Ruddocks ability.... also if Ruddock was so affected by the crowd against Lewis then he obviously didnt have the heart to make it in the ring... facing hostile crowds is something that fighters should be able to do with ease if they are the real deal...
Before Ruddock turned puncher, he was a very good boxer who emulated his style on Ali. In the Weaver fight Ruddock dominated the fight with his fast jab-right hand combinations with the exception of the 4th round where Weaver hit Ruddock with that massive left hook which stunned him.
Weaver landed the same left hook on Ruddock like he did on Tate and the Razor was able to remain on his feet and fight, someone thing Lewis is totatly incapable off.
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Post by The Great John L »

RazorKO wrote:Watch that 3rd round again, Tyson had Holyfield in trouble with the right-to the body - uppercut which he landed so i see absolutley no way Tyson bit his ear just to prevent himself being knocked out. If Tyson wanted to quit he should of done it in the 2nd round when he was cut.
I asked it before, now I’ll ask it again. Then why did he bite Holyfield’s ears?
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Post by The Great John L »

RazorKO wrote:Weaver landed the same left hook on Ruddock like he did on Tate and the Razor was able to remain on his feet and fight, someone thing Lewis is totatly incapable off.
Sorry, but he didn’t land the same left hook on Razor that he landed on Tate. That’s just a ridiculous comment.
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Post by RazorKO »

The Great John L wrote:
RazorKO wrote:Watch that 3rd round again, Tyson had Holyfield in trouble with the right-to the body - uppercut which he landed so i see absolutley no way Tyson bit his ear just to prevent himself being knocked out. If Tyson wanted to quit he should of done it in the 2nd round when he was cut.
I asked it before, now I’ll ask it again. Then why did he bite Holyfield’s ears?
And I said it before, but Ill say it again. Tyson bit Holyfield's ears in retliation to his headbutting.
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Post by RazorKO »

The Great John L wrote:
RazorKO wrote:Weaver landed the same left hook on Ruddock like he did on Tate and the Razor was able to remain on his feet and fight, someone thing Lewis is totatly incapable off.
Sorry, but he didn’t land the same left hook on Razor that he landed on Tate. That’s just a ridiculous comment.
Weaver put all his might into that left hook and it landed as flush as Ive ever seen, but Ruddock though staggered never went down and continued to fight back.

The same Weaver who knocked out steel-chinned Coetzee, KO'ed Williams, Tate, Mercado and gave a Prime Holmes and Pinklon Thomas very hard fights. Infact Weaver I believe was ahead on the scorecards whilst fighting Thomas and Thomas just landed one desperation right hand which ended the fight.
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Post by overhand_right »

RazorKO wrote:
You are your mistaking the Holyfield fight with the Botha one. Tyson never tried to break Holy's arm and after the head tactics Holyfield used Tyson simply retaliated.
I can spot the difference between Frans Botha and Evander Holyfield. You have just never noticed the incident. Not long before he bites his ear he tries break Holys arm, same 'tactic' he employed v Botha. At this point he looks like a scared, dispirited and desperate man. Although you feel he was 'winning'. Holy is so enraged he nearly lifts Tyson off the floor and flings him into the ropes.

Holy, too strong mentally for Tyson.

Re-watch Holy/Tyson II rd 3 to see a clear example of Tyson trying to twist another opponents arm off.
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Post by overhand_right »

Decagon wrote:He was a good 5 or 6 years past his prime, and he'd lost two out of his previous three bouts by TKO. The Williams fight showed that he was still dangerous, and he was a "useful" heavyweight into the 1990s. Page, on the other hand, was almost a decade past his prime.
About 6 years past his best IMO. But he was still a hell of a tough bastard and kept getting fights with top 10 ranked heavies. In his next fight after Ruddock he decked & easily outpointed a still very fit & hard hitting Bonecrusher Smith.

Page was a long way from being shot.
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Post by jezzamundo »

Quote:
Well the closest person I can think off who had the punching power and speed is Louis. You still havent answered my question however about naming a HW who had these unique attributes. And then you say Tyson has limited ability!


This is nonsense mate. Punching speed and power are usually physical gifts, hence attributes, Herbie Hide had them to such an extent he could hurt much bigger men. However, Louis had punch placement and the ability to mix-up his shots perfectly, his best punch was the left hook-right cross, they came as one. Tyson punches fast but where was his speed and power beyond his 93 second prime? Louis could hit hard throughout his career because he could thread a shot in, Tyson went on headless chicken attacks. Tyson did have limited ability, not even a fat Toney Soprano lookalike shouting numbers into his ears can disguise that (This Rooney the genius trainer act should go the way of Cus and the Kid fairytales, where are Rooney's other great fighters?). Even in his prime Mike would throw shots with the other arm bent at a porous angle, he also often brought his foot off the floor when swinging. Beyond his speed his technique was poor. Plus, to answer another thread, Larry Holmes fought like Larry Holmes for a single minute and out-boxed Mediocre Mike.

Quote:
You're not average if you knockout 4 former World champs and give the best of his era tough fights. Lewis got Ruddock when he was already finished from those 19 rounds with Tyson, 10 of those rounds where he fought with a broken jaw. Plus as I already stated on how these so called 'Fans' treated him during the intervals. Tell me this though, where do these so called British 'Fans' get all this hate from? Booing the fighter is one thing, but booing the national anthem is a pure disgrace


Cut the stats, I don't do them. Ruddock was average, my eyes tell me that and my expertise endorses it, if he was finished after 19 tough rounds he is a pussy, if he cannot fight due to being booed he is also a faggot (in the sense of not manning up and ramming the chants down the fans throats). Fighters fight numerous tough rounds. Ruddock stood right in front of Tyson and the men traded blow for blow, often 1-2 at a time. It was slugfest, two defence and technique free guys teeing off. Ruddock got in with a fresh young up and comer, in Lewis, and was blown away, that is Razor Ruddock for you. He is the key to Tyson's 'greatness', the only time Tyson gritted it out.

Quote:
Yet again you seem to forget that Tyson was WINNING, thats right WINNING the 3rd round against Holyfield in the rematch. It looked just like a prime Mike and it looked to me that Evander was starting to get into trouble, why would Tyson bite Holyfield's ear when he was just starting to hurt him? But then again both Holyfield and Tyson are true HW greats.


Winning the round? My, my, that is me sorted out then, aside from the fact Holyfield was winning the fight and had won the prior meeting by brutalising Tyson. Tyson caught Evander and did not budge him and knew Evander would back him up and KO him, so he quit out. It must be a Brownsville thing, when en masse attack, when out-gunned run like hell. Prime Mike? The 93 second one? Or the one who got battered by Douglas, oh I forget, he'd peaked by then. Mike quit versus Evander, as he tried to do when Botha had a decent round, as he did versus Williams, as he did versus McBride. By the way when Lewis smeg Tyson Mike could be heard saying "I'm done!" Holyfield gets attacked and says "Put my gumshield in, I'm going to knock this guy out!"

Quote:
And Lewis made Shannon Briggs look like a Prime Foreman who had just demolished Frazier for the title, but then again Lewis doesnt deserve to be mentioned in the same sentance as Big George.


Evidently you recanted that view because you just did.

Lewis has one hard round versus Briggs, a fast hitting and hard punching heavyweight, one of only two of all time apparently. Difference? Lewis KO'd Briggs, he did not bite him or get himself DQ'd so he could still say "I'm street, I'm tough." Lewis had more toughness than Tyson could ever muster.

Quote:
Just like how a prime Ali lost to Berbick, or how about Ron Crammer when he beat the hell of a prime Jerry Quarry? Crammer according to your logic must be a hidden HW great.


Ali lost to Berbick, Tyson quit in his last two fights. Sitting on his bum crying about a poorly knee against a distinctly un-Berbick like Williams who was coming off a loss to Sprott.

I like Tyson, I watch his fights but the guy was getting hit with lead left uppercuts by Biggs for gods sake. He is a hype-monster, history will suss the guy out.

You should change your name to Razor KO'd and stop playing that, 'I cannot address that point so I'll throw up a stat' routine, it does not fly here.
Great post, Terence. Apart from the bit about calling someone a faggot. That was kinda uncool. I have gay friends, have some respect :(

Like I said though Terence > Razor
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Post by The Great John L »

Yes, excellent post Terrence. I always keep forgetting to ask Tyson supporters to list all the other great fighters that Rooney has trained when they say how much Mike suffered without Rooney. Glad you brought that one up. :TU:
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Post by RazorKO »

This is nonsense mate. Punching speed and power are usually physical gifts, hence attributes, Herbie Hide had them to such an extent he could hurt much bigger men. However, Louis had punch placement and the ability to mix-up his shots perfectly, his best punch was the left hook-right cross, they came as one. Tyson punches fast but where was his speed and power beyond his 93 second prime? Louis could hit hard throughout his career because he could thread a shot in, Tyson went on headless chicken attacks. Tyson did have limited ability, not even a fat Toney Soprano lookalike shouting numbers into his ears can disguise that (This Rooney the genius trainer act should go the way of Cus and the Kid fairytales, where are Rooney's other great fighters?). Even in his prime Mike would throw shots with the other arm bent at a porous angle, he also often brought his foot off the floor when swinging. Beyond his speed his technique was poor. Plus, to answer another thread, Larry Holmes fought like Larry Holmes for a single minute and out-boxed Mediocre Mike
Again out of this long post you fail to mention a single HW who had the attributes of Tyson and you cant compare someone like Herbie Hide to Tyson. If Tyson had 'Limited ability' how did win the title? How did he win all 3 belts and become the first Undisputed champ since Spinks beat Ali?
Someone with limited ability is someone like Alfredo Evangeslita or Marvis Frazier. You really need to get your brown nose out of Lewis's ass-cheeks and see the real picture.

Also about Kevin Rooney, the man was an excellent trainer and was out there for Mike and Mike only - Rooney wasnt there just to get himself rich unlike those handlers Mike had in the Douglas fight where one of them used an unblown baloon with ice to heal the swelling instead of a compress.
Cut the stats, I don't do them. Ruddock was average, my eyes tell me that and my expertise endorses it, if he was finished after 19 tough rounds he is a pussy, if he cannot fight due to being booed he is also a faggot (in the sense of not manning up and ramming the chants down the fans throats)
So now Ruddock is a pussy on going toe to toe with arguably the most powerful puncher in the history of the sport?
The only 'Faggots'or should I saw Cowards are these shitty British fans who like to boo other fighters national anthems but dont have the bravery to step into the ring, Ive never seen this anywhere else but in Britain. I just want to dare these British hooligans (football is just the same) in the 2010 WC to come to MY country and start breaking MY cities like they did in Germany, I garantee our police arent tolerant damn wimps like they are over there.
Lewis has one hard round versus Briggs, a fast hitting and hard punching heavyweight, one of only two of all time apparently. Difference? Lewis KO'd Briggs,
I like it how you make Briggs out to be a great fighter but then your head is so far up Lewis's ass you dont realise the difference because Tyson also KO'ed Frans Botha as well when he was behind on points and he was never staggered like a drunk.

." Lewis had more toughness than Tyson could ever muster.

The man was knocked out by a Single freaking punch! And that by 2 journeyman! Tyson has only ever been KO'ed by a sustained beating. Hell Frank Bruno has never been taken out by a single blow like Lewis has but everyone seems to critize Bruno for having a glass jaw.
I like Tyson, I watch his fights but the guy was getting hit with lead left uppercuts by Biggs for gods sake.
And Holmes was floored by Isaac and Snipes for gods sake. I can put this stupid 'logic' on any fighter.
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Post by The Great John L »

RazorKO wrote:Someone with limited ability is someone like Alfredo Evangeslita or Marvis Frazier.
Actually, Marvis Frazier had pretty good fighting abilities. What he lacked was a chin.

However, I do agree with you that Tyson had a great deal of ability, but I think he was also a pretty one dimensional fighter. Still a great fighter, but I think he falls a bit short of the absolute best HWs of all time, but this is all just opinion. As I’ve stated many times before, you could sum up the all-time great HWs as Ali, Louis and then everybody else. :TU:
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Post by Lenny »

Razor, why do you keep mentioning English hooligans in this thread? How is it connected to the possible outcome of a Lewis v Cooney fight? Or to Ruddock's abilities as a fighter?

Would it be fair to say your opinion of Lewis is guided by your hate for the English?
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Post by Flump »

The only 'Faggots'or should I saw Cowards are these shitty British fans who like to boo other fighters national anthems but dont have the bravery to step into the ring, Ive never seen this anywhere else but in Britain. I just want to dare these British hooligans (football is just the same) in the 2010 WC to come to MY country and start breaking MY cities like they did in Germany, I garantee our police arent tolerant damn wimps like they are over there.

Agreed, our country has had more than it's share of problems with dumbass hooligans but you're on very shaky ground if you're bigging up the South African police, we all know how tolerant they've been pal.
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Post by overhand_right »

Funny how all Tyson threads get dragged into these stupid immature name calling rants that have nothing to do with the original thread topic.

Someone lock this thread, pleeeease.
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Post by yiddo14 »

A South African having a general problem with everything English is'nt exactly new is it??

Some guys just can't let go of the past can they.... :roll:

The remark about Brits not having the bottle to fight made me chuckle...Sout Africa hardly noted for producing top level fighters are they!!!!!

Fact is this...Lewis achieved FAR more than Tyson and Cooney put together.And IMO would have beat them one after the other in their respective primes.

A better match up to discuss would be Cooney v Tyson maybe?
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Post by RazorKO »

Lenny Albert wrote:Razor, why do you keep mentioning English hooligans in this thread? How is it connected to the possible outcome of a Lewis v Cooney fight? Or to Ruddock's abilities as a fighter?

Would it be fair to say your opinion of Lewis is guided by your hate for the English?
My anti-hooligan posts are to the British hooligans and them only and it a shame that the real English fans are having their reptuation ruined by these scum of the earth people.

As I said, the fans put Ruddock off during the introductions on the night the fight he fought Lewis. Razor said to Larry Merchant that he lost because he couldnt adjust to this climate which I believe 100%, Ruddock was hit more frequently by an even more murderous puncher in Tyson.....but the crowd never crucified him. In Earls court on the other hand these so called fans jeered, booed, insulted you name it - But compare it to when Ruddock fought Tommy Morrison in a very pro Morrison crowd and you will get a big difference. The American crowd being so overwhemling Pro Morrison it wasnt even funny STILL had the respect to treat Ruddock well and applaud him after the fight.
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Post by The Great John L »

RazorKO wrote:...Ruddock was hit more frequently by an even more murderous puncher in Tyson.....
Its is possible that Lewis hit harder than Tyson.
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Post by yiddo14 »

Razor....Chris Eubank got FAR worse treatment from the baying mob in his own country than Ruddock got that night,yet he took it all in his stride...in fact,he thrived on it.I can't see how a booing,baying crowd can affect an experienced,top level fighter?
Look when Tszyu fought Chavez,he endured all kinds of hostility,yet it did'nt bother him.
You can't use a few boos from drunken idiots as an excuse for getting the utter shit beat out of you!!!!
Especially when it's a heavyweight title eliminator!

As for Lewis/Tyson,who hits harder....hard to judge.Looking at common foes,the knockout percentage is similar.
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