Holyfield V Usyk

[Ezzard]

I think Usyk would beat all of Holyfield's opposition. And Holy would beat all of Usyk's opposition.

Lewis vs Usyk is quite intriguing.

Lewis could win for sure. I guess what I meant was Usyk beats everyone Holyfield beat. I'd stand by that. I can see that Lewis could get to Usyk. Not saying I'd bet on him but I can see it.

[gilgamesh]

I think Usyk would beat all of Holyfield's opposition. And Holy would beat all of Usyk's opposition.

Lewis vs Usyk is quite intriguing.

Lewis could win for sure. I guess what I meant was Usyk beats everyone Holyfield beat. I'd stand by that. I can see that Lewis could get to Usyk. Not saying I'd bet on him but I can see it.

I'd love to know what a match between Mairis Breidis and Dwight Muhammad Qawi at Cruiserweight would've looked like. I feel like that would've been an excellent slugfest for sure.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think Usyk would beat all of Holyfield's opposition. And Holy would beat all of Usyk's opposition.

Lewis vs Usyk is quite intriguing.

Lewis could win for sure. I guess what I meant was Usyk beats everyone Holyfield beat. I'd stand by that. I can see that Lewis could get to Usyk. Not saying I'd bet on him but I can see it.

Usyk would beat Tyson and Bowe? The guy had way too much trouble with Fury and Joshua.
At cruiser he would not have beat Qawi from the first fight.

[gilgamesh]

Lewis vs Usyk is quite intriguing.

Lewis could win for sure. I guess what I meant was Usyk beats everyone Holyfield beat. I'd stand by that. I can see that Lewis could get to Usyk. Not saying I'd bet on him but I can see it.

Usyk would beat Tyson and Bowe? The guy had way too much trouble with Fury and Joshua.
At cruiser he would not have beat Qawi from the first fight.

Usyk would beat 1996 and 1997 Mike Tyson I believe, yes. I don't think he could've beaten Riddick Bowe. I think he could've beaten Qawi. Usyk vs Michael Moorer is interesting to ponder since he hasn't really faced an opponent of that type as a Heavyweight.

I think Holyfield would beat AJ and Tyson Fury. I think his victory is a certainty against Joshua, and a strong likelihood against Fury.

I think Holyfield is faster and stronger than Usyk at his best. I think Usyk has a higher boxing IQ than Holyfield, and a better ability to adjust.

[Ambling Alp II]

There is no way that Usyk would have beaten Tyson in 1996. In the rematch, Tyson quit after he couldn't get a quick knockout, So who knows. No way does Usyk beat Bowe who was light years better than Joshua and Fury.

Usyk doesn't have a better ability to adjust. Holyfield could box or fight toe-toe and did. Usually in the same fight.

We can cherry pick anyone's best wins or bad performances and/or losses.

But so far Usyk has four supposedly big fights. You would expect a great fighter to score at least a couple of knockouts. At most, one off night and a competitive fight.
Usyk has zero ko's in the four fights.
Just one knockdown.
And he is not winning 12-0 or 11-1 decisions either.
So far, he simply has not proven to be ranked anywhere near the great heavyweights.

[gilgamesh]

There is no way that Usyk would have beaten Tyson in 1996. In the rematch, Tyson quit after he couldn't get a quick knockout, So who knows. No way does Usyk beat Bowe who was light years better than Joshua and Fury.

Usyk doesn't have a better ability to adjust. Holyfield could box or fight toe-toe and did. Usually in the same fight.

We can cherry pick anyone's best wins or bad performances and/or losses.

But so far Usyk has four supposedly big fights. You would expect a great fighter to score at least a couple of knockouts. At most, one off night and a competitive fight.
Usyk has zero ko's in the four fights.
Just one knockdown.
And he is not winning 12-0 or 11-1 decisions either.
So far, he simply has not proven to be ranked anywhere near the great heavyweights.

He has 4 Gold Star wins. He has more big fights than that.

When I crunch all the info on their careers Holyfield finishes ahead of Usyk as a Cruiserweight or Heavyweight. The gap is wider at Heavyweight, but if Usyk racks up a few more title defenses and retires unbeaten it could narrow it.

I do think Usyk could beat 1996 Tyson, but it's not a certainty.

As of this moment. In 24 fights, Usyk has never been knocked down.

[Ambling Alp II]

Gold Star Wins? Wow, how impressive.

He has yet to have a heavyweight fight that shows he is a great heavyweight. Not one. He should have rolled over those guys and he didn't. 0 for 4.
Has not been knocked down in 24 fights? 24 fights in his entire career. How impressive.

[gilgamesh]

Gold Star Wins? Wow, how impressive.

He has yet to have a heavyweight fight that shows he is a great heavyweight. Not one. He should have rolled over those guys and he didn't. 0 for 4.
Has not been knocked down in 24 fights? 24 fights in his entire career. How impressive.

I'm a Sumo fan so I like the terminology of "Gold Star victories"

I've given Holyfield more credit than Usyk in this thread as a Cruiserweight and a Heavyweight. You feel that Usyk should have no credit at all or something? I'm not sure what you're going for here.

However since you want to sarcastically shoot down that Usyk has never been down in 24 fights. I would like to point out that in 6 Heavyweight Championship fights he has never been down either while Holyfield had been down 3 times in his first 5 Heavyweight Championship fights.

[gilgamesh]

Big the guy you believe to be better up. Don't cut the man you believe to be lesser down. They're both Great Champions. They both deserve respect.

[Ambling Alp II]

Big the guy you believe to be better up. Don't cut the man you believe to be lesser down. They're both Great Champions. They both deserve respect.

Have you been drinking?

[gilgamesh]

Big the guy you believe to be better up. Don't cut the man you believe to be lesser down. They're both Great Champions. They both deserve respect.

Have you been drinking?

Today? No.

Yesterday on the other hand. I was quite intoxicated

[Ezzard]

Lewis vs Usyk is quite intriguing.

Lewis could win for sure. I guess what I meant was Usyk beats everyone Holyfield beat. I'd stand by that. I can see that Lewis could get to Usyk. Not saying I'd bet on him but I can see it.

I'd love to know what a match between Mairis Breidis and Dwight Muhammad Qawi at Cruiserweight would've looked like. I feel like that would've been an excellent slugfest for sure.

A close fight for sure. Despite Mairis's big advanatge in size I still like Qawi to nick a tight decision especially if the fight is in USA. Same day weigh-ins mean that Qawi would have likely fight at 168 in his early career, maybe even 160 at a push.

[Ezzard]

Lewis could win for sure. I guess what I meant was Usyk beats everyone Holyfield beat. I'd stand by that. I can see that Lewis could get to Usyk. Not saying I'd bet on him but I can see it.

Usyk would beat Tyson and Bowe? The guy had way too much trouble with Fury and Joshua.
At cruiser he would not have beat Qawi from the first fight.

Usyk would beat 1996 and 1997 Mike Tyson I believe, yes. I don't think he could've beaten Riddick Bowe. I think he could've beaten Qawi. Usyk vs Michael Moorer is interesting to ponder since he hasn't really faced an opponent of that type as a Heavyweight.

I think Holyfield would beat AJ and Tyson Fury. I think his victory is a certainty against Joshua, and a strong likelihood against Fury.

I think Holyfield is faster and stronger than Usyk at his best. I think Usyk has a higher boxing IQ than Holyfield, and a better ability to adjust.

A lot of knowlegeable posters here are big on Bowe. Early on I thought he looked the better of the Bowe-Lewis-Holy trinity. But by the end of his career he was clearly number 3, at least for me. He often fought the wrong fight. I don't see how he beats a wizard like Usyk.

[Ambling Alp II]

Why couldn't the Wizard beat Fury and Joshua more a lot more connivingly than he did? They are nowhere near the level of Bowe.

[DrDuke]

There is no way that Usyk would have beaten Tyson in 1996.

[Taansend]

I think Usyk would beat all of Holyfield's opposition. And Holy would beat all of Usyk's opposition.

Lewis vs Usyk is quite intriguing.

If Lewis was focused he wins but he did have a habit of overlooking fighters.

Well, when I say habit, it happened twice, but you know what I mean.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Evan Field 200lb career as Hvy is 26-10-2.

Usyk 200lb pro career is 30-0, 17 KO...

Got some really aulde mossbacks here asking too much how Field Field would've done.

K2 Promotions anti Klitschko idiocy is strong here...

[Ezzard]

- Evan Field 200lb career as Hvy is 26-10-2.

Usyk 200lb pro career is 30-0, 17 KO...

Got some really aulde mossbacks here asking too much how Field Field would've done.

K2 Promotions anti Klitschko idiocy is strong here...

Hi friend... I mean we all have our heroes and villains but the disconnect has become absurd.

[gilgamesh]

Why couldn't the Wizard beat Fury and Joshua more a lot more connivingly than he did? They are nowhere near the level of Bowe.

He beat Joshua pretty f*cking clearly in their 1st bout. 2nd fight was closer, but he still edged it. Same with Tyson Fury.

Tyson Fury isn't all that terribly far behind Bowe. If he got 2 to 3 more decent wins while not taking any L's he'd be right near Bowe.

If you take Usyk's career as a whole Cruiserweight and Heavyweight, he has surpassed Bowe already.

[Ambling Alp II]

the first fight was even for 8 rounds. You could even have Joshua ahead at that point. Then he got tired and Usyk won the last four rounds. You would expect a great fighter to win a lot more convincingly against someone as limited as Joshua.
Again nobody is perfect. But in his biggest four fights, Usyk was 0 for 4 in showing that he was great.

Fury was not anywhere remotely as good as Bowe. There are virtually dozens of heavyweights better than Fury but not as good as Bowe.
Bowe was better than Fury at virtually every part of the sport.

Fury's biggest win over Wilder. A guy with zero ability except for a big punch. And Fury could only dominate him once out of three times and had to have the judges bail him out for a draw in the first fight. A fight in which he did virtually nothing.

How in the world can anyone watch the Bowe-Holyfield fights and the Fury-Wilder fights and think Fury was remotely near Bowe?

[gilgamesh]

the first fight was even for 8 rounds. You could even have Joshua ahead at that point. Then he got tired and Usyk won the last four rounds. You would expect a great fighter to win a lot more convincingly against someone as limited as Joshua.
Again nobody is perfect. But in his biggest four fights, Usyk was 0 for 4 in showing that he was great.

Fury was not anywhere remotely as good as Bowe. There are virtually dozens of heavyweights better than Fury but not as good as Bowe.
Bowe was better than Fury at virtually every part of the sport.

Fury's biggest win over Wilder. A guy with zero ability except for a big punch. And Fury could only dominate him once out of three times and had to have the judges bail him out for a draw in the first fight. A fight in which he did virtually nothing.

How in the world can anyone watch the Bowe-Holyfield fights and the Fury-Wilder fights and think Fury was remotely near Bowe?

Only in your world is going 4-0 against the best Heavyweights of his era a negative. I don't need to defend Usyk's victories any further they speak for themselves.

As for Fury not being anywhere remotely as good as Bowe, I'd tend to agree, but as far as their records show he's really not far behind Bowe. Bowe's 2 tremendous wins in tremendous battles against Holyfield help him a lot. It also helps him a lot that the bout he lost to Holyfield was by no means embarrassing. He lost the fight, but it was still very competitive, and a great effort on his part.

So yes I do agree that Bowe is better than Fury, and yes the gap is big enough that there will likely be a lot Heavyweights in between them, but Fury MAYBE isn't done yet while Bowe definitely is. So Fury is the only one that could potentially have any say in whether or not that gap gets narrowed. It all depends on what he does from here. If he does nothing. The gap remains pretty large.

You seem to have a real problem with giving any credit to fighters in the modern era. Is there any fighter in the last 25 years you'd have a good opinion of?

[Cojimar 1946]

Lewis vs Usyk is quite intriguing.

Lewis could win for sure. I guess what I meant was Usyk beats everyone Holyfield beat. I'd stand by that. I can see that Lewis could get to Usyk. Not saying I'd bet on him but I can see it.

Usyk would beat Tyson and Bowe? The guy had way too much trouble with Fury and Joshua.
At cruiser he would not have beat Qawi from the first fight.

How do you explain Holyfield losing to Moorer, getting dropped by Cooper then?

[Ambling Alp II]

the first fight was even for 8 rounds. You could even have Joshua ahead at that point. Then he got tired and Usyk won the last four rounds. You would expect a great fighter to win a lot more convincingly against someone as limited as Joshua.
Again nobody is perfect. But in his biggest four fights, Usyk was 0 for 4 in showing that he was great.

Fury was not anywhere remotely as good as Bowe. There are virtually dozens of heavyweights better than Fury but not as good as Bowe.
Bowe was better than Fury at virtually every part of the sport.

Fury's biggest win over Wilder. A guy with zero ability except for a big punch. And Fury could only dominate him once out of three times and had to have the judges bail him out for a draw in the first fight. A fight in which he did virtually nothing.

How in the world can anyone watch the Bowe-Holyfield fights and the Fury-Wilder fights and think Fury was remotely near Bowe?

Only in your world is going 4-0 against the best Heavyweights of his era a negative. I don't need to defend Usyk's victories any further they speak for themselves.

As for Fury not being anywhere remotely as good as Bowe, I'd tend to agree, but as far as their records show he's really not far behind Bowe. Bowe's 2 tremendous wins in tremendous battles against Holyfield help him a lot. It also helps him a lot that the bout he lost to Holyfield was by no means embarrassing. He lost the fight, but it was still very competitive, and a great effort on his part.

So yes I do agree that Bowe is better than Fury, and yes the gap is big enough that there will likely be a lot Heavyweights in between them, but Fury MAYBE isn't done yet while Bowe definitely is. So Fury is the only one that could potentially have any say in whether or not that gap gets narrowed. It all depends on what he does from here. If he does nothing. The gap remains pretty large.

You seem to have a real problem with giving any credit to fighters in the modern era. Is there any fighter in the last 25 years you'd have a good opinion of?

4-0 without an impressive win in a weak era for the hw division is a negative when comparing him to great fighters who fought much better competition.

So you realize that Fury is not remotely as good as Bowe, but as far as the records show he is not far behind. As far as the records? This should tell you that the records" can be very deceiving in boxing. Some guy's competition is much, much better than others. Some eras are better than others. If you are fighting in a weak era, you have to dominate your opponents. You have to take all that into consideration. You can just think a win over Tyson fury is the same as beating a prime George Foreman, just because Fury is the best opponent available.
No Fury is not done yet. We can only go by what has happened so far.

The hw division has been awful for almost 25 years. When was the last great hw fight? Not since when Bowe has been fighting.
Of course there have been great fighters in other weight classes during this time. Pacquiao, Mayweather, Golovkin, Marquez, Jones, Hopkins, Ward, De La Hoya, Mosley, Calzaghe, Barrera, Morales etc.

[Ambling Alp II]

Lewis could win for sure. I guess what I meant was Usyk beats everyone Holyfield beat. I'd stand by that. I can see that Lewis could get to Usyk. Not saying I'd bet on him but I can see it.

Usyk would beat Tyson and Bowe? The guy had way too much trouble with Fury and Joshua.
At cruiser he would not have beat Qawi from the first fight.

How do you explain Holyfield losing to Moorer, getting dropped by Cooper then?

Holyfield did not fight well in the first Moorer fight and that counts against him. The Cooper "knockdown" fight not as much because he did win the fight. That has to be weighed against the vastly superior competition that Holyfield beat.
And of course, as always, you have to watch the fights. People always gloss over Holyfield's first fights as a hw before he fought Bowe. He looked great in all of those fights.

[gilgamesh]

the first fight was even for 8 rounds. You could even have Joshua ahead at that point. Then he got tired and Usyk won the last four rounds. You would expect a great fighter to win a lot more convincingly against someone as limited as Joshua.
Again nobody is perfect. But in his biggest four fights, Usyk was 0 for 4 in showing that he was great.

Fury was not anywhere remotely as good as Bowe. There are virtually dozens of heavyweights better than Fury but not as good as Bowe.
Bowe was better than Fury at virtually every part of the sport.

Fury's biggest win over Wilder. A guy with zero ability except for a big punch. And Fury could only dominate him once out of three times and had to have the judges bail him out for a draw in the first fight. A fight in which he did virtually nothing.

How in the world can anyone watch the Bowe-Holyfield fights and the Fury-Wilder fights and think Fury was remotely near Bowe?

Only in your world is going 4-0 against the best Heavyweights of his era a negative. I don't need to defend Usyk's victories any further they speak for themselves.

As for Fury not being anywhere remotely as good as Bowe, I'd tend to agree, but as far as their records show he's really not far behind Bowe. Bowe's 2 tremendous wins in tremendous battles against Holyfield help him a lot. It also helps him a lot that the bout he lost to Holyfield was by no means embarrassing. He lost the fight, but it was still very competitive, and a great effort on his part.

So yes I do agree that Bowe is better than Fury, and yes the gap is big enough that there will likely be a lot Heavyweights in between them, but Fury MAYBE isn't done yet while Bowe definitely is. So Fury is the only one that could potentially have any say in whether or not that gap gets narrowed. It all depends on what he does from here. If he does nothing. The gap remains pretty large.

You seem to have a real problem with giving any credit to fighters in the modern era. Is there any fighter in the last 25 years you'd have a good opinion of?

4-0 without an impressive win in a weak era for the hw division is a negative when comparing him to great fighters who fought much better competition.

So you realize that Fury is not remotely as good as Bowe, but as far as the records show he is not far behind. As far as the records? This should tell you that the records" can be very deceiving in boxing. Some guy's competition is much, much better than others. Some eras are better than others. If you are fighting in a weak era, you have to dominate your opponents. You have to take all that into consideration. You can just think a win over Tyson fury is the same as beating a prime George Foreman, just because Fury is the best opponent available.
No Fury is not done yet. We can only go by what has happened so far.

The hw division has been awful for almost 25 years. When was the last great hw fight? Not since when Bowe has been fighting.
Of course there have been great fighters in other weight classes during this time. Pacquiao, Mayweather, Golovkin, Marquez, Jones, Hopkins, Ward, De La Hoya, Mosley, Calzaghe, Barrera, Morales etc.

Vitali Klitschko vs Lennox Lewis
Lamon Brewster vs Sergei Liakhovich
Wladimir Klitschko vs Anthony Joshua
Tyson Fury vs Deontay Wilder 3

Have all been great Heavyweight Title fights in the last 25 years.

The reason why Bowe rates ahead of Fury is because he often won in more spectacular fashion. Competition wise they're on a similar level.

Claiming that Usyk doesn't have an impressive win as a Heavyweight is just outright foolish.