How Would Joe Louis Have Done In The 1960s or 1970s era

[keithmoonhangover]

I think the last time a guy weighing under 195 won a world championship fight at HW was over 60 years ago.

It used to be a regular occurence. It's pretty much gone from 3 times a year to never.

You could say the same the other way. Guys over 230lbs back then had a torrid time.

[gilgamesh]

I think the last time a guy weighing under 195 won a world championship fight at HW was over 60 years ago.

It used to be a regular occurence. It's pretty much gone from 3 times a year to never.

You could say the same the other way. Guys over 230lbs back then had a torrid time.

Yeah it is strange how it took fighters so long to be able to carry significant size effectively.

[Ambling Alp II]

They still don't. Lewis and for a shorter period of time Bowe were great fighters. That's it.

[Ambling Alp II]

Keep hearing that Louis only beat 17 opponents over the magical 200-pound mark. guess what? Usyk has beaten a grand total of 7.

That was more to highlight that there weren't many big HW's in that era, a lot of Louis' opponents wouldn't be HWs today. Of course Usyk has only had 7 fights at HW but even at CW he was still bigger than a lot of Louis opponents. Louis would've had success no doubt but he'd find it harder against the bigger guys of the 60s/70s.

Well yes, Louis would have had more trouble in the 1960s and 1970s. The division was never better than the early-mid 1970s, and was pretty good in the 1960s. But it really isn't not about the weight. Louis himself was taller than Liston and Frazier and not much shorter than Foreman and Ali. He beat opponents bigger than those guys.
Ali, Frazier, Liston, and Foreman were just really good. That's all we need to say.

[Controversial]

Keep hearing that Louis only beat 17 opponents over the magical 200-pound mark. guess what? Usyk has beaten a grand total of 7.

That was more to highlight that there weren't many big HW's in that era, a lot of Louis' opponents wouldn't be HWs today. Of course Usyk has only had 7 fights at HW but even at CW he was still bigger than a lot of Louis opponents. Louis would've had success no doubt but he'd find it harder against the bigger guys of the 60s/70s.

But you admitted size isn't everything.

Reading want you want to read again

[Controversial]

Keep hearing that Louis only beat 17 opponents over the magical 200-pound mark. guess what? Usyk has beaten a grand total of 7.

That was more to highlight that there weren't many big HW's in that era, a lot of Louis' opponents wouldn't be HWs today. Of course Usyk has only had 7 fights at HW but even at CW he was still bigger than a lot of Louis opponents. Louis would've had success no doubt but he'd find it harder against the bigger guys of the 60s/70s.

Well yes, Louis would have had more trouble in the 1960s and 1970s.

Glad we agree

[keithmoonhangover]

That was more to highlight that there weren't many big HW's in that era, a lot of Louis' opponents wouldn't be HWs today. Of course Usyk has only had 7 fights at HW but even at CW he was still bigger than a lot of Louis opponents. Louis would've had success no doubt but he'd find it harder against the bigger guys of the 60s/70s.

But you admitted size isn't everything.

Reading want you want to read again

It's a free world.

[Ezzard]

I think the last time a guy weighing under 195 won a world championship fight at HW was over 60 years ago.

It used to be a regular occurence. It's pretty much gone from 3 times a year to never.

You could say the same the other way. Guys over 230lbs back then had a torrid time.

But now they don't. And these big guys dominate. And have done for so long it's not worth debating. Even if a 190 pound guy wins tomorrow you'd need 60 years of these little fellas for parity.

[keithmoonhangover]

I think the last time a guy weighing under 195 won a world championship fight at HW was over 60 years ago.

It used to be a regular occurence. It's pretty much gone from 3 times a year to never.

You could say the same the other way. Guys over 230lbs back then had a torrid time.

But now they don't. And these big guys dominate. And have done for so long it's not worth debating. Even if a 190 pound guy wins tomorrow you'd need 60 years of these little fellas for parity.

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

[Controversial]

You could say the same the other way. Guys over 230lbs back then had a torrid time.

But now they don't. And these big guys dominate. And have done for so long it's not worth debating. Even if a 190 pound guy wins tomorrow you'd need 60 years of these little fellas for parity.

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

When we say Usyk is small it's more in comparison to the huge HWs but he is a lot bigger than guys of the 40/50s. Usyk is 6'3" and 225 which is a good size for a HW. When he was a CW he was likely well over 200 on fight night anyway, they just manipulate their weight to get under 200. Jai Opetaia was 212 on fight night against Jack Massey (who was 208) for his CW defence. The CW division just allows the guys in-between LHW and HW to be competitive with each other instead of fighting guys way too big for them but I imagine most, if not all, are well over 200 on the night of the fight.

[keithmoonhangover]

But now they don't. And these big guys dominate. And have done for so long it's not worth debating. Even if a 190 pound guy wins tomorrow you'd need 60 years of these little fellas for parity.

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

When we say Usyk is small it's more in comparison to the huge HWs but he is a lot bigger than guys of the 40/50s. Usyk is 6'3" and 225 which is a good size for a HW. When he was a CW he was likely well over 200 on fight night anyway, they just manipulate their weight to get under 200. Jai Opetaia was 212 on fight night against Jack Massey (who was 208) for his CW defence. The CW division just allows the guys in-between LHW and HW to be competitive with each other instead of fighting guys way too big for them but I imagine most, if not all, are well over 200 on the night of the fight.

The best heavyweight in the world today just beat a guy who outweighed him by 51 lbs and was six inches taller.

Put Louis in a time machine and he's an inch and a half smaller that Usyk and is outweighed by 23ibs. There is no way on the planet that Louis-Usyk is a complete mismatch based on size.

Go on, tell me you disagree.

[Controversial]

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

When we say Usyk is small it's more in comparison to the huge HWs but he is a lot bigger than guys of the 40/50s. Usyk is 6'3" and 225 which is a good size for a HW. When he was a CW he was likely well over 200 on fight night anyway, they just manipulate their weight to get under 200. Jai Opetaia was 212 on fight night against Jack Massey (who was 208) for his CW defence. The CW division just allows the guys in-between LHW and HW to be competitive with each other instead of fighting guys way too big for them but I imagine most, if not all, are well over 200 on the night of the fight.

The best heavyweight in the world today just beat a guy who outweighed him by 51 lbs and was six inches taller.

Put Louis in a time machine and he's an inch and a half smaller that Usyk and is outweighed by 23ibs. There is no way on the planet that Louis-Usyk is a complete mismatch based on size.

Go on, tell me you disagree.

I never said it was. Again if you read my posts properly I’ve said Louis was have success but he benefited from fighting predominantly smaller guys, guys who would not be HWs today.

[keithmoonhangover]

When we say Usyk is small it's more in comparison to the huge HWs but he is a lot bigger than guys of the 40/50s. Usyk is 6'3" and 225 which is a good size for a HW. When he was a CW he was likely well over 200 on fight night anyway, they just manipulate their weight to get under 200. Jai Opetaia was 212 on fight night against Jack Massey (who was 208) for his CW defence. The CW division just allows the guys in-between LHW and HW to be competitive with each other instead of fighting guys way too big for them but I imagine most, if not all, are well over 200 on the night of the fight.

The best heavyweight in the world today just beat a guy who outweighed him by 51 lbs and was six inches taller.

Put Louis in a time machine and he's an inch and a half smaller that Usyk and is outweighed by 23ibs. There is no way on the planet that Louis-Usyk is a complete mismatch based on size.

Go on, tell me you disagree.

I never said it was. Again if you read my posts properly I’ve said Louis was have success but he benefited from fighting predominantly smaller guys, guys who would not be HWs today.

So you're not saying Louis-Usyk is a mismatch?

[Controversial]

The best heavyweight in the world today just beat a guy who outweighed him by 51 lbs and was six inches taller.

Put Louis in a time machine and he's an inch and a half smaller that Usyk and is outweighed by 23ibs. There is no way on the planet that Louis-Usyk is a complete mismatch based on size.

Go on, tell me you disagree.

I never said it was. Again if you read my posts properly I’ve said Louis was have success but he benefited from fighting predominantly smaller guys, guys who would not be HWs today.

So you're not saying Louis-Usyk is a mismatch?

When did I say that? My question was about Bivol that no one could answer.

[keithmoonhangover]

I never said it was. Again if you read my posts properly I’ve said Louis was have success but he benefited from fighting predominantly smaller guys, guys who would not be HWs today.

So you're not saying Louis-Usyk is a mismatch?

When did I say that? My question was about Bivol that no one could answer.

Allow me to reword. Would Louis-Usyk be a mismatch?

[Controversial]

So you're not saying Louis-Usyk is a mismatch?

When did I say that? My question was about Bivol that no one could answer.

Allow me to reword. Would Louis-Usyk be a mismatch?

No it wouldn’t. Do you think the CW division should exist, if so why or why not?

[keithmoonhangover]

When did I say that? My question was about Bivol that no one could answer.

Allow me to reword. Would Louis-Usyk be a mismatch?

No it wouldn’t. Do you think the CW division should exist, if so why or why not?

So after all of that, you're admitting that Joe Louis could hang with the very best heavyweight in the world right now. He's not too small at all. Thanks for clearing that up.

I like the original eight divisions, but I don't mind cruiserweight. History proves that the best cruisers (Holyfield, Haye, Usyk) all moved up and had success against bigger men.

[Controversial]

Allow me to reword. Would Louis-Usyk be a mismatch?

No it wouldn’t. Do you think the CW division should exist, if so why or why not?

So after all of that, you're admitting that Joe Louis could hang with the very best heavyweight in the world right now. He's not too small at all. Thanks for clearing that up.

I like the original eight divisions, but I don't mind cruiserweight. History proves that the best cruisers (Holyfield, Haye, Usyk) all moved up and had success against bigger men.

Are you mixing me up with someone else as I never said he couldn’t

I said he’d find it harder as he wouldn’t be fighting LHWs. As I said before Bivol on fight night is 190-195lbs so he would’ve been a HW in that era but he isn’t now and chances are he wouldn’t try as he’d be too small. Just like most of Louis opponents. Three CWs in over 40 years have had success at HW and none of them were small to start with.

[keithmoonhangover]

No it wouldn’t. Do you think the CW division should exist, if so why or why not?

So after all of that, you're admitting that Joe Louis could hang with the very best heavyweight in the world right now. He's not too small at all. Thanks for clearing that up.

I like the original eight divisions, but I don't mind cruiserweight. History proves that the best cruisers (Holyfield, Haye, Usyk) all moved up and had success against bigger men.

Are you mixing me up with someone else as I never said he couldn’t

I said he’d find it harder as he wouldn’t be fighting LHWs. As I said before Bivol on fight night is 190-195lbs so he would’ve been a HW in that era but he isn’t now and chances are he wouldn’t try as he’d be too small. Just like most of Louis opponents. Three CWs in over 40 years have had success at HW and none of them were small to start with.

Usyk wasn't a heavyweight until seven fights ago and he could have stayed at cruiser, but he moved up for the money and the glory. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Joe Louis wouldn't do the same. The guy was a wrecking ball puncher, who destroyed people in the ams and the pros.

Three CWs in 40 years? Joe Louis is one of the top two heavyweights in the history of the sport. He is also someone that you admit wouldn't be mismatched against one of those three cruiserweights. If he can hang with Usyk, one of the best p4p boxers of his era, he could live with a chinny Joshua and a fat Fury. Usyk proved their extra size didn't matter.

It doesn't matter that most of Louis' wins were against smaller guys, because most of Usyk's wins were too. Great is great. It's a bit like Hearns coming up from 147 and beating HOF Virgil Hill. Size didn't matter then, because Hearns was an all time great. Ditto Leonard vs Lalonde or Duran vs Barkley or Pac vs Hatton or Mayweather vs DLH or RJJ vs Ruiz. Great fighters and I'm talking all time great fighters can handle guys who are bigger than them.

[Controversial]

So after all of that, you're admitting that Joe Louis could hang with the very best heavyweight in the world right now. He's not too small at all. Thanks for clearing that up.

I like the original eight divisions, but I don't mind cruiserweight. History proves that the best cruisers (Holyfield, Haye, Usyk) all moved up and had success against bigger men.

Are you mixing me up with someone else as I never said he couldn’t

I said he’d find it harder as he wouldn’t be fighting LHWs. As I said before Bivol on fight night is 190-195lbs so he would’ve been a HW in that era but he isn’t now and chances are he wouldn’t try as he’d be too small. Just like most of Louis opponents. Three CWs in over 40 years have had success at HW and none of them were small to start with.

Usyk wasn't a heavyweight until seven fights ago and he could have stayed at cruiser, but he moved up for the money and the glory. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Joe Louis wouldn't do the same. The guy was a wrecking ball puncher, who destroyed people in the ams and the pros.

Three CWs in 40 years? Joe Louis is one of the top two heavyweights in the history of the sport. He is also someone that you admit wouldn't be mismatched against one of those three cruiserweights. If he can hang with Usyk, one of the best p4p boxers of his era, he could live with a chinny Joshua and a fat Fury. Usyk proved their extra size didn't matter.

It doesn't matter that most of Louis' wins were against smaller guys, because most of Usyk's wins were too. Great is great. It's a bit like Hearns coming up from 147 and beating HOF Virgil Hill. Size didn't matter then, because Hearns was an all time great. Ditto Leonard vs Lalonde or Duran vs Barkley or Pac vs Hatton or Mayweather vs DLH or RJJ vs Ruiz. Great fighters and I'm talking all time great fighters can handle guys who are bigger than them.

Usyk has always been a HW in all but name, he was over 200 for all his CW fights on fight night and the same likely for his opponents. In fact he was fighting at HW in his first few pro fights.

You say size doesn't matter, that's a ridiculous statement. There are always exceptions to every rule but invariably they are more rare than common. There are plenty of ATG fighters that never won titles at higher divisions, arguably the greatest fighter in history SRR was stopped for the only time in his career when he tried his luck at LHW. Normally the ones that do win take calculated risks or have some sort of advantage. Like SRL making Lalonde weigh in at 168 but putting his LHW belt on the line. Or RJJ fighting the weakest HW in terms of ability instead of challenging the better ones. Hearns had the frame to bulk up, he was almost 6'2" which is why he went up to CW. And let's not talk about the light or super divisions where fighters can add or drop a few pounds and call themselves a multi weight champion, we all know that's nonsense. A true great wins titles in the original 8 divisions.

[Ambling Alp II]

Did the 193-pound Jones win or lose?

But again, we have to ignore what happened in real life. When the fight actually happens, and the smaller guy wins, then it suddenly it doesn't count because the bigger guy wasn't "special".

Again, lets stop talking about the frikkin weight and talk about how good (or not so good) people are.
Jjoe Louis would not have dominated the 1960s or 1970s. He probably would have won some and lost some against the very best.
No fighter in recent times (regardless of weight) would have been close to the top.

[Expug]

In some of these Joe Louis threads, there’s an argument that he is much smaller compared to some of the heavyweights of the 60s-70s than he really was. Liston, shavers , Cleveland Williams , and even Ali when he was young were all in the 200-215 pounds range. Holmes won the title at under 210

[keithmoonhangover]

In some of these Joe Louis threads, there’s an argument that he is much smaller compared to some of the heavyweights of the 60s-70s than he really was. Liston, shavers , Cleveland Williams , and even Ali when he was young were all in the 200-215 pounds range. Holmes won the title at under 210

None of that matters to any of these people. One minute Usyk's small, then the next minute he's not.

[keithmoonhangover]

Are you mixing me up with someone else as I never said he couldn’t

I said he’d find it harder as he wouldn’t be fighting LHWs. As I said before Bivol on fight night is 190-195lbs so he would’ve been a HW in that era but he isn’t now and chances are he wouldn’t try as he’d be too small. Just like most of Louis opponents. Three CWs in over 40 years have had success at HW and none of them were small to start with.

Usyk wasn't a heavyweight until seven fights ago and he could have stayed at cruiser, but he moved up for the money and the glory. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Joe Louis wouldn't do the same. The guy was a wrecking ball puncher, who destroyed people in the ams and the pros.

Three CWs in 40 years? Joe Louis is one of the top two heavyweights in the history of the sport. He is also someone that you admit wouldn't be mismatched against one of those three cruiserweights. If he can hang with Usyk, one of the best p4p boxers of his era, he could live with a chinny Joshua and a fat Fury. Usyk proved their extra size didn't matter.

It doesn't matter that most of Louis' wins were against smaller guys, because most of Usyk's wins were too. Great is great. It's a bit like Hearns coming up from 147 and beating HOF Virgil Hill. Size didn't matter then, because Hearns was an all time great. Ditto Leonard vs Lalonde or Duran vs Barkley or Pac vs Hatton or Mayweather vs DLH or RJJ vs Ruiz. Great fighters and I'm talking all time great fighters can handle guys who are bigger than them.

Usyk has always been a HW in all but name, he was over 200 for all his CW fights on fight night and the same likely for his opponents. In fact he was fighting at HW in his first few pro fights.

You say size doesn't matter, that's a ridiculous statement. There are always exceptions to every rule but invariably they are more rare than common. There are plenty of ATG fighters that never won titles at higher divisions, arguably the greatest fighter in history SRR was stopped for the only time in his career when he tried his luck at LHW. Normally the ones that do win take calculated risks or have some sort of advantage. Like SRL making Lalonde weigh in at 168 but putting his LHW belt on the line. Or RJJ fighting the weakest HW in terms of ability instead of challenging the better ones. Hearns had the frame to bulk up, he was almost 6'2" which is why he went up to CW. And let's not talk about the light or super divisions where fighters can add or drop a few pounds and call themselves a multi weight champion, we all know that's nonsense. A true great wins titles in the original 8 divisions.

I'm very confused. When Usyk is 200 lbs, he's a heavyweight, even though he's a cruiserweight. When Louis is 200lbs, he's a light heavyweight.

[Controversial]

Usyk wasn't a heavyweight until seven fights ago and he could have stayed at cruiser, but he moved up for the money and the glory. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Joe Louis wouldn't do the same. The guy was a wrecking ball puncher, who destroyed people in the ams and the pros.

Three CWs in 40 years? Joe Louis is one of the top two heavyweights in the history of the sport. He is also someone that you admit wouldn't be mismatched against one of those three cruiserweights. If he can hang with Usyk, one of the best p4p boxers of his era, he could live with a chinny Joshua and a fat Fury. Usyk proved their extra size didn't matter.

It doesn't matter that most of Louis' wins were against smaller guys, because most of Usyk's wins were too. Great is great. It's a bit like Hearns coming up from 147 and beating HOF Virgil Hill. Size didn't matter then, because Hearns was an all time great. Ditto Leonard vs Lalonde or Duran vs Barkley or Pac vs Hatton or Mayweather vs DLH or RJJ vs Ruiz. Great fighters and I'm talking all time great fighters can handle guys who are bigger than them.

Usyk has always been a HW in all but name, he was over 200 for all his CW fights on fight night and the same likely for his opponents. In fact he was fighting at HW in his first few pro fights.

You say size doesn't matter, that's a ridiculous statement. There are always exceptions to every rule but invariably they are more rare than common. There are plenty of ATG fighters that never won titles at higher divisions, arguably the greatest fighter in history SRR was stopped for the only time in his career when he tried his luck at LHW. Normally the ones that do win take calculated risks or have some sort of advantage. Like SRL making Lalonde weigh in at 168 but putting his LHW belt on the line. Or RJJ fighting the weakest HW in terms of ability instead of challenging the better ones. Hearns had the frame to bulk up, he was almost 6'2" which is why he went up to CW. And let's not talk about the light or super divisions where fighters can add or drop a few pounds and call themselves a multi weight champion, we all know that's nonsense. A true great wins titles in the original 8 divisions.

I'm very confused. When Usyk is 200 lbs, he's a heavyweight, even though he's a cruiserweight. When Louis is 200lbs, he's a light heavyweight.

I never said Louis was a LHW, you don’t read things properly or read what you want to read. It’s not difficult, Usyk is the weight of a HW when he walks in the ring for his CW fights, like lots of fighters they cut weight and then rehydrate. Bivol is a LHW but walks into the ring at 190-195, the same size as a lot of the HWs Louis fought. Back in the day they had same day weigh ins and no weight cut needed.