Greater Fighter: Harry Greb or Sugar Ray Robinson?

[Expug]

Let’s do this again. What do you consider fighting on the inside?

[elmersalsa]

And, you have guys listed there who were in weight divisions that Ray never fought in. I don’t think he ducked Ezzard Charles or Beau Jack, Archie Moore etc. How many divisions does he need to fight in?

The excuses are great and plenty. Sugar Ray Robinson fights middleweight Jake LaMotta 5 times. Well, Holman Williams, a terrific fighter was there. Why he didn't fight that guy? LaMotta fought Williams. Didn't he?

[Expug]

Probably money would be my guess. Could be other factors. You think he should have fought all those guys listed?

[Expug]

Tell me about fighting on the inside. No fighter does as well as he did not knowing how to do it. Period.

[elmersalsa]

Let’s do this again. What do you consider fighting on the inside?

Fighting on the inside is a lost art that Sugar Ray Robinson lacked. And plenty. That's why the Englishman, Randy Turpin exposed him in London, England in July 1951. Turpin gave him a boxing lesson. In his his prime.

The rematch came in New York City in 1951, and Turpin was giving him another boxing lesson until he got caught by a hook. But, until that time of the knockout, Turpin was beating Robinson.

Robinson never had the inside game. Every time he was in an inside fight, he caught hell. He caught hell with the great Carmen Basilio fighting inside. And Robinson used clinching tactics instead of fighting inside.

He never covered himself nor moved his head in fighting inside. Didn't throw inside uppercuts or left hooks to the body. All his left hooks were wide and in mid range. He never used his chin on the other guy's shoulder. Block his liver with his arms. He was terrible.

[elmersalsa]

Probably money would be my guess. Could be other factors. You think he should have fought all those guys listed?

Expug, I know that you can't fight everybody. There were plenty of great black boxers IN HIS TIME, that he could have fought. He didn't. He could not fight at least 5 of them? Ezzard Charles fought a lot of them great boxers. So did Archie Moore. So did Charley Burley. But, Robinson didn't looked at their way. His unbeaten record cannot be taken.

Believe me. If he would have fought those ignored black boxers of the 1940s, and beat at least 5 of them, his legacy would have been much greater. He would have been the ABSOLUTE GREATEST. But, he didn't.

[Expug]

I don’t agree with you about Rays fighting on the inside. I stand by the fact that he could do it all. Guys that crowded Ray took a lot of punishment.

[elmersalsa]

I don’t agree with you about Rays fighting on the inside. I stand by the fact that he could do it all. Guys that crowded Ray took a lot of punishment.

Believe me, you don't have to take my word for it. Sugar Ray Robinson was a terrible inside fighter.

The problem here is that we as Americans want to believe in everything about Sugar Ray Robinson and we bought it.

Why? Well, he is American. So, nobody in boxing should be able to be better than he in that regard because he is "boxing perfection". They are not going to give that title of boxing perfection to a Japanese. They are not going to give that boxing perfection title to an English man. They are not going to give that boxing title of perfection to a Puerto Rican. Will they? No! Absolutely not!

It doesn't fit the American media of boxing. It doesn't sell. When in reality, there comes the overrated fact that he was the most complete boxer ever when I see at least 12 fighters that did it better.

To me, no way in hell that Sugar Ray Robinson was the most complete boxer. In my lifetime, Eusebio Pedroza of Panama was the most complete boxer ever. But, according to the American boxing media, he can't be because he was a dirty fighter. The "dirty fighter" moniker stuck, and the American fan base bought it, when in reality, the guy was a complete technician.

American boxing writers destroyed a lot of fighters writing crap about their reputation. They're the ones that want you to believe that it is so.

So, when I say Pedroza was the most complete boxer, none of you in this forum, do a diligent search and take time to study his career. None of you! Because it's already given in their minds by the American boxing media that the guy was a dirty boxer, when in reality he wasn't.

And they hated him more because he was beating their American future prospects. It became an agenda against this great champion that didn't get the recognition that he truly deserves by calling him arrogant, dirty and all kinds of bad rap to sell the American public.

[Expug]

So how do you rate Barry Mcguigan? Pedroza had a rough time dealing with his left hook.
Also, Duran sure got lots of praise even though he wasn’t American.

[Ambling Alp II]

Let’s do this again. What do you consider fighting on the inside?

Fighting on the inside is a lost art that Sugar Ray Robinson lacked. And plenty. That's why the Englishman, Randy Turpin exposed him in London, England in July 1951. Turpin gave him a boxing lesson. In his his prime.

The rematch came in New York City in 1951, and Turpin was giving him another boxing lesson until he got caught by a hook. But, until that time of the knockout, Turpin was beating Robinson.

Robinson never had the inside game. Every time he was in an inside fight, he caught hell. He caught hell with the great Carmen Basilio fighting inside. And Robinson used clinching tactics instead of fighting inside.

He never covered himself nor moved his head in fighting inside. Didn't throw inside uppercuts or left hooks to the body. All his left hooks were wide and in mid range. He never used his chin on the other guy's shoulder. Block his liver with his arms. He was terrible.

Editor's note- Ray Robinson was not in his prime when he fought Turpin. He already had over 130 fights in his career at this point. It was also his 6th fight in 30 days.

[Expug]

Ray hooked to the body and head and stepped around his opponent. Great inside fighting. He did it fantastic. Why would he want to put his chin on his opponents shoulder and willingly clinch? He kept his arms free and landed bombs.

[elmersalsa]

So how do you rate Barry Mcguigan? Pedroza had a rough time dealing with his left hook.
Also, Duran sure got lots of praise even though he wasn’t American.

Every champion has his day. Eusebio Pedroza's time was up. He cannot reign forever. So cannot Joe Louis. So was the case with Roberto Duran at lightweight. Nobody can last forever. There's going to come a time that somebody will take your crown. Well, that happened to Pedroza. His time was up. He was 32 years old. He held the WBA World Featherweight Crown for 7 years. He made 20 title defenses beating good quality opponents. Let's give him his due.

Barry McGuigan was good. But in his best day that night, would not beat Pedroza on Pedroza's best day. And it showed. In his first title defense, he lost the crown against Steve Cruz, who wasn't a world beater.

As a matter of fact, McGuigan doesn't beat Pedroza nowhere outside of London, England. Pedroza was lured with $1 million dollars to come to defend the title there. It was the most money Pedroza won in his career for a fight.

[elmersalsa]

Let’s do this again. What do you consider fighting on the inside?

Fighting on the inside is a lost art that Sugar Ray Robinson lacked. And plenty. That's why the Englishman, Randy Turpin exposed him in London, England in July 1951. Turpin gave him a boxing lesson. In his his prime.

The rematch came in New York City in 1951, and Turpin was giving him another boxing lesson until he got caught by a hook. But, until that time of the knockout, Turpin was beating Robinson.

Robinson never had the inside game. Every time he was in an inside fight, he caught hell. He caught hell with the great Carmen Basilio fighting inside. And Robinson used clinching tactics instead of fighting inside.

He never covered himself nor moved his head in fighting inside. Didn't throw inside uppercuts or left hooks to the body. All his left hooks were wide and in mid range. He never used his chin on the other guy's shoulder. Block his liver with his arms. He was terrible.

Editor's note- Ray Robinson was not in his prime when he fought Turpin. He already had over 130 fights in his career at this point. It was also his 6th fight in 30 days.

Say what? Sugar Ray Robinson only had one loss in over 135 fights when he lost to Randy Turpin. The English man gave him a boxing lesson.

[elmersalsa]

Ray hooked to the body and head and stepped around his opponent. Great inside fighting. He did it fantastic. Why would he want to put his chin on his opponents shoulder and willingly clinch? He kept his arms free and landed bombs.

Sugar Ray Robinson did everything wrong when it came to inside fighting. The guy could not fight inside. He couldn't move his head. He didn't protect his body with the elbows.

Putting your chin in someone's shoulders shows how clever you can become in an inside fighting motion. All he did was clinch. He couldn't fight inside. He never protected his chin in the inside exchanges. He was terrible.

[gilgamesh]

Ray hooked to the body and head and stepped around his opponent. Great inside fighting. He did it fantastic. Why would he want to put his chin on his opponents shoulder and willingly clinch? He kept his arms free and landed bombs.

Sugar Ray Robinson did everything wrong when it came to inside fighting. The guy could not fight inside. He couldn't move his head. He didn't protect his body with the elbows.

Putting your chin in someone's shoulders shows how clever you can become in an inside fighting motion. All he did was clinch. He couldn't fight inside. He never protected his chin in the inside exchanges. He was terrible.

You sound like someone who's never watched a Robinson fight or doesn't know what inside fighting is.

[elmersalsa]

Ray hooked to the body and head and stepped around his opponent. Great inside fighting. He did it fantastic. Why would he want to put his chin on his opponents shoulder and willingly clinch? He kept his arms free and landed bombs.

Sugar Ray Robinson did everything wrong when it came to inside fighting. The guy could not fight inside. He couldn't move his head. He didn't protect his body with the elbows.

Putting your chin in someone's shoulders shows how clever you can become in an inside fighting motion. All he did was clinch. He couldn't fight inside. He never protected his chin in the inside exchanges. He was terrible.

You sound like someone who's never watched a Robinson fight or doesn't know what inside fighting is.

I guess that you really don't know about Sugar Ray Robinson. The most overrated boxers ever.

[Expug]

Ray hooked to the body and head and stepped around his opponent. Great inside fighting. He did it fantastic. Why would he want to put his chin on his opponents shoulder and willingly clinch? He kept his arms free and landed bombs.

Sugar Ray Robinson did everything wrong when it came to inside fighting. The guy could not fight inside. He couldn't move his head. He didn't protect his body with the elbows.

Putting your chin in someone's shoulders shows how clever you can become in an inside fighting motion. All he did was clinch. He couldn't fight inside. He never protected his chin in the inside exchanges. He was terrible.

You sound like someone who's never watched a Robinson fight or doesn't know what inside fighting is.

Putting your chin on your opponents shoulder isn’t clever. It’s clinching, and a good way to wind up with a busted jaw if you have your mouth open from fatigue, which lead to the clinch most likely and your opponent raises his shoulder upwards. Doesn’t feel good. I know.

[Ambling Alp II]

Fighting on the inside is a lost art that Sugar Ray Robinson lacked. And plenty. That's why the Englishman, Randy Turpin exposed him in London, England in July 1951. Turpin gave him a boxing lesson. In his his prime.

The rematch came in New York City in 1951, and Turpin was giving him another boxing lesson until he got caught by a hook. But, until that time of the knockout, Turpin was beating Robinson.

Robinson never had the inside game. Every time he was in an inside fight, he caught hell. He caught hell with the great Carmen Basilio fighting inside. And Robinson used clinching tactics instead of fighting inside.

He never covered himself nor moved his head in fighting inside. Didn't throw inside uppercuts or left hooks to the body. All his left hooks were wide and in mid range. He never used his chin on the other guy's shoulder. Block his liver with his arms. He was terrible.

Editor's note- Ray Robinson was not in his prime when he fought Turpin. He already had over 130 fights in his career at this point. It was also his 6th fight in 30 days.

Say what? Sugar Ray Robinson only had one loss in over 135 fights when he lost to Randy Turpin. The English man gave him a boxing lesson.

Say what? I said that Robinson had 6 fights in the previous 30 days. That certainly isn't not ideal.
You somehow complain that your hero (Duran) only had 5 months to prepare to fight Leonard the 2nd time. (btw the exact same amount of time as Leonard )

But you can't fathom that Robinson might not have been at very best after 135 fights and 6 fights in the previous 30 days? Really?

[elmersalsa]

Editor's note- Ray Robinson was not in his prime when he fought Turpin. He already had over 130 fights in his career at this point. It was also his 6th fight in 30 days.

Say what? Sugar Ray Robinson only had one loss in over 135 fights when he lost to Randy Turpin. The English man gave him a boxing lesson.

Say what? I said that Robinson had 6 fights in the previous 30 days. That certainly isn't not ideal.
You somehow complain that your hero (Duran) only had 5 months to prepare to fight Leonard the 2nd time. (btw the exact same amount of time as Leonard )

But you can't fathom that Robinson might not have been at very best after 135 fights and 6 fights in the previous 30 days? Really?

The guy was outboxed, out slicked and beaten by the Englishman. Randy Turpin kicked Sugar Ray Robinson azz in his prime. End of story.

[gilgamesh]

Say what? Sugar Ray Robinson only had one loss in over 135 fights when he lost to Randy Turpin. The English man gave him a boxing lesson.

Say what? I said that Robinson had 6 fights in the previous 30 days. That certainly isn't not ideal.
You somehow complain that your hero (Duran) only had 5 months to prepare to fight Leonard the 2nd time. (btw the exact same amount of time as Leonard )

But you can't fathom that Robinson might not have been at very best after 135 fights and 6 fights in the previous 30 days? Really?

The guy was outboxed, out slicked and beaten by the Englishman. Randy Turpin kicked Sugar Ray Robinson azz in his prime. End of story.

I don't know about outslicked. It was more of a case of he outworked, and outhustled a worn out and tired Ray Robinson, and he couldn't do it in a rematch with a more well rested and well prepared Robinson.

[elmersalsa]

Say what? I said that Robinson had 6 fights in the previous 30 days. That certainly isn't not ideal.
You somehow complain that your hero (Duran) only had 5 months to prepare to fight Leonard the 2nd time. (btw the exact same amount of time as Leonard )

But you can't fathom that Robinson might not have been at very best after 135 fights and 6 fights in the previous 30 days? Really?

The guy was outboxed, out slicked and beaten by the Englishman. Randy Turpin kicked Sugar Ray Robinson azz in his prime. End of story.

I don't know about outslicked. It was more of a case of he outworked, and outhustled a worn out and tired Ray Robinson, and he couldn't do it in a rematch with a more well rested and well prepared Robinson.

Randy Turpin was kicking his ass in the rematch 3 months later in New York. The referee told Sugar Ray Robinson that he would give him one more round and stop the fight.

Robinson, in the moment of urgency and desperation, stops Turpin. He had to. He was losing big time!

[gilgamesh]

The guy was outboxed, out slicked and beaten by the Englishman. Randy Turpin kicked Sugar Ray Robinson azz in his prime. End of story.

I don't know about outslicked. It was more of a case of he outworked, and outhustled a worn out and tired Ray Robinson, and he couldn't do it in a rematch with a more well rested and well prepared Robinson.

Randy Turpin was kicking his ass in the rematch 3 months later in New York. The referee told Sugar Ray Robinson that he would give him one more round and stop the fight.

Robinson, in the moment of urgency and desperation, stops Turpin. He had to. He was losing big time!

Robinson was ahead on 2 cards, and even on the other at the time of the stoppage in the rematch with Turpin.

[Expug]

So how do you rate Barry Mcguigan? Pedroza had a rough time dealing with his left hook.
Also, Duran sure got lots of praise even though he wasn’t American.

Every champion has his day. Eusebio Pedroza's time was up. He cannot reign forever. So cannot Joe Louis. So was the case with Roberto Duran at lightweight. Nobody can last forever. There's going to come a time that somebody will take your crown. Well, that happened to Pedroza. His time was up. He was 32 years old. He held the WBA World Featherweight Crown for 7 years. He made 20 title defenses beating good quality opponents. Let's give him his due.

Barry McGuigan was good. But in his best day that night, would not beat Pedroza on Pedroza's best day. And it showed. In his first title defense, he lost the crown against Steve Cruz, who wasn't a world beater.

As a matter of fact, McGuigan doesn't beat Pedroza nowhere outside of London, England. Pedroza was lured with $1 million dollars to come to defend the title there. It was the most money Pedroza won in his career for a fight.

Pedroza was 29 when he fought mcguigan

[elmersalsa]

So how do you rate Barry Mcguigan? Pedroza had a rough time dealing with his left hook.
Also, Duran sure got lots of praise even though he wasn’t American.

Every champion has his day. Eusebio Pedroza's time was up. He cannot reign forever. So cannot Joe Louis. So was the case with Roberto Duran at lightweight. Nobody can last forever. There's going to come a time that somebody will take your crown. Well, that happened to Pedroza. His time was up. He was 32 years old. He held the WBA World Featherweight Crown for 7 years. He made 20 title defenses beating good quality opponents. Let's give him his due.

Barry McGuigan was good. But in his best day that night, would not beat Pedroza on Pedroza's best day. And it showed. In his first title defense, he lost the crown against Steve Cruz, who wasn't a world beater.

As a matter of fact, McGuigan doesn't beat Pedroza nowhere outside of London, England. Pedroza was lured with $1 million dollars to come to defend the title there. It was the most money Pedroza won in his career for a fight.

Pedroza was 29 when he fought mcguigan

It's uncertain when was Eusebio Pedroza, the great Featherweight World Champion of Panama was born. Some say he was born in 1973. Other documents say 1976.

And even if he was 29, he was already a world champion for 7 years and 20 title defenses. Every champion got an expiration date. Some have longer reigns and some have shorter. The point is that the guy was a great champion that the American boxing media didn't give the credit that he really deserved.

But, in any other city and before 1985, Barry McGuigan, on his best day, would have not beaten a prime Pedroza. I could tell you that.

[elmersalsa]

I don't know about outslicked. It was more of a case of he outworked, and outhustled a worn out and tired Ray Robinson, and he couldn't do it in a rematch with a more well rested and well prepared Robinson.

Randy Turpin was kicking his ass in the rematch 3 months later in New York. The referee told Sugar Ray Robinson that he would give him one more round and stop the fight.

Robinson, in the moment of urgency and desperation, stops Turpin. He had to. He was losing big time!

Robinson was ahead on 2 cards, and even on the other at the time of the stoppage in the rematch with Turpin.

I don't know what the judges were watching. It would have been a robbery if the fight went to the cards. Why? Randy Turpin was putting it on him.

Plus, Sugar Ray Robinson was suffering a cut in one of his eyes. The referee gave him one more round and Robinson, in desperation mode, stops the clever Englishman in 10 rounds.