harrygreb wrote:charlie was world champ although his route to it was terry lawless at his craftiest.
do you remember how long it took before magri got anywhere near a decent opponent? my godfathers, talk about cotton wool!!
but, he made it and therefore who can argue. he had talent did magri but, as you say, not a good beard and i suppose would struggle to scrape in to a brit top 10 let alone 5. however, i like him and i have enjoyed a drink at "the victoria" on a few occasions. cheers!
Certainly one of the most exciting world champs we've ever had was Charlie. Matching him became a nightmare on his title run, because Duff & co had to pluck obscure flyweights from the depths of Mexico, and before the internet, no one really knew how good, or bad, they were.
Boxing News were calling for Magri's retirement for years, then he went and won the world title, which left BN looking a bit daft!
harrygreb wrote:charlie was world champ although his route to it was terry lawless at his craftiest.
do you remember how long it took before magri got anywhere near a decent opponent? my godfathers, talk about cotton wool!!
but, he made it and therefore who can argue. he had talent did magri but, as you say, not a good beard and i suppose would struggle to scrape in to a brit top 10 let alone 5. however, i like him and i have enjoyed a drink at "the victoria" on a few occasions. cheers!
I wouldn't say he was wrapped in cotton wool, Charlie won the british title in his 3rd fight, he won by KO in 7 rounds, but he could have ended up having to go the 15 round distance, can you imagine anyone doing that nowadays in their 3rd fight.
In his 12 fight he won the Euro title from Franco Udella who was a good champion at that level.
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Naseem Hamed
3. John Conteh
4. Lloyd Honeyghan
5. Chris Eubank
6. Johnny Nelson
7. Nigel Benn
8. Maurice Hope
9. Barry McGuigan
10. Jim Watt
11. Alan Minter
12. Herol Graham
13. Dave McAuley
14. Dennis Andres
15. Carl Thompson
16. Steve Robinson
17. Kirkland Laing
18. Duke Mckenzie
19. Frank Bruno
20. Terry Marsh
21. Colin Jones
22. Paul Hodkinson
23. Tony Sibson
24. Pat Cowdell
25. Richie Woodall
26. Charlie Magri
27. Paul Ingle
28. Robin Reid
29. Howard Eastman
30. Shea Neary
topper123 wrote:1. Lennox Lewis
2. Naseem Hamed
3. John Conteh
4. Lloyd Honeyghan
5. Chris Eubank
6. Johnny Nelson
7. Nigel Benn
8. Maurice Hope
9. Barry McGuigan
10. Jim Watt
11. Alan Minter
12. Herol Graham
13. Dave McAuley
14. Dennis Andres
15. Carl Thompson
16. Steve Robinson
17. Kirkland Laing
18. Duke Mckenzie
19. Frank Bruno
20. Terry Marsh
21. Colin Jones
22. Paul Hodkinson
23. Tony Sibson
24. Pat Cowdell
25. Richie Woodall
26. Charlie Magri
27. Paul Ingle
28. Robin Reid
29. Howard Eastman
30. Shea Neary
I'm now waiting to get ripped to shreads.
Not a lot wrong with that Topper, just got Naz and Nelson too high IMO.
what do we make of bruno?
achieved world champ status whilst never really being a true world beater.
must take credit for clearing up the british scene and for making the most of his few assets.
harrygreb wrote:what do we make of bruno?
achieved world champ status whilst never really being a true world beater.
must take credit for clearing up the british scene and for making the most of his few assets.
Clearing up the British scene? Practically as famous as his world title win is the fact that Bruno never fought for the British or Commonwealth titles.
harrygreb wrote:what do we make of bruno?
achieved world champ status whilst never really being a true world beater.
must take credit for clearing up the british scene and for making the most of his few assets.
Clearing up the British scene? Practically as famous as his world title win is the fact that Bruno never fought for the British or Commonwealth titles.
He avoided those potential banana skin fights.
Bruno shouldn't be near a P4P list.
i dont think bruno`s handlers thought there were any potential banana skins for big frank in the british scene. i seem to remember the early concensus about frank was we`ve got something special here.
i think bruno`s handlers probably had a lot of other british title standard heavy`s under their wing and thought it prudent not to put them in with frank.
they thought frank was destined for better things so it suited their agenda to tell the public the jewel in their crown was aiming for the world title and was not getting sidelined with domestic rivalries, it also saved the other heavy`s from getting sparked out cold but gave them a relatively high profile title to fight over.
for all his limitations at the very highest level frank was absolutely brutal against average opposition. probably one of the best heavyweights we`ve ever had in that respect.
frank's power alone puts him in with the best heavies from these shores.
mason wouldnt have troubled him unduly - his lack of stamina was even worse than franks - and if a guy didnt fold after 3 or 4 rounds gary would start to worry.
derek williams is a bit of a blind spot for me so i wont comment on his chances against bruno.
but what i meant about "clearing up the british scene" was that brunos status as a world contender made heavyweight boxing over here at the very least respectable. poor choice of phrase i admit.
shoutout2u wrote:true, there are faults with all those big names Naz fought, i.e. Robinson wasn't equipped to beat movers, Bungu was really fighting on fumes compared to his prime, etc etc. However, they were mostly classy fighters & it would be easy to get 'found out' before getting to Barrera.
Barrera just fought a perfect fight - that no one expected him to do - & Naz had long abandoned the skills that had got him to the top.
I think the Marquez from Medina onward is too alert a counter puncher and his combinations would take care of the Alicea-to-MAB version of Naz. But I think he needed the Norwood experience to improve. JMM was very off balance in that one.
I think it really depends on how you apply the word 'exposed' - exposed at the very highest level definitely.
as with your countryman taki, with whom i have also had many knockdown, drag-out debates over the years, i see myself finding an increasing amount of common ground on various topics with you and a growing respect for your overall knowledge of the fight game...
i agree with most of your take above & had not considered the learning experience that JMM received in the norwood bout, tho i still believe he was shafted (primarily by overrated ref joe cortez, who has failed to live up to his lofty reputation on numerous notable occasions---freitas-casamayor, ruiz-holyfield being other examples)...
the lone caveat re: your above response is that barrera also appeared to be past his prime and that was the primary reason he was carefully selected for hamed's "career-defining fight"...
1. barrera had already been stopped by a fighter with similar speed but much less power than hamed---junior jones, who also won the rematch against an overly cautious barrera still burdened by the baggage of their 1st bout!!
2. the 1st jones loss took enuf of a mental toll on barrera that he significantly dropped the level of his competition after the jones rematch, all the way until the 1st morales fight...
3. while the 1st morales fight clearly showed MAB had managed to put the after-effects of the jones fights behind him, it took a tremendous physical toll on both men (that just 13 months before barrera-hamed)!! in barrera's case he looked VERY vulnerable against very ordinary venezuelan balbuena and while his tko win over faded jesus salud looked good on its surface, it came against a 37-year-old who had not had a significant win in 4 full years (and fell even farther afterwards)...
4. clearly hamed's people expected the battle-weary, one-dimensional barrera that traded bombs (and paid the price) with jones (1st time) & morales, but marco had clearly developed another aspect to his game by then (BEHIND THE SCENES in training)---one which has served him quite well since then, most notably in the recent juarez rematch!!
would you agree that hamed might have been better-advised to not jump to pro ranks at age 18 without building a stronger foundation of essential boxing skills as an amateur?
I think thats a very good anlalysis but disagree with the last point. Staying in the amms would not have helped Hamed at all. In fact training harder, maintaining and improving on his 1995 form (which was his peak) would have made Hamed-Barrera very competitive. Also to the people who maintain MAB would always beat Hamed, the pre-Jones MAB who was hell bent on engaging would probably have been ko'd.
Just watched it recently, Barrera fought a sublime counterpunching fight, and Hamed would stupidly walk forwald looking to land 1 big shot, if Hamed had stood on his back foot and waited for Barrera to so something it would have been more successfull, albeit a boring strategy.
i'll take your word for it that hamed's problem was NOT leaving the amateurs too early, since you obviously have seen more of his amateur & early pro fights than i have!! i guess we've all learned something from this thread and that's good because being teachable can only help someone improve WHATEVER it is they do...too bad for naz that he wasnt teachable in his chosen craft!![/quote]Brendan Ingle fighters didn't always have good experiences in the amateurs. There was a lot of prejudice against him for encouraging a switch hitting, non traditional style. Plus, he made the boxing authorities' blood boil by allowing amateurs to train with pros. So there was a lot of hostility toward Ingle and his amateur boxers, apparently causing a few robbery decisions, & I've read a lot of these guys could wait to get out of the amateur ranks.
topper123 wrote:1. Lennox Lewis
2. Naseem Hamed
3. John Conteh
4. Lloyd Honeyghan
5. Chris Eubank
6. Johnny Nelson
7. Nigel Benn
8. Maurice Hope
9. Barry McGuigan
10. Jim Watt
11. Alan Minter
12. Herol Graham
13. Dave McAuley
14. Dennis Andres
15. Carl Thompson
16. Steve Robinson
17. Kirkland Laing
18. Duke Mckenzie
19. Frank Bruno
20. Terry Marsh
21. Colin Jones
22. Paul Hodkinson
23. Tony Sibson
24. Pat Cowdell
25. Richie Woodall
26. Charlie Magri
27. Paul Ingle
28. Robin Reid
29. Howard Eastman
30. Shea Neary
I'm now waiting to get ripped to shreads.
Good list, I'd include Dave Boy Green, not the most talented fighter but achieved more than Eastman.
just a thought, if we can consider cornelius boza edwards a british fighter then he could well replace herol graham in my list of 5. took bobby chacon to a decision, same with rocky lockridge (who KOED floyd mayweather snr). did well against arguello. won the super feather title and defended it for a decent spell. had bags of talent, speed and heart, could knock a man out with either hand. very stylish. i liked him, but he was a funny kind of bloke. we never really took to him on these shores. but if anybody thinks i'm overrating cornelius please let me know.
what do you think? andymac?
topper123 wrote:1. Lennox Lewis
2. Naseem Hamed
3. John Conteh
4. Lloyd Honeyghan
5. Chris Eubank
6. Johnny Nelson
7. Nigel Benn
8. Maurice Hope
9. Barry McGuigan
10. Jim Watt
11. Alan Minter
12. Herol Graham
13. Dave McAuley
14. Dennis Andres
15. Carl Thompson
16. Steve Robinson
17. Kirkland Laing
18. Duke Mckenzie
19. Frank Bruno
20. Terry Marsh
21. Colin Jones
22. Paul Hodkinson
23. Tony Sibson
24. Pat Cowdell
25. Richie Woodall
26. Charlie Magri
27. Paul Ingle
28. Robin Reid
29. Howard Eastman
30. Shea Neary
I'm now waiting to get ripped to shreads.
Think I would definately oust Neary for Scott Harrison.
I'd also be considering Clinton Woods also.
Although there are some damn good fighters ahead of him, I just think 16 is a little low for Steve Robinson.
wildwaylon wrote:Todays, Calzaghe top and Hatton,Scott Harrison, Woods and Haye/Enzo in joint 5th in that order
IMO you can't rate Calzaghhe higher than Hatton,until he beats a fighter anywhere near as good as Tszyu(who is a hall of famer guarenteed)or until Hatton loses.
What about the rest of Calzaghe's resume? One swallow doth not a summer make, and the rest of Hatton's resume is pretty poor. Tackie and Vince Phillips were his best wins prior to Tszyu, and Maussa and Collazo are hardly future hall of famers.
Calzaghe for me has done more over a longer period. He has never beaten a future hall of famer, (unless Lacy or Eubank make it in), but he's still beaten some world class fighters, and been at the top of his division for a long time now. He also has to get Kudos for remaining unbeaten for so long.
jamesmcdonnell wrote:What about the rest of Calzaghe's resume? One swallow doth not a summer make, and the rest of Hatton's resume is pretty poor. Tackie and Vince Phillips were his best wins prior to Tszyu, and Maussa and Collazo are hardly future hall of famers.
Calzaghe for me has done more over a longer period. He has never beaten a future hall of famer, (unless Lacy or Eubank make it in), but he's still beaten some world class fighters, and been at the top of his division for a long time now. He also has to get Kudos for remaining unbeaten for so long.
Yes how could we forget Boza. Brought to the UK from Uganda( along with John Mugabi) but trained here under George Francis and represented the UK when taking on the world's best.
He was the Arturo Gatti of the 80's - took part in some amazing wars with the likes of Chacon and Limon.
I remember when went to LA to take on Bazooka Limon. It was just after Johnny Owen had tragically lost his life in his fight with Pintor.
Limon made the unbelievably ignorant comment to Boza at the pre fight press conf: "You know what Mexicans do to British fighters...."
Boza then showed nice guys finish first by taking the Mexican's title with a 15 round beating.
