ARTHUR ABRAHAM is NOT German - He is ARMENIAN

[VanesBoxing]

I dont know why you changed his flag and nationality back to German when it was correctly Armenian before.

Just like his younger brother Alex Abraham (his is still correct: Armenian) Arthur Abraham was born in Yerevan, Armenia and is a proud ARMENIAN.

He has recently recieved his citizenship from Germany, but still has his dual citizenship with Armenia.

Citizenship does not change your nationality.

PLEASE, change his nationality back to Armenian like it was before.

This is coming from his Team and his official website..
http://www.vadder-Abraham.de

Thank you very much.

[JCS]

I wonder when Akinwande will be changed to German?

[VanesBoxing]

Why hasnt the change been made??

Do you know somethin the rest of us, including Arthur Abraham himself doesnt know??

PLEASE MAKE THE CHANGE.


Nationality: German to Armenian


ARTHUR ABRAHAM IS ARMENIAN.

[Matt]

Born in Armenia, learned to box in Germany, therefore he should be listed as a German. This is somewhat similar to the situation with the Ruelas brothers who were born in Mexico, but learned to box in the United States.

[VanesBoxing]

Born in Armenia, learned to box in Germany, therefore he should be listed as a German. This is somewhat similar to the situation with the Ruelas brothers who were born in Mexico, but learned to box in the United States.

that is by far the dumbest thing ive heard

you arnt serious are you???

it is NOT similar to anyone/anything.

ARTHUR ABRAHAM - born Avetik Abrahamyan was born in the capital of Armenia, Yerevan and lived there pretty much his entire life, including his amateur years. 23 years or so to be exact.

He moved to Germany because there is no professional boxing commission in Armenia, and so he jumpstarted his pro career in Germany.

You would have to be an ignorant FOOL, to think a World Champion with his skills could pick alll that up in just 3 years of pro boxing in Germany.

HE LEARNED HIS BOXING IN ARMENIA, under various different Great Armenian trainers.

Please dont respond with nonsense like that when you dont have a clue who you are writing about.

Thank you,
Al NAZARYAN

and please change it back to how it was before, he is loved by Germans, but he is Armenian at heart, and that will NEVER change.

[computerrank]

He applied for the German citizenship and got it some weeks ago. So he is a German citizen now - and had to drop his Armenian citizenship for this, as Germany doesn't admit multiple citizenships.

Abrahman had to take a decision.

[VanesBoxing]

He applied for the German citizenship and got it some weeks ago. So he is a German citizen now - and had to drop his Armenian citizenship for this, as Germany doesn't admit multiple citizenships.

Abrahman had to take a decision.

either way, Citizenship is NOT what decides your nationality.

Citizenship decides your permanent residence in a certain country. And it was clearly a business decision for Abraham. Had you seen his last fight with Miranda, you would have noticed that the only flags waving in the arena were ARMENIAN FLAGS(Red, Blue, Orange), I didnt see a single German flag waving for him.

Are you telling me every boxer on boxrec is listed by their citizenship when it comes to nationality??? Cuz that would be a joke.

[emile]

Given the nationality standard as I understand it, shouldn't Vanes be listed as American? Let's open another can o' worms :)

[brett]

I vote we make him Irish

[shamboo]

I vote we make him Irish

Typical smartass comment from the editors who dont seem to care that they are blantantly in violation of an international aggrement. Make this one out Abraham gets German citizenship has no german blood whatsoever but now is down as being German (BECAUSE HE HAS GERMAN CITIZENSHIP). John Duddy has IRISH CITIZENSHIP was born on the island of Ireland was trained and was funded by the Irish boxing board throughout his amateur career is entitled by international law(good friday aggrement) to see himself as Irish and Irish alone but no hes definetly British obviouslty Abraham has a "far stronger case for being german"

[VanesBoxing]

Given the nationality standard as I understand it, shouldn't Vanes be listed as American? Let's open another can o' worms :)

so you guys really do list nationality according to Citizenship???

im serious, please answer that.

If that is the way you do it, what exactly do you base that decision on??

Please explain some of this to me cuz I am having troulbe understanding the logic behind all this.

[slapbangwhallop]

Born in Armenia, learned to box in Germany, therefore he should be listed as a German. This is somewhat similar to the situation with the Ruelas brothers who were born in Mexico, but learned to box in the United States.

that is by far the dumbest thing ive heard

you arnt serious are you???

it is NOT similar to anyone/anything.

ARTHUR ABRAHAM - born Avetik Abrahamyan was born in the capital of Armenia, Yerevan and lived there pretty much his entire life, including his amateur years. 23 years or so to be exact.

He moved to Germany because there is no professional boxing commission in Armenia, and so he jumpstarted his pro career in Germany.

You would have to be an ignorant FOOL, to think a World Champion with his skills could pick alll that up in just 3 years of pro boxing in Germany.

HE LEARNED HIS BOXING IN ARMENIA, under various different Great Armenian trainers.

Please dont respond with nonsense like that when you dont have a clue who you are writing about.

Thank you,
Al NAZARYAN

and please change it back to how it was before, he is loved by Germans, but he is Armenian at heart, and that will NEVER change.

Great post!!! Change it back to Armenian - he is obviously Armenian!

[alarmakool]

I vote we make him Irish

Done and done.

[VanesBoxing]

Born in Armenia, learned to box in Germany, therefore he should be listed as a German. This is somewhat similar to the situation with the Ruelas brothers who were born in Mexico, but learned to box in the United States.

that is by far the dumbest thing ive heard

you arnt serious are you???

it is NOT similar to anyone/anything.

ARTHUR ABRAHAM - born Avetik Abrahamyan was born in the capital of Armenia, Yerevan and lived there pretty much his entire life, including his amateur years. 23 years or so to be exact.

He moved to Germany because there is no professional boxing commission in Armenia, and so he jumpstarted his pro career in Germany.

You would have to be an ignorant FOOL, to think a World Champion with his skills could pick alll that up in just 3 years of pro boxing in Germany.

HE LEARNED HIS BOXING IN ARMENIA, under various different Great Armenian trainers.

Please dont respond with nonsense like that when you dont have a clue who you are writing about.

Thank you,
Al NAZARYAN

and please change it back to how it was before, he is loved by Germans, but he is Armenian at heart, and that will NEVER change.

Great post!!! Change it back to Armenian - he is obviously Armenian!

Thank you, finally, someone that understands the meaning of nationality.

Sad thing is, 4 BoxRec Editors have responded already, and you can go through each ones response, it is merely a joke.

I expected a bit more professionalism from editors of such a useful and reputable website/database.

[emile]

Al,

I would suggest that you are assigning the same meaning to nationality and ethnicity. World-wide immigration is making nationality (as I would define it anyway) a much more fluid concept than the more old-fashioned idea of ethnicity. I know that Armenians have a very strong ethnic identity, but in the cases of Abraham and Martirosyan, nationality is more in question. From what I've read, both of them moved to their new homes before they were teenagers (Vanes at 4, is that correct?), both fought as amateurs in their new countries, and both attained citizenship. Martirosyan even fought on the USA Olympic team, so that would indicate to me that his own concept of nationality is more American than Armenian. Which is not to take anything away from the pride these fighters may have in being of ethnically Armenian.

BoxRec doesn't list Arturo Gatti or Joe Mesi as Italian, although they show pride in their ethnic backgrounds as well. There are several German boxers of Turkish ethnicity who are listed as German, etc.

[slapbangwhallop]

Al,

I would suggest that you are assigning the same meaning to nationality and ethnicity. World-wide immigration is making nationality (as I would define it anyway) a much more fluid concept than the more old-fashioned idea of ethnicity. I know that Armenians have a very strong ethnic identity, but in the cases of Abraham and Martirosyan, nationality is more in question. From what I've read, both of them moved to their new homes before they were teenagers (Vanes at 4, is that correct?), both fought as amateurs in their new countries, and both attained citizenship. Martirosyan even fought on the USA Olympic team, so that would indicate to me that his own concept of nationality is more American than Armenian. Which is not to take anything away from the pride these fighters may have in being of ethnically Armenian.

BoxRec doesn't list Arturo Gatti or Joe Mesi as Italian, although they show pride in their ethnic backgrounds as well. There are several German boxers of Turkish ethnicity who are listed as German, etc.

So on what basis to you suggest BoxRec use?

Also why is Kostya listed as Australian?

[VanesBoxing]

Al,

I would suggest that you are assigning the same meaning to nationality and ethnicity. World-wide immigration is making nationality (as I would define it anyway) a much more fluid concept than the more old-fashioned idea of ethnicity. I know that Armenians have a very strong ethnic identity, but in the cases of Abraham and Martirosyan, nationality is more in question. From what I've read, both of them moved to their new homes before they were teenagers (Vanes at 4, is that correct?), both fought as amateurs in their new countries, and both attained citizenship. Martirosyan even fought on the USA Olympic team, so that would indicate to me that his own concept of nationality is more American than Armenian. Which is not to take anything away from the pride these fighters may have in being of ethnically Armenian.

BoxRec doesn't list Arturo Gatti or Joe Mesi as Italian, although they show pride in their ethnic backgrounds as well. There are several German boxers of Turkish ethnicity who are listed as German, etc.

I understand completely, and appreciate your well thought out post. BUT, the question here is if you saw any of these fighters, on the street and asked them what nationality they are, what their first language is, what they love and feel most in their heart, that is what their nationality should be.

And believe me, if you went up to Vanes and called him American, he would be offended, Armenian American is understandalbe, do you have that choice availabe?? No.

Same for Abraham, who grew up in Armenia and has strong roots and visits back frequently to see his parents and rest of his family. I guarantee you if you stop Arthur on the street in the middle of Berlin, and ask him what he is, he will tell you ARMENIAN first and foremost, or Armenian German.

Our land, our heritage, our 2000 year old history with its struggles and triumphs has given all of us too much for us to simply forget who we are and where we came from just because we had to migrate to another country for one reason or another.

Thank you

[emile]

I understand what you're saying Al. But when someone clicks on Arthur Abraham's profile, they will see that he was born in Armenia and his Armenian name. I don't think a German flag by his name is intended as diminishment of his Armenian ancestry, but a recognition of him being an Armenian-German.

Doing it that way provides a differentiation between Abraham and say, Darchinyan, who had a long background fighting for Armenia.

So, how'd you score the Miranda fight?

[VanesBoxing]

I understand what you're saying Al. But when someone clicks on Arthur Abraham's profile, they will see that he was born in Armenia and his Armenian name. I don't think a German flag by his name is intended as diminishment of his Armenian ancestry, but a recognition of him being an Armenian-German.

Doing it that way provides a differentiation between Abraham and say, Darchinyan, who had a long background fighting for Armenia.

So, how'd you score the Miranda fight?

Well let me put it to you this way.

Alot, well most, Germans dont care either way if Arthur is listed as German as Armenian, and no matter what, Germans having the strong cultural hold they have will never accept Arthur as a true German. On the other hand, any/every Armenian you talk to will want Arthur under the Armenian flag and nothing else. Hence why im spending so much time as a person who knows AA first hand.

Just because AA was born in Armenia doesnt say much, it definitely doesnt suggest that he is Armenian because many people are born somewhere by chance when they have very little to do with the culture and ethnicity. You have it all mixed up. Birthplace always comes second to nationality, and it is your nationality that really counts, because that is whats in your heart, not what is printed on paper just because.

I dont see what you have to gain from this, and why you are so persistant to have him under the German flag when every other person here has said that he should be listed as Armenian.

Change the flag, after all that was the ONLY flag that was in the stands when Arthur fought, AND BEAT Miranda.

And that should tell you how i scored the fight. AA had home advantage, but hey, thats how it works, he showed HEART OF A LION and won a UD with a broken jaw. Thats that

[slapbangwhallop]

I understand what you're saying Al. But when someone clicks on Arthur Abraham's profile, they will see that he was born in Armenia and his Armenian name. I don't think a German flag by his name is intended as diminishment of his Armenian ancestry, but a recognition of him being an Armenian-German.

That is the biggest load of bull I have every heard. What are you basing that on?

[wouter]

Birthplace always comes second to nationality, and it is your nationality that really counts, because that is whats in your heart, not what is printed on paper just because.

Using that definition my nationality should be Nigerian if I somehow were to wake up tomorrow feeling very African.

[Max Molyneux]

either way, Citizenship is NOT what decides your nationality.

It does for Duddy fans.

I agree with that though.

[emile]

I understand what you're saying Al. But when someone clicks on Arthur Abraham's profile, they will see that he was born in Armenia and his Armenian name. I don't think a German flag by his name is intended as diminishment of his Armenian ancestry, but a recognition of him being an Armenian-German.

Doing it that way provides a differentiation between Abraham and say, Darchinyan, who had a long background fighting for Armenia.

So, how'd you score the Miranda fight?

Well let me put it to you this way.

Alot, well most, Germans dont care either way if Arthur is listed as German as Armenian, and no matter what, Germans having the strong cultural hold they have will never accept Arthur as a true German. On the other hand, any/every Armenian you talk to will want Arthur under the Armenian flag and nothing else. Hence why im spending so much time as a person who knows AA first hand.

Just because AA was born in Armenia doesnt say much, it definitely doesnt suggest that he is Armenian because many people are born somewhere by chance when they have very little to do with the culture and ethnicity. You have it all mixed up. Birthplace always comes second to nationality, and it is your nationality that really counts, because that is whats in your heart, not what is printed on paper just because.

I dont see what you have to gain from this, and why you are so persistant to have him under the German flag when every other person here has said that he should be listed as Armenian.

Change the flag, after all that was the ONLY flag that was in the stands when Arthur fought, AND BEAT Miranda.

And that should tell you how i scored the fight. AA had home advantage, but hey, thats how it works, he showed HEART OF A LION and won a UD with a broken jaw. Thats that

You're misreading who I am and what I do here. I did not change Arthur's nationality, nor am I "persistent" in determining how he should be listed. You were aggrieved that everybody was treating your question as a joke, so I gave you a serious answer. It's devil's advocate stuff, not a representation of the site policy - and I've got no stake in the question. You would have to take it up with JohnShep, as he is the editor and owner of this site, and directs editorial policy. The site policy, as I understand it, is that fighters are to be listed under the nation where they developed as a boxer. But others would know about that better than me.

If I were to be cynical about it, I would suggest that Arthur himself has done far more to denigrate his Armenian roots than any little flag on BoxRec could. He chose to renounce his Armenian citizenship for, as you put it, financial reasons. And he has chosen to fight under a pseudonym which masks his ethnic heritage, presumably for the same reason. If Germans don't care, then why does him presenting himself as German make any difference?

[VanesBoxing]

You're misreading who I am and what I do here. I did not change Arthur's nationality, nor am I "persistent" in determining how he should be listed. You were aggrieved that everybody was treating your question as a joke, so I gave you a serious answer. It's devil's advocate stuff, not a representation of the site policy - and I've got no stake in the question. You would have to take it up with JohnShep, as he is the editor and owner of this site, and directs editorial policy. The site policy, as I understand it, is that fighters are to be listed under the nation where they developed as a boxer. But others would know about that better than me.

If I were to be cynical about it, I would suggest that Arthur himself has done far more to denigrate his Armenian roots than any little flag on BoxRec could. He chose to renounce his Armenian citizenship for, as you put it, financial reasons. And he has chosen to fight under a pseudonym which masks his ethnic heritage, presumably for the same reason. If Germans don't care, then why does him presenting himself as German make any difference?

how do I talk to JohnShep, I think everyone has gone through and looked at this particular thread but him.

Funny thing is, a few months ago, I made this same request, and it was honored as Abraham's nationality went back to Armenian from German. Now all the sudden, he wins a courageos fight against Miranda, and he is German again?? WTF. Is Shep German???

Also, his younger brother - Alex Abraham, is also a pro boxer that started his pro career in Germany just like Arthur, yet Alex is still listed as Armenian :)

I also had them change Vic Darchinyan from Australian to Armenian, cuz that too was a joke. Vic represented Armenia in the 2000 Sidney Olympics and fought his whole amateur career in Armenia just like Abraham.

None of your categorizing theories make sense enough to list Arthur as German.

Please have the main editor look at all this.

I do appreciate your time and support my friend.

And dont confuse Arthur's financial responsiblity and his mix up in boxing politics (thats pro boxing for you) with his heart and the fact that he is a proud Armenian.

He has simply shortened his name to be more marketable and that move is common in alot of sports with athletes that still always admit who they are and where they come from.

[Marina]

We understand that you have strong feelings for your country. However, nationality is part of a lot of information we give about a fighter and it is not a key information.

I don't mean to insult you, but let's get your facts right:

“This is coming from his Team and his official website. ... Al NAZARYAN”
In a phone call with our fellow German editor today, Arthur Abraham states that he doesn't know any Al Nazaryan. So what name exactly is he supposed to know you under?
Abraham then goes on to say he wants to be listed as German in BoxRec. Not that that would have ever influenced our decisions, but it contradicts the base of your argument.

“has his dual citizenship with Armenia”
This is generally not possible under German law. When you were faced with that fact, you go on to change your argument:
“either way, Citizenship is NOT what decides your nationality ... it is your nationality that really counts, because that is whats in your heart, not what is printed on paper ... BUT, the question here is if you saw any of these fighters, on the street and asked them”
Shall we ask every fighter now what he wants to be and go from there? How objective would that be? Anybody could tell us anything.

He was born in “Armenia, Yerevan and lived there pretty much his entire life, including his amateur years. 23 years or so to be exact”
No. At the latest in 1997 he was boxing in Germany and won the 1997 German International Championship title. By the way, this information comes from his official website, which you claim to be part of.

“Funny thing is, a few months ago, I made this same request, and it was honored as Abraham's nationality went back to Armenian from German.”
A few months ago, the process of becoming German hadn't ended. As soon as it had and to avoid further changes, Abraham's team made the effort of faxing BoxRec the official document.

“Also, his younger brother - Alex Abraham, is also a pro boxer that started his pro career in Germany just like Arthur, yet Alex is still listed as Armenian”
Fact is he isn't German nor Armenian-German, he is Armenian with an Armenian passport. He has been boxing in Germany since 1995, but that is as far as it goes.

Let's not get into your abuse. You just don't have an argument going for you, so lets end here. You don't need an answer from John, you need to stop pushing your national issues into an international database. I wish you well.