Muhammad Ali (Pre Exile) vs Joe Frazier and Ken Norton in a series & George Foreman

[GordonChen]

Let say if Ali wasn’t exile in his boxing then took the fight with Frazier and then Norton both in a series then fought foreman later afterwards how would his record gone like?

[Ambling Alp II]

He would have gone undefeated. Way too fast with both his hands and his feet. Ultimately, it would come down to this: He would have been hitting them a lot more than they would be hitting him. A lot more. Ali was the only heavyweight that was great both offensively and defensively.

[gilgamesh]

I'd say the one with the best shot of the 3 at beating him would've been Norton. Ali would've been tougher to deal with pre exile, but Norton i think always would've given him hell.

[elmersalsa]

If Smokin' Joe whupped him in 1971 Fight of the Century, he would beat Muhammad Ali of '67 also. Ken Norton would have beaten him and Jimmy Young, too.

You never know. In the 70s decade, Ali was stronger. In the 60s, he was faster, but not as strong as in the 70s.

[goose 5]

Ali goes undefeated.

[elmersalsa]

Ali goes undefeated.

It would not be farfetched if he comes undefeated. Muhammad Ali was one of a kind. A top 5 all-time pound per pound great boxer and the #1 heavyweight ever in my view. He was too fast for those guys.

But, Smokin' Joe Frazier would always be a rough matchup for him. He was too relentless. Something that Ali in the 60s never experienced.

Jimmy Young was as clever as a fox. A beautiful boxer if given the right connections, would have been one of the best of all time. The way that he manhandled George Foreman was a masterpiece of the ages. He whupped a past prime Ali, but, if Ali was prime that night, he probably would have lost to him, too. Young was a clever fighter.

Ken Norton would always be Ali's Achilles hill, no matter what version of Ali comes. If Karl Mindelberger gave Ali trouble in '66, so would Norton.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali goes undefeated.

Yep. He was just too fast. He so much harder to hit in his prime than after he came back. Of course he was better pre-exile. fighters don't sit out for 3 and half years and come back better than ever.
And the video doesn't lie.
His going to be landing more punches and taking a lot less than he did after the exile. It really goes down to that.

[witherspoon]

Interesting thing about this scenario is that (assuming Ali wins all three), how does that affect his legacy?

We (I, at least) rank Ali as the greatest heavyweight partly due to his strength in adversity during the second half of his career.

He had to overcome a serious beating and a broken jaw at the hands of Frazier and Norton to come back as an underdog and defeat Frazier and (most impressively) Foreman.

Without those reversals, if Ali breezes past his 3 toughest foes instead of being stripped of the title, does he get the same kudos for beating those guys after his layoff or does he end up being assessed closer to Louis and Johnson or even Marciano?

[gilgamesh]

Interesting thing about this scenario is that (assuming Ali wins all three), how does that affect his legacy?

We (I, at least) rank Ali as the greatest heavyweight partly due to his strength in adversity during the second half of his career.

He had to overcome a serious beating and a broken jaw at the hands of Frazier and Norton to come back as an underdog and defeat Frazier and (most impressively) Foreman.

Without those reversals, if Ali breezes past his 3 toughest foes instead of being stripped of the title, does he get the same kudos for beating those guys after his layoff or does he end up being assessed closer to Louis and Johnson or even Marciano?

That's a good question and an interesting point when you consider that Frazier and Norton are considered to be as tough as they are specifically BECAUSE they beat Ali. So if they just never did, maybe those wins aren't seen in the same way by fans and historians.

[DrDuke]

Frazier and Norton defeated him and they would have always done the same in their top shapes. It's hard not to remember the controversial score in the 3rd Norton fight. The guy was an absolute anti-Ali force.

[Seamus]

Watch all 3 Norton fights again. Whenever Ali gets up on his toes and boxes he dominates, when he lays on the ropes and does nothing he loses rounds. I have no doubt whatsoever if he'd have stuck and moved alot more, he'd have won all 3 fights.

[keithmoonhangover]

He would have gone undefeated. Way too fast with both his hands and his feet. Ultimately, it would come down to this: He would have been hitting them a lot more than they would be hitting him. A lot more. Ali was the only heavyweight that was great both offensively and defensively.

Same.

[gilgamesh]

Watch all 3 Norton fights again. Whenever Ali gets up on his toes and boxes he dominates, when he lays on the ropes and does nothing he loses rounds. I have no doubt whatsoever if he'd have stuck and moved alot more, he'd have won all 3 fights.

Yes Ali controls the 2nd fight with Norton pretty clear with his movement.

[elmersalsa]

Watch all 3 Norton fights again. Whenever Ali gets up on his toes and boxes he dominates, when he lays on the ropes and does nothing he loses rounds. I have no doubt whatsoever if he'd have stuck and moved alot more, he'd have won all 3 fights.

You can't move all over the ring the whole night. At one point in the fight, Muhammad Ali would have to stop and trade with Ken Norton, even at his very best.

[Seamus]

Of course you can do it. You just have to train hard enough. Guys like Greb, Harada, Calzaghe could throw punches non stop because they trained for it. Ali got a little goofy with that rope a dope tactic. Because it worked on Foreman didn't mean it would work on everyone.

[gilgamesh]

Watch all 3 Norton fights again. Whenever Ali gets up on his toes and boxes he dominates, when he lays on the ropes and does nothing he loses rounds. I have no doubt whatsoever if he'd have stuck and moved alot more, he'd have won all 3 fights.

You can't move all over the ring the whole night. At one point in the fight, Muhammad Ali would have to stop and trade with Ken Norton, even at his very best.

He could move enough in their rematch in 1973 to get the job done though. I can't imagine he couldn't do at least that well in his 1960's Championship form. I'd expect him to do better. I figure he'd have a few more rounds of bounce in them legs.