Great Middleweights who Never Held the Title ?

[The Keed]

Lloyd Marshall

Holly Mims

[The Keed]

Thank you for Holly Mims.

My understanding was that Mims, while purportedly fighting out of Washington, D.C., was actually run by Chicago people---

who used him as a useful cog in their own machine----

which would explain the fact that his ability was so superior to his pr or the supposed record he had in the ring.

He was probably robbed a few times too. I know his "loss" to Joey Archer was THE worst decision I've ever seen. Mims totally whupped him and clearly won like 7 out of 10 rounds... and the only reason Archer won any rounds at all is because Old Man Mims had to take off a couple of rounds to get his stamina back. Mims was probably about 35/36 then. Archer's hometown fans booed the decision like crazy and were throwing things into the ring.

Mims also took a fight with Hurricane Carter on just a few hours notice and gave Carter all he could handle. He dropped Carter in that fight.

[enrique]

KID TUNERO WHO BEAT HIS SHARE OF WORLD CHAMPS AND EUROPEAN CHAMPS. HE EVEN BEAT EZZARD CHARLES.

[Tomato-Can]

Eduardo Lausse
Bennie Briscoe
Ray Seales
Denny Moyer

Although the above fighters fall short of greatness, they all would have held at least a piece of a title nowadays.

[Vetteguy99]

Fully Obel
Willie Monroe
George Cooper

[Jaclem]

terap....i made a post somewhere on kid Tunero, but it was mostly just from pointing out interesting info from reading boxrec.

I also wrote somewhere that Ezzard Charles said he "froze" the night he lost to him. Said he did things he had never seen a fighter do and had no answer for them. also said it was a great learning experience.

I'm glad someone besides me lists Bert Lytell. Definitely championship caliber.

Saw him fight bigger and very tough Oakland Billy Smith in Cincinnati and he had Smith going nuts. In fact Smith got so mad at one point he STARTED SPITTING IN HIS EAR...and wouldn't stop until the referee threatened to disqualify him.

Lytell was a southopaw with a kind of pigeon toed stance. that was the only time I ever saw him but followed his career from then on.

All of the other names listed here are high quiality fighters.

[Jaclem]

charles fought tunero before I got interested in boxing, so i didn't read about it at the time. when I talked to ezzard about it , it was years later. now I'm not so sure it was ezz who used the word "froze"....it might have been someone who was part of his team.

as to what tunero did that he hadn't seen before....i don't think he elaborated and i was too dumb to follow up....and it was hard to get snooks to talk about the past anyway. i do remember he said it was a "learning experience.'

Smith vs. Lytell....one of the first fights I ever saw and didn't know much about boxing so there were no doubt things I missed i would see now. i was pulling for smith...he had a lot of cincinnati fans...but even i could tell he was losing. he had a hard time hitting lytell...did okay when he jabbed but lytell seemed to block everything else. i think lytell was letting smith jab because he countered just about every time smith threw or even landed it. by the middle rounds it was easy to see that smith was getting frustrated and he just started throwing power punches but couldn't get them to lytell, who fought inside for a while, then would step out and throw start with his own right jab. i wish I had known more about boxing then and of course wish my memory of it was better. from what I CAN recall I'd say lytell was a very subtle fighter who moved from side to side but not far from his opponent..always in position to lead or counter.i've already written about smith spitting in lytell's ear.

the papers the next day really jumped on smith for his bad behavior and had lytell winning easily.

they fought each other more than this once, but I know that only from boxrec.

best i can do, terap. now i'd like to hear YOUR take on lytell,,and if you saw him fight .

[enrique]

TERAP ASKED ME TO POST ON TUNERO. MIKE DE LISA AND I HAVE RECONSTRUCTED HIS RECORD FAIRLY WELL - MUCH OF THE RAW DATA WE BOTH OBTAINED FROM HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY WRITEN IN SPANISH. I DID NOT SEE HIM FIGHT BUT I HAVE TALKED TO THOSE WHO DID AND READ THE CLIPPINGS.

OLD TIME CUBAN AND EUROPEAN SPORTS WRITERS STATE THAT TUNERO WAS AN EXCELLENT, VERY ORTHODOX BOXER. CRITICS SAID HE WAS SO GOOD THAT HE WAS BORING - A LA ZORA FOLLEY. A SOFT SPOKEN BLACK MAN WHO NEVER CURSED, DRANK OR SMOKED, TUNERO WAS A FIRST RATE COUNTERPUNCHER WHO KNEW ALL THE BOOK MOVES AND EXECUTED FLAWLESSLY. NO WASTED MOTION OR FLASHY MOVES. SHORT UPPERCUTS AND SNAPPING JABS. ALWAYS IN BALANCE, MEASURING DISTANCE IN FRACTIONS OF INCH TO MOVE IN AND OUT OF THE DANGER ZONE.

OF THE CHARLES FIGHT, TUNERO WROTE THAT HE WORKED CHARLES FROM THE OUTSIDE, HIS BEST ROUND BEING THE SEVENTH WHEN HE WENT INSIDE AND SURPRISED CHARLES WITH A BODY SHOT ATTACK. TUNERO STATED IN SEVERAL INTERVIEWS THAT HE WAS VERY SHARP AND TOO SEASONED FOR CHARLES, ALSO STATING THAT EZZARD'S PUNCHES WERE EXTREMELY SOLID.

I DID NOT KNOW TUNERO BUT I DID KNOW CHARLES -IN THE SIXTIES WHEN I TRAINED AT JOHNNY COULON'S AND EZZ WAS BEGINNING TO GO DOWNHILL WITH ILLNESS. I TALKED TO HIM ABOUT TUNERO AND HIS COMMENT -OR ALL I REMEMBER- IS THAT HE DESCRIBED THE KID AS BEING SLIPPERY, DIFFICULT TO HIT.

TUNERO FOUGHT ALL OVER THE WORLD IN EVERYONE'S BACK YARD AND BEAT HIS SHARE OF CHAMPIONS AND CONTENDERS. TUNERO BECAME A CELEBRITY AND WAS ONE OF ERNEST HEMINGWAY'S REAL FRIENDS HANGING OUT WITH HIM IN BOTH EUROPE AND CUBA.

AFTER CASTRO CAME TO POWER HE WENT TO EXILE IN SPAIN. TUNERO WAS A TOP TRAINER AND MANAGER IN BARCELONA. HE HANDLED SEVERAL NATIONAL SPANISH TITLEHOLDERS AND WAS THE TRAINER-MANAGER OF WORLD CHAMP JOSE LEGRA. HIS WIFE- YOLETE- IS FRENCH AND I DO BELIEVE HIS TWO SONS ARE ART TEACHERS IN FRANCE OR SPAIN.

I KNOW A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT KNEW TUNERO AND I HAVE NEVER HEARD A BAD WORD SAID ABOUT HIM. HE WAS A CLEAN LIVING FAMILY MAN, AN EXCELLENT PRO WHO CAME CLOSE TO A TITLE WHEN A BELT MEANT SOMETHING AND A FIRST RATE TRAINER AND HONEST MANAGER.

IF BOXING IS A RELIGION -TUNERO WAS A SAINT - AND IN THE FIGHT GAME, SAINTS ARE RARE....

[Trent]

Well Dave Sands beat "Bobo Olson" twice, and he was middle weight champ a few years after that

[grevan]

Kid McCoy did hold the middleweight title ---won it from Tommy Ryan, who he tricked into thinking he was badly out of shape.

Les Darcy is a great choice.

Amazed I forgot about him.

Les Darcy did hold a title but it wasn't recognised universally. Think he 'won' it from Jeff Smith

Dave Sands was called the uncrowned middleweight champion by Ray Robinson although he probably said it out of respect for the fact that Sands had just been killed in an accident

Nope,

Les Darcy lost to Jeff Smith (who was never the world middleweight champ) by 5th round KO and won on a foul in a rematch.


He only held the Austrailian portion of the title.

There was a lot of controversy surrounding the first Smith - Darcy fight. Darcy's corner claimed that Smith repeatedly hit Darcy low and complained to the referee, who ignored them. With Darcy looking sick and clutching his groin at the end of round five his trainer, in disgust, threw in the towel. The referee, who had had his share of run-ins with the Darcy camp decided that the throwing in of the towel was unjustified and disqualified Darcy. Smith W DQ5 Darcy. It should be noted that Darcy was never knocked out in his career and was ahead on points at the time.

In the second fight Smith's low blows were evident to all, including the same referee, who this time disqualified Smith in the second round. Darcy W DQ 2 Smith. After this fight Darcy was recognised in some parts as the Middleweight Champion, though admittedly not in America. He went on to defend his "title" ten times against many world class opponents including Eddie McGoorty (TKO 15, TKO 9), Jimmy Clabby (W Pts 20 twice) and George Chip (KO 9).

All this and Darcy had his last fight at the age of 20. In different circumstances he'd have gone on to fight the likes of Greb, Dillon and Gibbons.

Definitely one of the greatest Middleweights never to hold the recognised title.

[Mr E]

In no particular order, Mike Gibbons, Charley Burley, Ace Hudkins, Jack Chase, Kid Tunero, Bad Bennie Briscoe, Holman Williams.

Phila. Jack O'Brien and Jack Dillon were arguably natural middleweights even though they each won the light-heavy title. Sam Langford was briefly a middleweight.

If you don't consider them to have been "champs," then Les Darcy and Freddie Steele.

I'm tempted to mention Sugar Ray Seales and Ronnie Harris but I just can't bring myself to do it. Er....

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I wouldn't call him great. But since most of them have already been covered Mustapha hamsho deserves a mention. He was a hard man and is underrated nowadays. Only Hagler could handle him at his best. Mustapha Would have ran Taylor out of the ring.

[The Great John L]

I'm tempted to mention Sugar Ray Seales and Ronnie Harris but I just can't bring myself to do it.

You did mention them and Harris was an obscenely skilled fighter.

[wsbuf]

Joey Giambra

[Ezzard]

I wouldn't call him great. But since most of them have already been covered Mustapha hamsho deserves a mention. He was a hard man and is underrated nowadays. Only Hagler could handle him at his best. Mustapha Would have ran Taylor out of the ring.

Top contender. The Minter fight was very close.

[Mr E]

I'm tempted to mention Sugar Ray Seales and Ronnie Harris but I just can't bring myself to do it.

You did mention them and Harris was an obscenely skilled fighter.

He was!

Did you see Corro fight? I never have and I still can't believe Harris lost.

[The Great John L]

I'm tempted to mention Sugar Ray Seales and Ronnie Harris but I just can't bring myself to do it.

You did mention them and Harris was an obscenely skilled fighter.

He was!

Did you see Corro fight? I never have and I still can't believe Harris lost.

Yes I did, and Harris did lose, although it was a very physical fight with not a lot of clean punches landed. I thought for sure going in that Harris would be able to handle Corro pretty easily, but he was a difficult opponent and also a very good fighter. Corro never seemed to recover after losing to Vito, and when he returned to boxing he was nothing but a shell of the guy that beat Valdes and Harris.

[jmc617]

JOEY ARCHER quite possibly the greatest jab of all-time!

[giacomino]

Juan Domingo Roldan. In another era the hard-punching, strong-as-an-ox Argentine would have been champion, but he had the bad fortune to get title shots against Hagler, Tommy Hearns and a 31-0 prime Michael Nunn. Take away those three fights and he's 67-2 with 47 KOs

[HomicideHenry]

Charley Burley. Zale, LaMotta, Cerdan, Robinson all avoided him. Only Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Mims, Marshall took their shots at him, and nine times out of ten he was victorious.

[harrygreb]

i can safely say that if you put all these guys mentioned in previous posts
in with al tribuani - perhaps at the same time - trib would do rather well.

[My2Sense]

Charley Burley. Zale, LaMotta, Cerdan, Robinson all avoided him. Only Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Mims, Marshall took their shots at him, and nine times out of ten he was victorious.

Are you talking about Burley? Burley was collectively 1-3 against Moore, Charles, and Marshall, and from my recollection never fought Mims.