Miranda vs Abraham

Floyd · Post by **Floyd** » 25 Sep 2006, 11:05

Abraham just backed up with a high guard. Every now and then he would come out of his shell throwing those wild hooks of his. Was pathetic watching him trying to get out of the fight after the butt. Glad to hear the ref say the butt didnt cause the jaw problem. It also seemed as if the ref gave him an eternity after the butt to commence fighting again.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 25 Sep 2006, 19:23

MightyWarrior wrote:This fight goes to show, that if a world title is on the line in Germany, the house fighter just has to stand up to win.

I didn't score it, but the very brave AA pretty much just backed off and held for the last 6 rounds of the fight, with a few bursts of punches here and there. But the judges had no choice I guess, because the ref Randy Neuman deducted about 4 points off the very hard done by Miranda.

Looked like Neuman was very much in the German promoter's back pocket, bending over backwards to give AA every chance he could.

That headbutt was no more than a gentle brush alongside AA's head on the replays. And the low blow was very bordeline too.

Absolutely brutal fight: agony to watch the broken jawed Arthur seeing out the last 6 rounds. His mouth was a gaping mess of blood, spilling out whenever he was hit.

Miranda will come again no doubt: a monster puncher and there wont be too many who'll stand up to him I think. AA was shocked by his power.

His cornerman Ulli Wegner was an absolute master. His upbeat words and non stop encouragement kept AA going through his darkest hours. He was on the verge of quitting I think, but Ulli talked him through time after time, every round.

Cornerman of the year for me, absolutely brilliant.

Great post, MightyWarrior. Not sure Arthur's brother, Alexander, would totally agree with you about Wegner/the corner though - he was for going for them after the bell!

The wound was horrible but his, albeit slightly limited, imagination was good to see in such circumstance.

One habit I just do not like with Arthur though, is how he will casually turn his back and walk away for a breather. The age-old axiom 'DEFEND YOURSELF AT ALL TIMES' doesn't seem to apply to his safe little soujourns around the German ring. It's the way his swagger flaunts the knowledge that gets my goat.

Real fighter though.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 25 Sep 2006, 19:49

Thanks Manos De P - yes his brother looked a bit pissed off by events I did notice...not sure what that was all about, probably just seeing his brother in agony for 6 rounds or so I guess. And yes, he gets away with the old walk about trick, time after time for sure.

I probably didn't give enough credit to AA over the opening rounds though. He looked in charge untill picking up the broken jaw, but was certainly shocked by the firepower coming his way.

Deserves a rematch, but I doubt it'll happen if the German camp have anything to say about it!

Pong · Post by **Pong** » 26 Sep 2006, 12:07

Floyd wrote:Abraham just backed up with a high guard. Every now and then he would come out of his shell throwing those wild hooks of his. Was pathetic watching him trying to get out of the fight after the butt.

Yeah what a coward.

Latuch! · Post by **Latuch!** » 26 Sep 2006, 14:18

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Sounds to me that in another country Abraham may well have been stopped, Corralles was stopped for less against Casamayor.

Absolutely.

Also Miranda would have been stopped in Germany had he suffered a broken jaw with a heavy bleeding that the corner was not able to stop.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 26 Sep 2006, 14:49

Also in over countries Miranda may well have been DQ'd for the intentional headbutt..

Maxime wrote:For all the people saying Miranda was "robbed".

Here are the IBF rules in case of an intentional foul (headbutt):
http://www.ibf-usba-boxing.com/userfile ... 0Rules.pdf

"Any contestant who deliberately fouls his opponent during a contest will be penalized
with loss of points or disqualification, depending upon the severity of the foul and the
effect upon the opponent."

"If there is an intentional foul and the contest can continue, a two point deduction
for intentional fouls is mandatory."

In other word the ref had no choice but to take away two points after the obvious intentional headbutt from Miranda.

Second here are some of the low blows.
http://img48. .us/img48/876/aaemrd112ek9.jpg
http://img117. .us/img117/4615/aaemrd61ee1.jpg
http://img48. .us/img48/5408/aaemrd91sw8.jpg

Again clearly low blows considering Abraham wear his trunk below his waist line.

Case closed.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 26 Sep 2006, 14:51

Those punches do look low.

Floyd · Post by **Floyd** » 26 Sep 2006, 16:18

They look borderline low to me.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 26 Sep 2006, 16:26

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Sounds to me that in another country Abraham may well have been stopped, Corralles was stopped for less against Casamayor.

Maybe we should wait untill the doctors report before making that assumption. All I can remember was that the Corrales damage look fecking sick. Plus on the spot Margret Goodman did heavily suspect he had a broken jaw also (not sure if he did though).

I'm not saying your wrong, perhaps this fight should have been stopped. Brave as it was, I don't want to see another Ali vs Norton again. I do think Margret Goodman was spot on stopping the Corrales vs Casamayor fight..... Wayne McCullough vs Oscar Larios 2....... now thats a different matter IMO.

Latuch! · Post by **Latuch!** » 26 Sep 2006, 16:56

stujones wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Sounds to me that in another country Abraham may well have been stopped, Corralles was stopped for less against Casamayor.
Maybe we should wait untill the doctors report before making that assumption. All I can remember was that the Corrales damage look fecking sick. Plus on the spot Margret Goodman did heavily suspect he had a broken jaw also (not sure if he did though).

I'm not saying your wrong, perhaps this fight should have been stopped. Brave as it was, I don't want to see another Ali vs Norton again. I do think Margret Goodman was spot on stopping the Corrales vs Casamayor fight..... Wayne McCullough vs Oscar Larios 2....... now thats a different matter IMO.

Here is an article in german:
http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/sport/a ... auben.html

It says his jaw is fractured in two places, he has 22 bolts and 2 titanium plates. They needed 2,5 hours for the surgery.

Of course it happens in boxing, but if you know it has actually happened, you should stop the fight!

Here is a link to an interview with AA:
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=8358&more=1

And here is a comment by a GERMAN guy. I told you many times in different threads, it was NOT due to AA to continue. Uli yelled him into fighting after every round! Its a pity they speak german in AAs corner, isn't it?

He is a true warrior. But he lied in this interview. He said after round 5, my jaw is broken and he trainer told him that it was bullshit. He also said like time tens that he wanted to quite, and his trainer just refused him to quite.

darkstar81 · Post by **darkstar81** » 26 Sep 2006, 17:31

Thanks to whoever posted the link. I watched the fight last night. Wasn't anywhere near as bloody as people where making it out to be but Abraham's jaw did look messed up and he showed huge heart and balls to make it to the end. I thought he won the fight.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 27 Sep 2006, 06:19

Floyd wrote:They look borderline low to me.

The third is borderline, the first two are definetly low, no question.

In Corralles case I don't think the jaw was broken, and the profusion of blood left little choice.

It's hard not to come to the conclusion that fights in Germany seem to lend themselves to the hometown fighter being given every opportunity to win the fight. I am not saying germany alone, but I think that as there are a lot of high profile opportunities for referees and judges in Germany, due to the success of german fighters and promoters, I think that perhaps officials feel a pressure to 'do the right thing' by the fighters and promoters.

I would need to see this fight to really form a solid opinion, but that Jaw looks horrific, and I can well see the fight being stopped had the fight been on neutral ground.

salaco · Post by **salaco** » 27 Sep 2006, 09:21

pretty good fight, it was clear IMO that Abraham was the better fighter although a draw would have been a fair result here...roll on the rematch- both guys have been criticised for being a little raw but at least they're both genuine top 5 middleweights...Taylor-Ouma and Winky-Quartey is just ridiculous

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 27 Sep 2006, 10:16

Quite, what utter rot. Back to back fights with Hopkins and then Wright are of course the mark of a born coward.....hilarious stuff.

salaco · Post by **salaco** » 27 Sep 2006, 10:34

Did I say that ?

The point is that considerable HBO money is being thrown at Wright and Taylor to fight a used up welterweight and an undersized junior middleweight respectively, neither of whom have fought at middleweight and both whom are at a considerable disadvantage with respect to styles and size (would anyone consider quartey or ouma live dogs?)

..Would it be too much to ask to have them face top 10-15 MW opposition? Is it not fcked up for them then to pass (in favor of arce vs used up junior flyweight, see the pattern) up on a middleweight title fight of guaranteed excitement versus two top MW fighters ?

It should also be pointed out that for all the plaudits Taylor has gotten for facing wright and hopkins, they were the only legit actual MWs he has faced in his career to date and one could argue he is 0-3-0 or 0-2-1 in that span...

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 27 Sep 2006, 10:43

If they do fight again, look for Taylor to give Wright a slapping second time around. I doubt he will stop him, but he'll give him a going over.

Would be interesting to see Abraham in with the likes of Wright to see how that one panned out, but I predict Winky would want no part of that.

salaco · Post by **salaco** » 27 Sep 2006, 10:47

Terence wrote:
salaco wrote:Did I say that ?
The point is that considerable HBO money is being thrown at Wright and Taylor to fight a used up welterweight and an undersized junior middleweight respectively, neither of whom have fought at middleweight and both whom are at a considerable disadvantage with respect to styles and size (would anyone consider quartey or ouma live dogs?)

..Would it be too much to ask to have them face top 10-15 MW opposition? Is it not fcked up for them then to pass (in favor of arce vs used up junior flyweight, see the pattern) up on a middleweight title fight of guaranteed excitement versus two top MW fighters ?

It should also be pointed out that for all the plaudits Taylor has gotten for facing wright and hopkins, they were the only legit actual MWs he has faced in his career to date and one could argue he is 0-3-0 or 0-2-1 in that span...
Aside from Edouard? Plus Joppy?

HBO threw money at Wright and Taylor to fight a rematch but Wright tarted himself out of the match so they had Ouma on the backburner. Wright cannot handle full blown middleweights.

Edouard is a club fighter, and a fat little middleweight, Joppy had his face turned to hamburger by Hopkins and was as used up as you like, you may as well have given him the likes of Grady Brewer and Freddie Cuevas-sure they fought at MW but they are not legitimate MW contenders...

I like Taylor, I think he's the #1 MW but I despise HBO for throwing money at mismatches and showcases against lower weight names...

salaco · Post by **salaco** » 27 Sep 2006, 10:53

jamesmcdonnell wrote:If they do fight again, look for Taylor to give Wright a slapping second time around. I doubt he will stop him, but he'll give him a going over.

Would be interesting to see Abraham in with the likes of Wright to see how that one panned out, but I predict Winky would want no part of that.

Winky's belief in what he's worth means that would never happen unless HBO emptied the piggy bank, but right now, I think Winky's telephone pole jab would put Abraham off his game and the latter is not active enough to outwork nor accurate enough to punch through Winky's guard...competitive but not close UD to winky..

salaco · Post by **salaco** » 27 Sep 2006, 11:02

Terence wrote:
salaco wrote:
Terence wrote: Aside from Edouard? Plus Joppy?

HBO threw money at Wright and Taylor to fight a rematch but Wright tarted himself out of the match so they had Ouma on the backburner. Wright cannot handle full blown middleweights.
Edouard is a club fighter, and a fat little middleweight, Joppy had his face turned to hamburger by Hopkins and was as used up as you like, you may as well have given him the likes of Grady Brewer and Freddie Cuevas-sure they fought at MW but they are not legitimate MW contenders...

I like Taylor, I think he's the #1 MW but I despise HBO for throwing money at mismatches and showcases against lower weight names...
Swollen yes, hamburger no, he is still a good yardstick.

Fat, or not, middleweight still stands.

HBO have moved Taylor through three genuine MW fights, bitch and moan about 0-2-1, 3-2-1 or Dusty the Bin all you like, Taylor can take the Ouma fight with a clear mind.

Beyond beating fellow club bum Willie Gibbs and sharing fights with beaupierre (who was properly handled by a legit MW contender in Pavlik), ESPN fights which basically got the Edouard the Taylor gig, Edouard had done nothing, he was and is not a legit MW...in fact, I think he has even dropped a division since, proof if it was needed...

Joppy's face was unrecognisable, worse even that Malignaggi or Abraham...

fornicate taylor's clear mind, the point is that Taylor-Ouma is a foregone conclusion and a bullshit fight...

salaco · Post by **salaco** » 27 Sep 2006, 11:25

quote]

Edourad has been as high as 170, he dropped because the #1 guy beat the shit out of him and he may like to have a career of sorts. He always weighed fairly high and is likely to hurt himself at the lower weight. Here is a newsflash, prospects take on less than stellar fights. They then take one another on and fight a Champ, as Taylor has done. What they do not do afterwards is take on the guy considered consensus #1. Taylor did this and still you whinge?

You said he had beaten no MW's, then you backed off and said he had beaten an old one and a bum. You must have jumpers for goalposts to move them so freely.

Here is another newsflash, many MW fights feature fighters moving up, most of the great ones in fact. MW is traditionally deepened by fighters moving from lower weights.

Also matchmaking a good name at a late stage is tricky, Ouma is a name and a decent fight given Taylor's CV recently. Blame Wright.[/quote]

literacy 101, I said "legit" MWs, Edouard does not fit the bill, get it?.
For example, in contrast with Abraham, he had never fought an undefeated big MW like Ikeke (in fact that was an obvious fight that never happened), a top 10 MW coming off a respectable showing in a title fight like Eastman...even Edouard I would put below a level of the likes of velazco and hamden....

Taylor was carefully guided to the title shot, no shame in that, it what's done nowadays but there's no question he lacks a damn definitive win at MW to stamp his authority on the division and Ouma is just the guy to do that except for the fact he's a JMW (and a short one too, Ouma is not moving up to MW, he's just movin up for some Taylor bucks)..

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 27 Sep 2006, 11:28

salaco wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:If they do fight again, look for Taylor to give Wright a slapping second time around. I doubt he will stop him, but he'll give him a going over.

Would be interesting to see Abraham in with the likes of Wright to see how that one panned out, but I predict Winky would want no part of that.
Winky's belief in what he's worth means that would never happen unless HBO emptied the piggy bank, but right now, I think Winky's telephone pole jab would put Abraham off his game and the latter is not active enough to outwork nor accurate enough to punch through Winky's guard...competitive but not close UD to winky..

Yes I think you are right on both counts. Winky is going to price himself out of every high profile fight that he could win, and then spend the rest of the time whinging about how he never got any breaks.

He got a draw against Taylor in a fight in which he actually provided some excitement for a change, and he should be looking to make a mark at middleweight. I'm sure he could beat most of the guys at MW, just probably not a big and talented one like Taylor. A fight with Miranda would probably make for a good spectacle, and one he could probably win pretty easy.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 27 Sep 2006, 12:07

Terence wrote:
salaco wrote:
Terence wrote: Swollen yes, hamburger no, he is still a good yardstick.

Fat, or not, middleweight still stands.

HBO have moved Taylor through three genuine MW fights, bitch and moan about 0-2-1, 3-2-1 or Dusty the Bin all you like, Taylor can take the Ouma fight with a clear mind.
Beyond beating fellow club bum Willie Gibbs and sharing fights with beaupierre (who was properly handled by a legit MW contender in Pavlik), ESPN fights which basically got the Edouard the Taylor gig, Edouard had done nothing, he was and is not a legit MW...in fact, I think he has even dropped a division since, proof if it was needed...

Joppy's face was unrecognisable, worse even that Malignaggi or Abraham...

smeg taylor's clear mind, the point is that Taylor-Ouma is a foregone conclusion and a bullshit fight...
Edourad has been as high as 170, he dropped because the #1 guy beat the shit out of him and he may like to have a career of sorts. He always weighed fairly high and is likely to hurt himself at the lower weight. Here is a newsflash, prospects take on less than stellar fights. They then take one another on and fight a Champ, as Taylor has done. What they do not do afterwards is take on the guy considered consensus #1. Taylor did this and still you whinge?

You said he had beaten no MW's, then you backed off and said he had beaten an old one and a bum. You must have jumpers for goalposts to move them so freely.

Here is another newsflash, many MW fights feature fighters moving up, most of the great ones in fact. MW is traditionally deepened by fighters moving from lower weights.

Also matchmaking a good name at a late stage is tricky, Ouma is a name and a decent fight given Taylor's CV recently. Blame Wright.

Fair enough on Taylor gunning for the champ and then defending against the beyond doubt top contender in Winky. Can't fault that. However, he really should've fought Eastman and Ikeke on the way up as they would've been great learning experiences. Also, Edouard was a safe but live foe. E had won an exciting fight vs Willie Gibbs and was deemed dangerous. He was also Taylor's ex sparring partner whom JT knew inside out already & I hear had been handled by JT in the gym. So really Taylor-Edouard was a bit of a set up, to make Taylor look impresive on the Hopkins v Eastman undercard.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 27 Sep 2006, 12:12

jamesmcdonnell wrote:If they do fight again, look for Taylor to give Wright a slapping second time around. I doubt he will stop him, but he'll give him a going over.

Would be interesting to see Abraham in with the likes of Wright to see how that one panned out, but I predict Winky would want no part of that.

ok, but what happened to the first time?

I wasn't too bothered with the decision, but a lot of ppl feel WW beat Taylor. Despite soaking up big shots Winky kept taking the play away from him & who's to say it wouldn't happen again?

Taylor could do with Ouma and then Miranda. I don't think JT's the complete package yet, but it'll be good to see him under some pressure, responding to crises, against styles that can make him look good.

Ouma probably won't be a walkover. If Team Taylor don't make a fight with Miranda sometime they are stupid.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 27 Sep 2006, 13:05

Terence wrote:Ps 'Maussa, I think a few of your points got mixed in with the other guys

lol, i was just preparing my angry retort

Knightmare. · Post by **Knightmare.** » 27 Sep 2006, 21:02

Yes a tremendously interesing insight into the fight you have made there.

Im in awe at this level of gifted post.

Please could you delve further into your take on this fight.Thanks

Im just new here and looking to learn.So thanks for any help