Patterson and Ellis at Light Heavyweight

[Scypion]

This isn't about who would win at light heavyweight, prime for prime, but I think it would probably be Patterson. Anyway, I think that either one of them could have been champion at 175 lbs. if they chose to fight at that weight, and they both may have been able to hold the title for a long time.

Of course, both Floyd and Jimmy made more money at heavyweight, especially Patterson, but I believe that they both would have lived longer if they stayed at light heavyweight, maybe much longer. Floyd would not have had to fight Johansson, Liston and Ali and Ellis would not have fought Frazier, Ali, and Shavers.

Just something to think about. I wish that they had stayed at light heavy.

[Ambling Alp II]

Would have been interesting if they would have spent their entire careers at light heavy. Not sure how much trouble they would have had making 175 as they got older. However, they both probably would have done well for a while. Interestingly, Ellis barely fought at light heavyweight. He fought at middleweight a lot longer than light heavy.

[Scypion]

Would have been interesting if they would have spent their entire careers at light heavy. Not sure how much trouble they would have had making 175 as they got older. However, they both probably would have done well for a while. Interestingly, Ellis barely fought at light heavyweight. He fought at middleweight a lot longer than light heavy.

Yes, it was Jimmy's decision to fight at heavyweight.

Funny thing about those two. Patterson turned pro at light heavyweight at the age of 17 (after the 1952 Olympics). Ellis started out at middleweight at the age of 21 and stayed middleweight for a few years. Watching them fight in 1968, Ellis looked much bigger than Patterson.

[evrenb]

Both of them against Bob Foster at Light Heavyweight would have been incredible.

[Scypion]

Both of them against Bob Foster at Light Heavyweight would have been incredible.

True, both of them would have been better than anyone Foster fought.

[Scypion]

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[Scypion]

Both of them against Bob Foster at Light Heavyweight would have been incredible.

True, both of them would have been much better than anyone Foster fought at light heavyweight.

[Scypion]

Sorry about the double or triple posts. I was trying to edit my last post on this thread when I found out that I had added posts, and then tried and failed to delete the extra posts.

[gilgamesh]

I never saw any of Ellis as a Light Heavyweight, but I did see Patterson's Light Heavyweight bout with Joey Maxim. Maxim gets the decision there, but I remember thinking that it seemed like Patterson deserved it.

It's been years since I saw that fight, but I remember them running it on ESPN Classic.

[Ambling Alp II]

It was an 8-round. for some reason 1 round was missing. I gave Patterson every round that was shown. It has long been regarded as a horrible decision.

[Scypion]

I have seen Patterson's fights at light heavy against Jimmy Slade, Don Grant, and Willie Troy as well as Maxim on film. I saw his fight with Tommy "Hurricane" Jackson for the right to fight Archie Moore for the heavyweight title in 1956. Floyd weighed 178 for that fight and won despite having a broken hand for more than half the bout.

Floyd won the Olympic Gold Medal in 1952 along with just about any amateur thing he fought in that year. Jimmy Ellis just missed out on the 1960 Olympics due to losing to Willie McClure in the Olympic Trials. McClure went on the win the gold that year and dominated the middle divisions in amateur boxing in 1959 and 1960.

If not for McClure, maybe Ellis would have gone on to win a gold medal that year. Jimmy won 59 of 66 amateur fights before turning pro in 1961 and won Golden Gloves, Inter-city golden gloves, etc. He also beat some guy named Cassius Clay when he was 17.

[Scypion]

I forgot, Jimmy Ellis also won the Chicago Golden Gloves Tournament of Champions in 1961 before turning pro.

[Scypion]

So, if they both stayed at light heavy, Patterson would have had to fight Archie Moore for the title and Ellis would have had to deal with Bob Foster. Could they have done it? We know that Floyd did beat Moore for the heavyweight title in 1956. Would he have done the same at light heavy? I don't see why not. The only thing would have been getting Archie to defend against him.

As for Ellis and Foster, that might be tougher. Seeing how Foster did against heavyweights, it seems to me that Ellis could have taken Bob at light heavyweight. Again, like Patterson, he would have had to get a title shot. They could have been frozen out like Ezzard Charles was during the 40's.

[Scypion]

Could it be that a comparison of Floyd Patterson and Jimmy Ellis is called for here? Why Not?

Forget about their 1968 fight. Many thought that Patterson was robbed and Floyd was past his best anyway. Not just age but Floyd seemed to get more careful and tentative after his Liston fights. That may have cost him some decisions.

Ellis was fast, but prime Patterson was faster. I think that only Ali and Patterson were faster during Jimmy's prime years. Ellis had a better chin, but maybe Patterson's was underrated. After all, he was only knocked out by 3 fighters (Liston, Ali, and Johansson). I don't think it was any disgrace to be knocked out or stopped by those guys.

Floyd got knocked down a lot but almost always got back up. Jimmy also got knocked out by 3 guys (Frazier, Ali, and Shavers). Again, no disgrace. I think that maybe neither would have been knocked out or stopped if they had never fought heavyweight where they had to fight bigger, harder hitting fighters.

As great a fighter as I believe Patterson to have been, I think that Jimmy Ellis could have beaten anyone that Floyd beat (possible exception of Johansson. A 3 fight trilogy between Ellis and Johansson would have been interesting). So, Patterson had a better career than Ellis, but they may have been closer than people think.

[Scypion]

Jimmy Ellis went 12 rounds with Ron Lyle, but lost the decision. Ellis was 34 at the time. Could Patterson have gone 12 with Lyle? Or even beat him.

I wrote before that Ellis could beat anyone that Floyd did (possible exception of Johansson). So maybe this mythical bout would somehow help show how close in ability that Patterson and Ellis were. Maybe a prime Patterson would have beaten Lyle. Maybe not.

[Ambling Alp II]

Interesting to think about. They also each fought Quarry, with Ellis winning a close fight and Patterson losing a disputable decision and having a draw. (Patterson was a little past his prime by then.) They each won a decision over Bonavena. Patterson was past his prime and still won.

They each also won decisions over Chuvalo. Patterson-Chuvalo as a great fight btw.

Not sure how Ellis would have done against Eddie Machen, who Patterson beat easily in one of his best fights.

Guessing that Patterson would have a competitive decision had they fought in both of their primes.

[Scypion]

Interesting to think about. They also each fought Quarry, with Ellis winning a close fight and Patterson losing a disputable decision and having a draw. (Patterson was a little past his prime by then.) They each won a decision over Bonavena. Patterson was past his prime and still won.

They each also won decisions over Chuvalo. Patterson-Chuvalo as a great fight btw.

Not sure how Ellis would have done against Eddie Machen, who Patterson beat easily in one of his best fights.

Guessing that Patterson would have a competitive decision had they fought in both of their primes.

I think that prime Patterson beats prime Ellis too, but they are probably very close. Another thread had Patterson losing by KO against Ron Lyle and Jimmy Ellis went 12 rounds with Ron Lyle in Denver in 100 degree heat (Lyle is from Denver). So, advantage there with Ellis and advantage here with Patterson on Johansson (Although we really don't know what would happen in those bouts (Patterson-Lyle and Ellis-Johansson)).