Joe Frazier vs Deontay Wilder

[elmersalsa]

Why didn't Nicolay Valuev beat David Haye then? He had a hell of a physical advantage there.

Why is one of the smallest of all active Heavyweights the current Heavyweight Champion having 4 wins over these modern giants you go on about.

Physical size is an advantage, yes. It's not the one and only determining factor in who wins a fight. If it was, the biggest man would win 100% of the time, but that doesn't happen because size is merely 1 factor.

Size is a factor. That's why we got weight classes in boxing.

Joe Louis as great as he was, (I ranked him at #2 at heavyweight all-time and top 10 all-time pound per pound), would be too small for these guys today. The weight discrepancy is huge.

These giants are not that good by talent standards. But, are they better than the Primo Carneras, Buddy Baers and Abe Simons of the world? Yes

Do they hit harder than the Carneras, Simons and Baers of the world? Yes

Are they stronger? Yes

Do they got some talent? Yes. They became world champions at the heaviest of weight classes, right?

But, are they are as good as the heavyweights of the 20th Century since the great Sonny Liston? Not, at all.


The problem with Louis is that his chin is his worst liability. Guys that weighed in less than 170lbs like Billy Conn that can't splat a fly, rocked Louis.

Tony Galento, who really wasn't a real boxer, who carried ice blocks for a living, and was fat and had a height of 5'7" dropped him.

Max Schmeling, who I think that he never weighed in more than 195lbs, knocked him out.

Now imagine these giants who average 6'6" in height, and weigh in as much as 260lbs? That would be suicidal.

That's like Sugar Ray Leonard at welterweight fights at 147lbs against a cruiserweight like Marvin Camel. Leonard in skills were thousand years above Camel's. But, can Leonard take a shot being a welterweight from a cruiserweight? A man that's outweighing Leonard more than 45 pounds? Are you serious?

It's more than a weight and physical issue than a talent issue. You can have all the talent, the heart and determination in the world. If you're fighting someone that weighs in more than 50 pounds over you, forget about the talent and will. You are going to get crushed....Bad!

[gilgamesh]

Wilder only had like 10 to 20 pounds over Louis.

[Ambling Alp II]

Using logic is not going to convince him.

What he doesn't get is that he just think bigger is better. As long as the guy came after Sonny Liston for whatever bizarre reason. At a certain point, weight stops being advantage. At a later point it become a disadvantage. A guy that weighs only 175 probably is not going to be an NFL QB. But neither is a guy who weighs 275 either. There is such a thing as as ideal weight. But this is way over elmers head.

The bigger heavyweight does win almost 51% of the. time. Now we are supposed to be believe that even Fury punched harder than Joe Louis? WTF.
You can weigh a lot and not be able to punch hard. i.e. Tony Tubbs, Buster Mathis Sr. Mount Whittaker.

elmer calls Carnera is a stiff. Why? He actually beat Tommy Loughran. Would like to know of other heavyweights that weigh over 220 that beat a great fighter under 200. The guy under 200 almost always won in real life.
Carnera proved he could win over 15 rounds.

Why does Louis have primitive skills because he fought 80 years ago. As if new punches have been invented. Yet He ranks Joe Gans so highly because of his skills. Gans fought more 110 yeas ago.

Lastly how stupid is it to rate someone as the #2 hw of all time if you don't think he could beat these guys?

[gilgamesh]

All you gotta do to know that Louis has many skills that Wilder doesn't is watch them both fight.

Joe Louis has inside fighting skills that no fighter today has. He may be at a disadvantage with modern referees who wouldn't allow inside fighting as much more than he would Wilder's limited skill set.

Joe Louis is pretty amazing in Black and White. He'd be every bit as amazing in HD.

[elmersalsa]

Wilder only had like 10 to 20 pounds over Louis.

By looking at the videos, it seems that he weighed in more than that. I wouldn't fight that man even if you pay me $20 million dollars. He looks too big and scary.

[elmersalsa]

All you gotta do to know that Louis has many skills that Wilder doesn't is watch them both fight.

Joe Louis has inside fighting skills that no fighter today has. He may be at a disadvantage with modern referees who wouldn't allow inside fighting as much more than he would Wilder's limited skill set.

Joe Louis is pretty amazing in Black and White. He'd be every bit as amazing in HD.

And he would have been knocked out! Quick! In a hurry! Too small and no chin.

[gilgamesh]

It's just kinda funny that a big, strong man couldn't have possibly REALLY been big and strong until 1960 or onward.

Whatever though. That's your story, and you're sticking to it.

[elmersalsa]

It's just kinda funny that a big, strong man couldn't have possibly REALLY been big and strong until 1960 or onward.

Whatever though. That's your story, and you're sticking to it.

That's what I see on tapes. The great Sonny Liston was one of the first real big men that started it. He was very skilled for his size. He just had that bad rap against another great big man, Muhammad Ali.

[Ambling Alp II]

Looking at the videos Wilder looked like he weighed more? Well, he didn't.

Liston didn't weigh that much more than Louis.
Louis had fights in which he weighed more some of Wilders, and many where it was very close.
Louis was technically sound. Wilder was not at all.
Therefore, your theory makes no sense.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Best not to argue with folks who think the moon landing was a hoax. You wont convince them of anything

[Ambling Alp II]

He just says so many silly things its sometimes hard to ignore them. Sometimes I respond and sometimes I don't to his ridiculous comments. Sometimes someone else beats me to it and I don't bother responding. Not sure if I have ever come across another person in my entire life who simply will not even try to think.

[elmersalsa]

Best not to argue with folks who think the moon landing was a hoax. You wont convince them of anything

I believe that it was one of the greatest hoaxes of all-time. Your ego will fall down to the ground when you discover the truth.

[elmersalsa]

Looking at the videos Wilder looked like he weighed more? Well, he didn't.

Liston didn't weigh that much more than Louis.
Louis had fights in which he weighed more some of Wilders, and many where it was very close.
Louis was technically sound. Wilder was not at all.
Therefore, your theory makes no sense.

Deontay Wilder and the great Sonny Liston were not dropped by Two Ton Tony Galento of all people.

Galento wasn't even a real heavyweight or a professional boxer. He carried ice blocks for a living. This man was only 5'7" and 230lbs. And he dropped the great Joe Louis?

A shot by Wilder or Liston and Louis got to go! He is not getting up.

[keithmoonhangover]

Why didn't Nicolay Valuev beat David Haye then? He had a hell of a physical advantage there.

Why is one of the smallest of all active Heavyweights the current Heavyweight Champion having 4 wins over these modern giants you go on about.

Physical size is an advantage, yes. It's not the one and only determining factor in who wins a fight. If it was, the biggest man would win 100% of the time, but that doesn't happen because size is merely 1 factor.

Size is a factor. That's why we got weight classes in boxing.

Joe Louis as great as he was, (I ranked him at #2 at heavyweight all-time and top 10 all-time pound per pound), would be too small for these guys today.

So Louis is too small, but Frazier isn't? You know Frazier was smaller than Louis, right?

[elmersalsa]

Why didn't Nicolay Valuev beat David Haye then? He had a hell of a physical advantage there.

Why is one of the smallest of all active Heavyweights the current Heavyweight Champion having 4 wins over these modern giants you go on about.

Physical size is an advantage, yes. It's not the one and only determining factor in who wins a fight. If it was, the biggest man would win 100% of the time, but that doesn't happen because size is merely 1 factor.

Size is a factor. That's why we got weight classes in boxing.

Joe Louis as great as he was, (I ranked him at #2 at heavyweight all-time and top 10 all-time pound per pound), would be too small for these guys today.

So Louis is too small, but Frazier isn't? You know Frazier was smaller than Louis, right?

At least Smokin' Joe was stronger than the great Joe Louis. He could take a shot much better than the Brown Bomber. He had much better chin.

It had to take the great George Foreman, a big heavyweight with tremendous power to knocked him out.

[elmersalsa]

Size is a factor. That's why we got weight classes in boxing.

Joe Louis as great as he was, (I ranked him at #2 at heavyweight all-time and top 10 all-time pound per pound), would be too small for these guys today.

So Louis is too small, but Frazier isn't? You know Frazier was smaller than Louis, right?

At least Smokin' Joe was stronger than the great Joe Louis. He could take a shot much better than the Brown Bomber. He had much better chin.

It had to take the great George Foreman, a big heavyweight with tremendous power to knocked him out.

Also, I can't picture the great Smokin' Joe Frazier being rocked by a 168lbs Billy Conn or a 5'7", 230lbs ice block career Two Ton Tony Galento. Max Schmeling could hit Smokin' Joe's chin all night, and Smokin' Joe would be still standing.

[keithmoonhangover]

Size is a factor. That's why we got weight classes in boxing.

Joe Louis as great as he was, (I ranked him at #2 at heavyweight all-time and top 10 all-time pound per pound), would be too small for these guys today.

So Louis is too small, but Frazier isn't? You know Frazier was smaller than Louis, right?

At least Smokin' Joe was stronger than the great Joe Louis. He could take a shot much better than the Brown Bomber. He had much better chin.

It had to take the great George Foreman, a big heavyweight with tremendous power to knocked him out.

Why elmer, it's not like you to deflect! You say Louis is too small, but Frazier not, even though he was smaller. That's your point?

[Ambling Alp II]

What about Mike Bruce? Would he have laid Louis out?

[gilgamesh]

Joe Louis and Joe Frazier were knocked down the same amount of times even though Joe Louis had 32 more fights.

So Louis wasn't as tough or as strong as Frazier even though they're roughly the same size, and Louis was knocked down much less frequently.

Rock solid logic on this one elmer.

Also Joe Louis was knocked down, and then went on to win by knockout quite a few times. Joe Frazier never managed to win by knockout in a fight he was knocked down in.

[elmersalsa]

So Louis is too small, but Frazier isn't? You know Frazier was smaller than Louis, right?

At least Smokin' Joe was stronger than the great Joe Louis. He could take a shot much better than the Brown Bomber. He had much better chin.

It had to take the great George Foreman, a big heavyweight with tremendous power to knocked him out.

Why elmer, it's not like you to deflect! You say Louis is too small, but Frazier not, even though he was smaller. That's your point?

Smokin' Joe weighed in heavier than Joe Louis whole career. And he had better chin to back it up. He is not getting rocked by a 168lbs Billy Conn.

Max Schmeling is not knocking out Joe Frazier.

Two Ton Tony Galento ain't dropping Frazier on the floor by any means.

It took a 6'3" 220lbs fighter like Big George Foreman to drop Frazier 8 times. Nobody else did it to him like that.

Big George is not Two Ton Tony.

[gilgamesh]

At least Smokin' Joe was stronger than the great Joe Louis. He could take a shot much better than the Brown Bomber. He had much better chin.

It had to take the great George Foreman, a big heavyweight with tremendous power to knocked him out.

Why elmer, it's not like you to deflect! You say Louis is too small, but Frazier not, even though he was smaller. That's your point?

Smokin' Joe weighed in heavier than Joe Louis whole career. And he had better chin to back it up. He is not getting rocked by a 168lbs Billy Conn.

Max Schmeling is not knocking out Joe Frazier.

Two Ton Tony Galento ain't dropping Frazier on the floor by any means.

It took a 6'3" 220lbs fighter like Big George Foreman to drop Frazier 8 times. Nobody else did it to him like that.

Big George is not Two Ton Tony.

Wilder getting dropped by a fat guy don't count though? A fat guy knocking you down is only embarrassing specifically when it's Tony Galento?

Harold Sconiers has 27 losses in 47 fights

Tony Galento has 26 losses in 110 fights, and he was knocked out 7 less times than Harold Sconiers who managed to knock down Wilder.

[elmersalsa]

Joe Louis and Joe Frazier were knocked down the same amount of times even though Joe Louis had 32 more fights.

So Louis wasn't as tough or as strong as Frazier even though they're roughly the same size, and Louis was knocked down much less frequently.

Rock solid logic on this one elmer.

Also Joe Louis was knocked down, and then went on to win by knockout quite a few times. Joe Frazier never managed to win by knockout in a fight he was knocked down in.

Say what?

Smokin' Joe Frazier was only dropped to the canvas by two men: Oscar Bonavena and George Foreman. Who else dropped Smokin' Joe? Not Two Ton Tony Galento.

Louis was dropped by Two Ton Tony Galento. A guy that was not even a professional boxer for crying out loud. He was short fat guy who carried ice blocks for a living. I can't picture Frazier being dropped by a fighter like that. Do you?

Louis was rocked by 168lbs Billy Conn. Conn almost knocked him out!

Louis was knocked out by Max Schmeling. Schmeling could hit Smokin' Joe's face all he wants. He is not knocking out Frazier.

Louis was thrown out of the ring by Buddy Baer.

Louis was dropped by Jersey Joe Walcott twice.

Rocky Marciano almost put him out of the ring.

Light-hitting Jimmy Braddock of all people, dropped Joe Louis?


And Louis and Frazier's chin should be the same?

[elmersalsa]

Why elmer, it's not like you to deflect! You say Louis is too small, but Frazier not, even though he was smaller. That's your point?

Smokin' Joe weighed in heavier than Joe Louis whole career. And he had better chin to back it up. He is not getting rocked by a 168lbs Billy Conn.

Max Schmeling is not knocking out Joe Frazier.

Two Ton Tony Galento ain't dropping Frazier on the floor by any means.

It took a 6'3" 220lbs fighter like Big George Foreman to drop Frazier 8 times. Nobody else did it to him like that.

Big George is not Two Ton Tony.

Wilder getting dropped by a fat guy don't count though? A fat guy knocking you down is only embarrassing specifically when it's Tony Galento?

Harold Sconiers has 27 losses in 47 fights

Tony Galento has 26 losses in 110 fights, and he was knocked out 7 less times than Harold Sconiers who managed to knock down Wilder.

I bet you that Harold Sconniers weighed in much more than Two Ton Tony Galento. I bet you that he is way taller than the fat Tony Galento, too.

Deontay Wilder sends that fat bastard Galento out of the ring. He doesn't belong in the ring with Wilder.

[gilgamesh]

Joe Louis and Joe Frazier were knocked down the same amount of times even though Joe Louis had 32 more fights.

So Louis wasn't as tough or as strong as Frazier even though they're roughly the same size, and Louis was knocked down much less frequently.

Rock solid logic on this one elmer.

Also Joe Louis was knocked down, and then went on to win by knockout quite a few times. Joe Frazier never managed to win by knockout in a fight he was knocked down in.

Say what?

Smokin' Joe Frazier was only dropped to the canvas by two men: Oscar Bonavena and George Foreman. Who else dropped Smokin' Joe? Not Two Ton Tony Galento.

Louis was dropped by Two Ton Tony Galento. A guy that was not even a professional boxer for crying out loud. He was short fat guy who carried ice blocks for a living. I can't picture Frazier being dropped by a fighter like that. Do you?

Louis was rocked by 168lbs Billy Conn. Conn almost knocked him out!

Louis was knocked out by Max Schmeling. Schmeling could hit Smokin' Joe's face all he wants. He is not knocking out Frazier.

Louis was thrown out of the ring by Buddy Baer.

Louis was dropped by Jersey Joe Walcott twice.

Rocky Marciano almost put him out of the ring.

Light-hitting Jimmy Braddock of all people, dropped Joe Louis?


And Louis and Frazier's chin should be the same?

How was Tony Galento not a Professional Fighter when he had 110 Professional fights?

All of those guys you mention knocked down Joe Louis, Joe Louis knocked all of those guys out except for Marciano.

Literally every piece of evidence says you're wrong.

You're wrong on paper. You're wrong if you watch the fighters and observe their skills. You're wrong on just about every level of this thing.

[gilgamesh]

Smokin' Joe weighed in heavier than Joe Louis whole career. And he had better chin to back it up. He is not getting rocked by a 168lbs Billy Conn.

Max Schmeling is not knocking out Joe Frazier.

Two Ton Tony Galento ain't dropping Frazier on the floor by any means.

It took a 6'3" 220lbs fighter like Big George Foreman to drop Frazier 8 times. Nobody else did it to him like that.

Big George is not Two Ton Tony.

Wilder getting dropped by a fat guy don't count though? A fat guy knocking you down is only embarrassing specifically when it's Tony Galento?

Harold Sconiers has 27 losses in 47 fights

Tony Galento has 26 losses in 110 fights, and he was knocked out 7 less times than Harold Sconiers who managed to knock down Wilder.

I bet you that Harold Sconniers weighed in much more than Two Ton Tony Galento. I bet you that he is way taller than the fat Tony Galento, too.

Deontay Wilder sends that fat bastard Galento out of the ring. He doesn't belong in the ring with Wilder.

I'll bet Two Ton Tony could've given Wilder a good go of it. Wilder would've won, but he would've known he was in a fight. Tony was tougher than you wanna give him credit for. His record shows that.