How Would Joe Louis Have Done In The 1960s or 1970s era

[keithmoonhangover]

Usyk has always been a HW in all but name, he was over 200 for all his CW fights on fight night and the same likely for his opponents. In fact he was fighting at HW in his first few pro fights.

You say size doesn't matter, that's a ridiculous statement. There are always exceptions to every rule but invariably they are more rare than common. There are plenty of ATG fighters that never won titles at higher divisions, arguably the greatest fighter in history SRR was stopped for the only time in his career when he tried his luck at LHW. Normally the ones that do win take calculated risks or have some sort of advantage. Like SRL making Lalonde weigh in at 168 but putting his LHW belt on the line. Or RJJ fighting the weakest HW in terms of ability instead of challenging the better ones. Hearns had the frame to bulk up, he was almost 6'2" which is why he went up to CW. And let's not talk about the light or super divisions where fighters can add or drop a few pounds and call themselves a multi weight champion, we all know that's nonsense. A true great wins titles in the original 8 divisions.

I'm very confused. When Usyk is 200 lbs, he's a heavyweight, even though he's a cruiserweight. When Louis is 200lbs, he's a light heavyweight.

I never said Louis was a LHW, you don’t read things properly or read what you want to read. It’s not difficult, Usyk is the weight of a HW when he walks in the ring for his CW fights, like lots of fighters they cut weight and then rehydrate. Bivol is a LHW but walks into the ring at 190-195, the same size as a lot of the HWs Louis fought. Back in the day they had same day weigh ins and no weight cut needed.

We disagree on a few things, but thankfully we agree that Louis would be competitive against the best in the world right now.

[Ezzard]

You could say the same the other way. Guys over 230lbs back then had a torrid time.

But now they don't. And these big guys dominate. And have done for so long it's not worth debating. Even if a 190 pound guy wins tomorrow you'd need 60 years of these little fellas for parity.

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

[keithmoonhangover]

But now they don't. And these big guys dominate. And have done for so long it's not worth debating. Even if a 190 pound guy wins tomorrow you'd need 60 years of these little fellas for parity.

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

No. Just saying that If he had access to PEDs, he'd probably increase in weight. Being the smaller man can be an advantage in terms of speed. Joe was that good, he wouldn't need to change a lot to beat virtually any heavyweight ever. If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

[Benny The Kid]

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

No. Just saying that If he had access to PEDs, he'd probably increase in weight. Being the smaller man can be an advantage in terms of speed. Joe was that good, he wouldn't need to change a lot to beat virtually any heavyweight ever. If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

I agree with this completely. He has no issues in simulation competing with 70's & 80's fighter's.
Raw power translates well. If he had a year to train for a Frazier fight in 1970 Louis body would look much different.
I don't think he would change alot in approach. But cruiserweight Usyk to heavyweight his body changed alot

The two biggest factors still exist chin & power.
Louis steamrolled over Quarry in simulation,norton gave him a better fight. Lyle struggles alot. Shavers dropped him a few time but lost all 3 matches.
Louis vs Frazier was pretty even.
And just the fact that Louis was even with Frazier then he was capable of beating Ali, although Ali would win the majority of half a dozen bouts.

The simulation seems pretty accurate to me. He's about even with Frazier. Anyone Frazier can beat Louis would have a great chance at also..

Dempsey also has the spades in chin & power but he was a much more "raw" product than Joe Louis. He just doesn't quite translate as effectively as Louis does.

Joe louis was likely the first incarnation of a modern looking heavyweight.

[margaret thatcher]

Keep hearing that Louis only beat 17 opponents over the magical 200-pound mark. guess what? Usyk has beaten a grand total of 7.

you know james toney has beaten more hw opponents than usyk has, do you rate toney above usyk at heavyweight like you do at cruiser?

simple question then

whose cruiser career ranks higher, usyk's or toney?

straight up answer bruh

I rank Toney a little higher. Don't know how much clearer I can be.

[Ezzard]

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

No. Just saying that If he had access to PEDs, he'd probably increase in weight. Being the smaller man can be an advantage in terms of speed. Joe was that good, he wouldn't need to change a lot to beat virtually any heavyweight ever. If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Why would he increase in weight if it's not an advantage?

[Ezzard]

People adapt to their surroundings. Louis did what he needed to do then. There's no reason why he couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology.

You're saying big guys dominate and have done for a long time, but the guy at the top of the division is smaller than Fury, Joshua, Wilder, Wlad, Vitali, Lewis and Bowe. Right now, the big men aren't dominating, the former cruiserweight is.

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Nobody thinks size automatically means you win. But it makes the smaller guy's advantages less of an advantage and can nullify them altogether.

The smaller guy is a giant in Joe's era.

[keithmoonhangover]

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

No. Just saying that If he had access to PEDs, he'd probably increase in weight. Being the smaller man can be an advantage in terms of speed. Joe was that good, he wouldn't need to change a lot to beat virtually any heavyweight ever. If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Why would he increase in weight if it's not an advantage?

I'm not saying it would be an advantage. That would be down to the induvial boxer. Some guys train for speed and slim down when fighting a much bigger man.

[keithmoonhangover]

Usyk is a giant in a sub 195 world.

"There's no reason why he [Joe Louis] couldn't go up from 200 to 220 using todays technology."

Yes he could. But you are accepting that size is an advantage.

If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Nobody thinks size automatically means you win. But it makes the smaller guy's advantages less of an advantage and can nullify them altogether.

The smaller guy is a giant in Joe's era.

Some posters do think that.

Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Joe was.

[Seamus]

Which means he's bigger than George Foreman who was considered a monster.

[keithmoonhangover]

Which means he's bigger than George Foreman who was considered a monster.

[Controversial]

If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Nobody thinks size automatically means you win. But it makes the smaller guy's advantages less of an advantage and can nullify them altogether.

The smaller guy is a giant in Joe's era.

Some posters do think that.

Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Joe was.

Size isn’t as basic as equating it to inches. Overall size, ability to pack on good weight, the ability to carry your speed/power etc all comes into it. Tommy Hearns is taller than plenty of HWs but his frame was obviously smaller, no one would say he beats Mike Tyson because Tyson is shorter. Louis would likely be a CW today, yes he could make HW and have success but he would be facing guys physically bigger and stronger than him. Chris Billam Smith is a good example, he’s 6’3” and over 200 on fight night, so he’s a HW in reality but fighting under the guise of a CW. He’s ruled out a move to HW. I’m obviously not comparing Louis to CBS in terms of ability but in terms of size, if anything CBS is the bigger man. I’m sure CBS could pack on 20-30lbs if he wanted but then he would likely be slower and tire quicker so he sticks with CW where he has the best of both worlds. Plenty of big CWs don’t make the leap to HW and the reason is often as
they know they would struggle against the best big HWs.

[keithmoonhangover]

Nobody thinks size automatically means you win. But it makes the smaller guy's advantages less of an advantage and can nullify them altogether.

The smaller guy is a giant in Joe's era.

Some posters do think that.

Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Joe was.

Size isn’t as basic as equating it to inches. Overall size, ability to pack on good weight, the ability to carry your speed/power etc all comes into it. Tommy Hearns is taller than plenty of HWs but his frame was obviously smaller, no one would say he beats Mike Tyson because Tyson is shorter. Louis would likely be a CW today, yes he could make HW and have success but he would be facing guys physically bigger and stronger than him. Chris Billam Smith is a good example, he’s 6’3” and over 200 on fight night, so he’s a HW in reality but fighting under the guise of a CW. He’s ruled out a move to HW. I’m obviously not comparing Louis to CBS in terms of ability but in terms of size, if anything CBS is the bigger man. I’m sure CBS could pack on 20-30lbs if he wanted but then he would likely be slower and tire quicker so he sticks with CW where he has the best of both worlds. Plenty of big CWs don’t make the leap to HW and the reason is often as
they know they would struggle against the best big HWs.

Louis didn't struggle against bigger guys.

[Seamus]

Ron Lyle would beat anyone on JL's resume. Norton, Shavers, Young and Quarry would have a good shot at it as well. Don't think it's even necessary to say what Ali, Foreman and Frazier would do.

[elmersalsa]

Ron Lyle would beat anyone on JL's resume. Norton, Shavers, Young and Quarry would have a good shot at it as well. Don't think it's even necessary to say what Ali, Foreman and Frazier would do.

You got that right.

[keithmoonhangover]

Ron Lyle would beat anyone on JL's resume. Norton, Shavers, Young and Quarry would have a good shot at it as well. Don't think it's even necessary to say what Ali, Foreman and Frazier would do.

No way in the world does Ron Lyle beat Ezzard Charles. No way.

[Seamus]

One good shot is all he needs. 37 yr old Walcott knocked him out with one punch.

[Benny The Kid]

Charles & Walcott are vastly underrated. They are certainly better than Lyle.

[keithmoonhangover]

Charles & Walcott are vastly underrated. They are certainly better than Lyle.

Dis.

[Ezzard]

No. Just saying that If he had access to PEDs, he'd probably increase in weight. Being the smaller man can be an advantage in terms of speed. Joe was that good, he wouldn't need to change a lot to beat virtually any heavyweight ever. If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Why would he increase in weight if it's not an advantage?

I'm not saying it would be an advantage. That would be down to the induvial boxer. Some guys train for speed and slim down when fighting a much bigger man.

So Louis stays at 195 and the fact that nobody 195 or under has won a world title fight in 60+ years is irrelevant?

Or he bulks up because size is an advantage. Your choice.

I understand there are times when this is not so but we are talking about this for the majority of cases.

[Ezzard]

If people think Fury is going to automatically beat one of the top two heavyweights of all time because he's bigger is nonsense. Especially when he just lost to a lot smaller guy.

Nobody thinks size automatically means you win. But it makes the smaller guy's advantages less of an advantage and can nullify them altogether.

The smaller guy is a giant in Joe's era.

Some posters do think that.

Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Joe was.

Well, there might be one or two. But most people do not believe that. You don't need to address that argument.

[keithmoonhangover]

Why would he increase in weight if it's not an advantage?

I'm not saying it would be an advantage. That would be down to the induvial boxer. Some guys train for speed and slim down when fighting a much bigger man.

So Louis stays at 195 and the fact that nobody 195 or under has won a world title fight in 60+ years is irrelevant?

Or he bulks up because size is an advantage. Your choice.

I understand there are times when this is not so but we are talking about this for the majority of cases.

Three things.....

1. Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Louis.
2. Joe weighed 200 or there abouts for most of his title reign, Usyk weighed 226 for the Fury fight. 26Ibs is not a huge weight advantage in the heavyweight division.
3. This is Joe Louis we're talking about. A consensus all time top 2 heavyweight.

[Ezzard]

I'm not saying it would be an advantage. That would be down to the induvial boxer. Some guys train for speed and slim down when fighting a much bigger man.

So Louis stays at 195 and the fact that nobody 195 or under has won a world title fight in 60+ years is irrelevant?

Or he bulks up because size is an advantage. Your choice.

I understand there are times when this is not so but we are talking about this for the majority of cases.

Three things.....

1. Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Louis.
2. Joe weighed 200 or there abouts for most of his title reign, Usyk weighed 226 for the Fury fight. 26Ibs is not a huge weight advantage in the heavyweight division.
3. This is Joe Louis we're talking about. A consensus all time top 2 heavyweight.

4. Does he put on weight or not?

[Ezzard]

Going back to the original question...

Louis v Ali
Louis v Foreman
Louis v Frazier
Louis v Norton
Louis v Young

I can see arguments that he wins all 5 or loses all 5.

[keithmoonhangover]

So Louis stays at 195 and the fact that nobody 195 or under has won a world title fight in 60+ years is irrelevant?

Or he bulks up because size is an advantage. Your choice.

I understand there are times when this is not so but we are talking about this for the majority of cases.

Three things.....

1. Usyk is only an inch and a half taller than Louis.
2. Joe weighed 200 or there abouts for most of his title reign, Usyk weighed 226 for the Fury fight. 26Ibs is not a huge weight advantage in the heavyweight division.
3. This is Joe Louis we're talking about. A consensus all time top 2 heavyweight.

4. Does he put on weight or not?

No.