Who Do You Rate Higher, Vitali Klitschko or Riddick Bowe?

[keithmoonhangover]

Who ya got? And why?

[Flump]

Interesting question. Bowe was much more pleasing on the eyer for sure, and has a signature win, whereas Vitali only has wins over, at best, B level fighters in a pretty horrible era. But he lasted a lot longer, was never dropped etc.

As a fighter, I'm going to say Bowe, he had more to his game.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Vitali came to America to fight Tyson, Vander, Bowe, or Lewie.

"Nyet" they rhapsodized in Harmony

Vitali cut short Lewies 5 remaining fight schedule to prematurely retire him the day before the WBC was due to strip Lewie for failure to fight his mandatory, Vit. The way Lewie lost all his titles that King paid him good $$$ to do.

[gilgamesh]

Bowe

His 2 wins over Holyfield are bigger than anything Vitali's got on his ledger, and numbers wise their records are comparable. Also I don't think anyone who watches them both fight would argue that Bowe was the more versatile of the two, and had a wider variety of punches in his arsenal.

Bowe's 3rd, 4th and 5th best wins are probably on par with Vitali's best honestly which I guess would be Corrie Sanders.

They'd both be more toward Number 20 than Number 10 though in all time Heavyweight rankings.

Head to head I think it would've been an extremely competitive, and entertaining fight, but that would have no bearing on how I'd rank them historically, but it is an interesting match to think about for sure. 2 of the particularly large Heavyweight World Champions known for having big power, and sturdy chins.

[Ambling Alp II]

Bowe was a much better fighter. Not remotely close. He would have handed Klitschko a one-sided beatdown had they met.

[gilgamesh]

Bowe was a much better fighter. Not remotely close. He would have handed Klitschko a one-sided beatdown had they met.

I don't think he hands him a one sided beatdown, but he definitely has the better wins.

[keithmoonhangover]

- Vitali came to America to fight Tyson, Vander, Bowe, or Lewie.

"Nyet" they rhapsodized in Harmony

Vitali cut short Lewies 5 remaining fight schedule to prematurely retire him the day before the WBC was due to strip Lewie for failure to fight his mandatory, Vit. The way Lewie lost all his titles that King paid him good $$$ to do.

Tell me more of this schedule, I'm intrigued.

[gilgamesh]

That's just something he pulled out of his ass

[Flump]

- Vitali came to America to fight Tyson, Vander, Bowe, or Lewie.

"Nyet" they rhapsodized in Harmony

Vitali cut short Lewies 5 remaining fight schedule to prematurely retire him the day before the WBC was due to strip Lewie for failure to fight his mandatory, Vit. The way Lewie lost all his titles that King paid him good $$$ to do.

The witless massacre of the English language in this post is er....witless.

Bowe was retired by the time Vitali was having his 4th pro fight. Roundabout the time a shot Holyfield was engaging in a trilogy with John Ruiz, Vitali was getting stopped by Chris Byrd. Tyson? Who cares by then. And "Lewie" had weathered Vital's assault and turned the rapidly tiring Vitali's face into a raw hamburger, TKO'ing him, and leaving him 0-2 against his best opponents.

But cheers anyway.

[Jeff_lacy_ko]

Vitali 0-2 against his best opponents

Bowe 2-1

[pound per pound]

Vitali K rates a little higher.

https://ibroresearch.com/wp-content/upl ... t-2019.pdf

[Ambling Alp II]

After Ali and Louis, it kind of looks like names were thrown in a hat and then pulled out and a fighter was ranked in that order.

[gilgamesh]

So a final, and very detailed breakdown of who I got rated higher, and why after finally going through all of their fights (or in Bowe's case as many as I could find)

As we know we have the points system here in the ratings on Boxrec, but we don't really know the rhyme or reason for who has what points or why for certain wins right? Well I will explain in great detail the system I've concocted here, and how I've arrived at the points I have.

I will rate the level of opposition the fighters faced on a level from 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = Bum (A guy with a losing record, or a mediocre record while on an extensive losing streak)
1 = A guy with more wins than losses, but usually can't get it done at a particularly high level
2 = A fringe contender. Think Top 25-Top 15ish kinda guy
3 = A Ranked Contender or Former Champion who wasn't considered a major titleholder
4 = A Highly Ranked Contender or still credible Former Champion
5 = A Hall of Famer, or Reigning Champion...generally in their prime.

I will rate the level of performance on a scale of 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = F*CKING SUCKED (This rating is saved for truly abysmal fights. Think Byrd vs Davarryl Williamson, or Fury vs Wlad)
1 = Dud (This rating is for a fight that provided maybe 1 or 2 interesting moments in an otherwise forgetable bout)
2 = Kinda Boring (This rating is for fights that just kinda become one sided, and clinical with neither fighter pressing)
3 = Good Fight (A kinda standard fight. Not the most memorable thing in the world, but nothing embarassing either)
4 = Very Good Fight (A competitive bout with some major highlight reel moments, but falls short of the standard set by 5)
5 = Great Fight or Great Performance (Either a Fight of the Year candidate or otherwise very memorable action bout, or a great, and exciting victory with an emphatic finish.)

And finally we come to Bonuses Award for Championship wins or Deductions taken from Losses, which goes like this.

Losses
Split or Majority Decision Losses = -5 points
Unanimous Decision Losses = -10
KO/DQ losses = -20, or -30 depending on the circumstance (An extra 10 is deducted for a particularly one sided or otherwise embarrassing defeat)

Championship wins
Winning 1 Miscellaneous Alphabet Belt or Defending It = +5 points
Winning a Unified Championship Bout or Defending a Unified Title = +10 points
A Gold Star Win (A Great win over a Great Fighter in a Championship Bout) = 30 Points
An All Time Platinum Win (Beating a Hall of Fame Fighter either in his prime or while overcoming some severe disadvantage) = +50 points

Now without further ado, this is how all that applies to the career's of Vitali Klitschko and Riddick Bowe respectively.

[gilgamesh]

Riddick Bowe has a total of 325 points under my system (300 of which come in fights there's video of)

Vitali Klitschko has a total of 262

Bowe has what I would consider to be 12 quality wins (A win over an opponent with a rating of 3 or better)

Vitali has what I would consider to be 4 quality wins

Bowe has 70 bonus points for having an All Time Platinum win over Holyfield in their 1st bout, and a Non Title Gold Star win in their 3rd bout.

Vitali Klitschko has no Gold star wins to his credit. He gets 75 bonus points total for all of his title bouts put together. While Bowe gets 70 Bonus points for the 2 Holyfield wins alone.

Bowe then gets an additional 30 points for his other title victories.

The rest of their points come against sub-par competition, and I didn't even add in the extra points that I could've from the fights I couldn't find footage of for Bowe.

So there you have it. Any questions you'd like to ask or comments you'd want to raise about how I arrived where I did that I didn't already explain I'd be happy to discuss.

[Ezzard]

Riddick Bowe has a total of 325 points under my system (300 of which come in fights there's video of)

Vitali Klitschko has a total of 262

Bowe has what I would consider to be 12 quality wins (A win over an opponent with a rating of 3 or better)

Vitali has what I would consider to be 4 quality wins

Bowe has 70 bonus points for having an All Time Platinum win over Holyfield in their 1st bout, and a Non Title Gold Star win in their 3rd bout.

Vitali Klitschko has no Gold star wins to his credit. He gets 75 bonus points total for all of his title bouts put together. While Bowe gets 70 Bonus points for the 2 Holyfield wins alone.

Bowe then gets an additional 30 points for his other title victories.

The rest of their points come against sub-par competition, and I didn't even add in the extra points that I could've from the fights I couldn't find footage of for Bowe.

So there you have it. Any questions you'd like to ask or comments you'd want to raise about how I arrived where I did that I didn't already explain I'd be happy to discuss.

Very interesting system you've devised. All statistical models are wrong but some are useful, as the saying goes...

A big issue you have are Bowe's Golota fights. I mean yes, he won them, but... nobody sees them as adding to Bowe's legacy. He seemed to be heading for a defeat in both fights. And Golota then went onto fight Lennox Lewis right after, as if the boxing world cared more for Golota than Bowe once the dust was settled.

Then VK's Byrd loss. If the fight had been rematched VK would have been a heavy favourite, and rightly so.

But... I am not in any way making a comment on the Bowe-Vitali debate, I am just addressing your excellent attempt at a model. There are too many emotional people here when the K brothers get mentioned, and I don't want to debate with the pitchfork brigade.

[gilgamesh]

That's exactly what I was going for. Something that would take your emotions out of it. Something that would simply take the fights for what they are, and leave the scores to be what they are.

I'm sure there would be many times that you'd feel that a guy with a lower score was a better fighter or would kick the ass of a guy with a higher score, but ya know what? He didn't have a better career, and the score shows it.

Also in an effort for equality across the board. Even if it's a weak or former champion that people will say in hindsight was "shot" I'll still often regard them as a quality opponent in the fighters overall score because ultimately Boxing comes full circle. One day you're the young man beating up the former old Champions, and one day you're the Former Old Champion getting beat up by the young man. It all comes out in the wash. Everyone has their bumps in the road, either due to inexperience when they're young or due to faded as they get old. Almost nobody escapes the sport without a loss, and the ones that do you can count with one hand.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

That's just something he pulled out of his ass

- Nah, not really.

After Tyson, Lenny had a lucrative Tyson Rematch lined up that started with Tyson on the undercard of Lenny/Kirk Johnson, but Tyson didn't like being the undercard and removed himself and was replaced on 3 weeks notice with Vitali who had just won his 3rd lawsuit against Lenny. Then Johnson "Mysteriously" hurt his titty, so Lenny gave Vitali an upgrade from a 10 rd fight to a 12 rd Title Fight on 2 weeks notice.

Lenny got beat up purt fair, but Manny pulls out the loose tape caper that opened a cut on the side of his left eye that Lenny kept targeting in between rubbing his rasta links into the cut. The rest is sordid Lenny history who had been stripped of every belt that he sold to Dking save the WBC. While he didn't throw the WBC in the trash like Bowe did, he almost replicated Bowe's strippage of every title he ever owned by retiring the day before WBC was due to strip him.

So Vit got his WBC title fight with the recovered Kirk Johnson and the rest undisputed recorded history including abandoning his lucrative Tyson rematch as one of the 5 fights left on his schedule.

It's been a while for you guys, but I was all over that fight that was replayed constantly until HBO could zero in on when and how the cut happened.

Now, I was something of a Lewis fan back then, but that was a purt fair shyte pile of bizness he pulled out of his a$$, so now the Kbros still rule thru Usyk, but if you yahoos can wait a bit longer, even Usyk will be gone after his next fight, so you all can find another disagreeable mug to hug...

[gilgamesh]

Oh so you're one of them clowns who says Lennox cheated when he opened up a cut on Vitali with clean punches?

[Flump]

Oh so you're one of them clowns who says Lennox cheated when he opened up a cut on Vitali with clean punches?

It's a pity that the fight didn't go a couple more rounds so that Lewis could have just knocked him out, would save on this revisionist nonsense. But it doesn't really matter, Lewis won the fight anyway, and that is indisputable.

[keithmoonhangover]

Oh so you're one of them clowns who says Lennox cheated when he opened up a cut on Vitali with clean punches?

That fight proved that Lennox could take a really good shot - apart from the two he didn't see coming.

[gilgamesh]

Oh so you're one of them clowns who says Lennox cheated when he opened up a cut on Vitali with clean punches?

That fight proved that Lennox could take a really good shot - apart from the two he didn't see coming.

Yeah, and the McCall stoppage was a touch early too. He was definitely hurt, but he may have been able to get through that if he'd been allowed to try. We'll never know on that one.

[keithmoonhangover]

Oh so you're one of them clowns who says Lennox cheated when he opened up a cut on Vitali with clean punches?

That fight proved that Lennox could take a really good shot - apart from the two he didn't see coming.

Yeah, and the McCall stoppage was a touch early too. He was definitely hurt, but he may have been able to get through that if he'd been allowed to try. We'll never know on that one.

I saw a guy get knocked down on a US show a few months and before he got up he shouted at the ref, "I'm OK. I want to continue." Then he got up at eight. Smart, especially if you're the away fighter. I know not everyone is in a position to do that.

On the McCall stoppage, at the count of ten, Lewis had his hands up, but wasn't in a position to defend himself IMO. A lot of refs would have given him some time to prove himself and that's where human error comes in. At the time, I thought it was a terrible stoppage, now I think it's justifiable. By the letter of the law, it was the right thing to do, but common sense says give him more time. One thing I'm absolutely certain about, is if the ref wiped his gloves and waved it back on, Lewis would have been back on the floor very quickly.

[gilgamesh]

That fight proved that Lennox could take a really good shot - apart from the two he didn't see coming.

Yeah, and the McCall stoppage was a touch early too. He was definitely hurt, but he may have been able to get through that if he'd been allowed to try. We'll never know on that one.

I saw a guy get knocked down on a US show a few months and before he got up he shouted at the ref, "I'm OK. I want to continue." Then he got up at eight. Smart, especially if you're the away fighter. I know not everyone is in a position to do that.

On the McCall stoppage, at the count of ten, Lewis had his hands up, but wasn't in a position to defend himself IMO. A lot of refs would have given him some time to prove himself and that's where human error comes in. At the time, I thought it was a terrible stoppage, now I think it's justifiable. By the letter of the law, it was the right thing to do, but common sense says give him more time. One thing I'm absolutely certain about, is if the ref wiped his gloves and waved it back on, Lewis would have been back on the floor very quickly.

I think you're probably right for the record.

The rule as I understand it is that aside from being up at the count of 10, you also need to be up, and ready to continue at 10 right? And you are correct that even though Lewis got up at 9 or so against McCall, he still got up very much on unsteady legs.

[keithmoonhangover]

Yeah, and the McCall stoppage was a touch early too. He was definitely hurt, but he may have been able to get through that if he'd been allowed to try. We'll never know on that one.

I saw a guy get knocked down on a US show a few months and before he got up he shouted at the ref, "I'm OK. I want to continue." Then he got up at eight. Smart, especially if you're the away fighter. I know not everyone is in a position to do that.

On the McCall stoppage, at the count of ten, Lewis had his hands up, but wasn't in a position to defend himself IMO. A lot of refs would have given him some time to prove himself and that's where human error comes in. At the time, I thought it was a terrible stoppage, now I think it's justifiable. By the letter of the law, it was the right thing to do, but common sense says give him more time. One thing I'm absolutely certain about, is if the ref wiped his gloves and waved it back on, Lewis would have been back on the floor very quickly.

I think you're probably right for the record.

The rule as I understand it is that aside from being up at the count of 10, you also need to be up, and ready to continue at 10 right? And you are correct that even though Lewis got up at 9 or so against McCall, he still got up very much on unsteady legs.

It didn't help his cause when he unsteadily leaned into the ref out the count of nine.

[DrDuke]

Bowe. His resume has greater scalps. He was a better fighter overall.