Holyfield V Usyk

[Ambling Alp II]

OK. And we do realize that Holyfield was shot by the time he was fighting Ruiz, right?
Oh let me guess. Ruiz gets credit for winning a WBS title fight here.
Holyfield Was not only old, but had been a lot of fights. A lot of tough fights.
Are we really focusing on the Ruiz fights when rating Holyfield? .Seriously? wow.

Sure Holyfield could have beaten Holmes by more. Holyfield was in a lot of big fights. Sometimes he looked great, sometimes not. We should weigh the good against the bad, not just cherry picking. He was not the best heavyweight of all time. Just one of them.
Holyfield looked a lot better against Bowe and Tyson than Usyk did against Fury and Joshua. Fury and Joshua were nowhere near as good as Bowe and Tyson. Do we really have to argue about that?

Holyfield was 28 years old when he won his 24th fight.
For the umpteenth time, why does Usyk get a free pass for fighting such a ridiculously low amount of fights?

Lets see how Usyk does in 40th fight. What year will that be?

[gilgamesh]

OK. And we do realize that Holyfield was shot by the time he was fighting Ruiz, right?
Oh let me guess. Ruiz gets credit for winning a WBS title fight here.
Holyfield Was not only old, but had been a lot of fights. A lot of tough fights.
Are we really focusing on the Ruiz fights when rating Holyfield? .Seriously? wow.

Sure Holyfield could have beaten Holmes by more. Holyfield was in a lot of big fights. Sometimes he looked great, sometimes not. We should weigh the good against the bad, not just cherry picking. He was not the best heavyweight of all time. Just one of them.
Holyfield looked a lot better against Bowe and Tyson than Usyk did against Fury and Joshua. Fury and Joshua were nowhere near as good as Bowe and Tyson. Do we really have to argue about that?

Holyfield was 28 years old when he won his 24th fight.
For the umpteenth time, why does Usyk get a free pass for fighting such a ridiculously low amount of fights?

Lets see how Usyk does in 40th fight. What year will that be?

Holyfield was exactly as old Usyk is now when he couldn't beat Ruiz.

Usyk DOESN'T get a pass for fighting so relatively few fights. That's why he currently has such a relatively low score for a man who's achieved what he has.

Fury and Joshua do not rate as high as Bowe and Tyson. You are correct.

Holyfield rates higher than Usyk as Cruiserweight, Heavyweight and P4P. Are you simply unable to comprehend that Holyfield is better; but Usyk is also great?

Why does Usyk offend you so much? He seems like a great dude and a fine sportsman.

[Cent0089]

Holyfield looked a lot better against Bowe and Tyson than Usyk did against Fury and Joshua. Fury and Joshua were nowhere near as good as Bowe and Tyson. Do we really have to argue about that?

No, he did not looked better against Bowe. He won a close fight, then he took a loss and stoppage loss. Was hurt multiple times. How is that better than handling 4 clear wide decisions in Usyk case without trouble against Fury and Joshua? Holyfield W over Tyson is legendary, i agree . Both Holyfield and Usyk are great heavyweights and legends. Just take it man

[Ambling Alp II]

Try watching the fights.
Lost a competitive decision in the first fight. Was a great fight.
Won the second fight. Another great fight.
Lost the third fight. Did almost stop Bowe.

all of those fights (especially the first two) were far better fights than the Usyk-Fury fights or the Usyk-Joshua fights.
Bowe was light years better than Joshua and Fury. Can't believe we have to argue about this.
Holyfield beat many other guys much more connivingly. You can't just cherry pick an opponent who was much better than anyone Usk fought.

[Ambling Alp II]

OK. And we do realize that Holyfield was shot by the time he was fighting Ruiz, right?
Oh let me guess. Ruiz gets credit for winning a WBS title fight here.
Holyfield Was not only old, but had been a lot of fights. A lot of tough fights.
Are we really focusing on the Ruiz fights when rating Holyfield? .Seriously? wow.

Sure Holyfield could have beaten Holmes by more. Holyfield was in a lot of big fights. Sometimes he looked great, sometimes not. We should weigh the good against the bad, not just cherry picking. He was not the best heavyweight of all time. Just one of them.
Holyfield looked a lot better against Bowe and Tyson than Usyk did against Fury and Joshua. Fury and Joshua were nowhere near as good as Bowe and Tyson. Do we really have to argue about that?

Holyfield was 28 years old when he won his 24th fight.
For the umpteenth time, why does Usyk get a free pass for fighting such a ridiculously low amount of fights?

Lets see how Usyk does in 40th fight. What year will that be?

Holyfield was exactly as old Usyk is now when he couldn't beat Ruiz.

Usyk DOESN'T get a pass for fighting so relatively few fights. That's why he currently has such a relatively low score for a man who's achieved what he has.

Fury and Joshua do not rate as high as Bowe and Tyson. You are correct.

Holyfield rates higher than Usyk as Cruiserweight, Heavyweight and P4P. Are you simply unable to comprehend that Holyfield is better; but Usyk is also great?

Why does Usyk offend you so much? He seems like a great dude and a fine sportsman.

You can't just go by age. Come on. the wear and tear that a fighter takes makes a huge difference. Holyfield fought a lot more often. Fights against Bowe and others took a lot out of him. Had he been one pillow fight a year he would have been a lot better when he was 37 or 38. You have to take these things into consideration. Surely you know this?

Otherwise, you are going to have to give Ruiz as much credit as Bowe for their fights with Holyfield. Which I hope you know is ridiculous.

[giacomino]

OK. And we do realize that Holyfield was shot by the time he was fighting Ruiz, right?
Oh let me guess. Ruiz gets credit for winning a WBS title fight here.
Holyfield Was not only old, but had been a lot of fights. A lot of tough fights.
Are we really focusing on the Ruiz fights when rating Holyfield? .Seriously? wow.

Sure Holyfield could have beaten Holmes by more. Holyfield was in a lot of big fights. Sometimes he looked great, sometimes not. We should weigh the good against the bad, not just cherry picking. He was not the best heavyweight of all time. Just one of them.
Holyfield looked a lot better against Bowe and Tyson than Usyk did against Fury and Joshua. Fury and Joshua were nowhere near as good as Bowe and Tyson. Do we really have to argue about that?

Holyfield was 28 years old when he won his 24th fight.
For the umpteenth time, why does Usyk get a free pass for fighting such a ridiculously low amount of fights?

Lets see how Usyk does in 40th fight. What year will that be?

Holyfield was exactly as old Usyk is now when he couldn't beat Ruiz.

Usyk DOESN'T get a pass for fighting so relatively few fights. That's why he currently has such a relatively low score for a man who's achieved what he has.

Fury and Joshua do not rate as high as Bowe and Tyson. You are correct.

Holyfield rates higher than Usyk as Cruiserweight, Heavyweight and P4P. Are you simply unable to comprehend that Holyfield is better; but Usyk is also great?

Why does Usyk offend you so much? He seems like a great dude and a fine sportsman.

You know boxing. Only people who don’t know boxing think boxers age the same. Lewis was older than Tyson when they fought. Does anyone who knows boxing think Tyson hadn’t been shot for the better part of a decade when they fought? Pipino Cuevas and Wilfredo Benitez were shot at 26. Holyfield was past it when he fought Lewis, let alone Ruiz. Usyk is a very well-preserved 38 year old who hasn’t been in wars (which Holyfield tended to seek out). Great for him and I hope he keeps winning. Some belt holders are still making defenses into their 40s. Some really good fighters are out of the game before they turn 30.

[gilgamesh]

OK. And we do realize that Holyfield was shot by the time he was fighting Ruiz, right?
Oh let me guess. Ruiz gets credit for winning a WBS title fight here.
Holyfield Was not only old, but had been a lot of fights. A lot of tough fights.
Are we really focusing on the Ruiz fights when rating Holyfield? .Seriously? wow.

Sure Holyfield could have beaten Holmes by more. Holyfield was in a lot of big fights. Sometimes he looked great, sometimes not. We should weigh the good against the bad, not just cherry picking. He was not the best heavyweight of all time. Just one of them.
Holyfield looked a lot better against Bowe and Tyson than Usyk did against Fury and Joshua. Fury and Joshua were nowhere near as good as Bowe and Tyson. Do we really have to argue about that?

Holyfield was 28 years old when he won his 24th fight.
For the umpteenth time, why does Usyk get a free pass for fighting such a ridiculously low amount of fights?

Lets see how Usyk does in 40th fight. What year will that be?

Holyfield was exactly as old Usyk is now when he couldn't beat Ruiz.

Usyk DOESN'T get a pass for fighting so relatively few fights. That's why he currently has such a relatively low score for a man who's achieved what he has.

Fury and Joshua do not rate as high as Bowe and Tyson. You are correct.

Holyfield rates higher than Usyk as Cruiserweight, Heavyweight and P4P. Are you simply unable to comprehend that Holyfield is better; but Usyk is also great?

Why does Usyk offend you so much? He seems like a great dude and a fine sportsman.

You can't just go by age. Come on. the wear and tear that a fighter takes makes a huge difference. Holyfield fought a lot more often. Fights against Bowe and others took a lot out of him. Had he been one pillow fight a year he would have been a lot better when he was 37 or 38. You have to take these things into consideration. Surely you know this?

Otherwise, you are going to have to give Ruiz as much credit as Bowe for their fights with Holyfield. Which I hope you know is ridiculous.

PERFORMANCE IS TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION!!!!!

READ. COMPREHEND. LEARN.

Do you honestly think I or anyone else would be as impressed by Ruiz's fights with Holyfield as I would've been with Bowe's?

John Ruiz...that poster boy for excitement

[gilgamesh]

OK. And we do realize that Holyfield was shot by the time he was fighting Ruiz, right?
Oh let me guess. Ruiz gets credit for winning a WBS title fight here.
Holyfield Was not only old, but had been a lot of fights. A lot of tough fights.
Are we really focusing on the Ruiz fights when rating Holyfield? .Seriously? wow.

Sure Holyfield could have beaten Holmes by more. Holyfield was in a lot of big fights. Sometimes he looked great, sometimes not. We should weigh the good against the bad, not just cherry picking. He was not the best heavyweight of all time. Just one of them.
Holyfield looked a lot better against Bowe and Tyson than Usyk did against Fury and Joshua. Fury and Joshua were nowhere near as good as Bowe and Tyson. Do we really have to argue about that?

Holyfield was 28 years old when he won his 24th fight.
For the umpteenth time, why does Usyk get a free pass for fighting such a ridiculously low amount of fights?

Lets see how Usyk does in 40th fight. What year will that be?

Holyfield was exactly as old Usyk is now when he couldn't beat Ruiz.

Usyk DOESN'T get a pass for fighting so relatively few fights. That's why he currently has such a relatively low score for a man who's achieved what he has.

Fury and Joshua do not rate as high as Bowe and Tyson. You are correct.

Holyfield rates higher than Usyk as Cruiserweight, Heavyweight and P4P. Are you simply unable to comprehend that Holyfield is better; but Usyk is also great?

Why does Usyk offend you so much? He seems like a great dude and a fine sportsman.

You know boxing. Only people who don’t know boxing think boxers age the same. Lewis was older than Tyson when they fought. Does anyone who knows boxing think Tyson hadn’t been shot for the better part of a decade when they fought? Pipino Cuevas and Wilfredo Benitez were shot at 26. Holyfield was past it when he fought Lewis, let alone Ruiz. Usyk is a very well-preserved 38 year old who hasn’t been in wars (which Holyfield tended to seek out). Great for him and I hope he keeps winning. Some belt holders are still making defenses into their 40s. Some really good fighters are out of the game before they turn 30.

Yes I know Boxers age differently for many reasons. Wear and Tear. Injuries piling up. Some guys just kinda lose their edge mentally after being knocked out once or twice, and never can get their confidence back, and are noticeably gunshy from then on. Some guys simply sit around, and let the Ring Rust build up too long, and lose their edge that way.

A whole lot of factors. Yes I know all that.

I'm mainly just busting Alp's balls since he sh*ts on literally EVERYTHING Usyk did, when there's equally big insults you could launch the way of Holyfield's resume if you were so inclined.

Like the fact that he couldn't beat Michael Moorer at 32 years old.

[Cent0089]

Try watching the fights.
Lost a competitive decision in the first fight. Was a great fight.
Won the second fight. Another great fight.
Lost the third fight. Did almost stop Bowe.

all of those fights (especially the first two) were far better fights than the Usyk-Fury fights or the Usyk-Joshua fights.
Bowe was light years better than Joshua and Fury. Can't believe we have to argue about this.
Holyfield beat many other guys much more connivingly. You can't just cherry pick an opponent who was much better than anyone Usk fought.

You talked about how wide should Usyk beat those guys. Now, you are talking about excitement of the fights? Nobody arguing about excitement of the fights. Prime Holyfield took 2 losses from Bowe in entertaining fights. Usyk beat Joshua and Fury without big troubles in less entertaining fights. Facts

[Cent0089]

Holyfield was exactly as old Usyk is now when he couldn't beat Ruiz.

Usyk DOESN'T get a pass for fighting so relatively few fights. That's why he currently has such a relatively low score for a man who's achieved what he has.

Fury and Joshua do not rate as high as Bowe and Tyson. You are correct.

Holyfield rates higher than Usyk as Cruiserweight, Heavyweight and P4P. Are you simply unable to comprehend that Holyfield is better; but Usyk is also great?

Why does Usyk offend you so much? He seems like a great dude and a fine sportsman.

You know boxing. Only people who don’t know boxing think boxers age the same. Lewis was older than Tyson when they fought. Does anyone who knows boxing think Tyson hadn’t been shot for the better part of a decade when they fought? Pipino Cuevas and Wilfredo Benitez were shot at 26. Holyfield was past it when he fought Lewis, let alone Ruiz. Usyk is a very well-preserved 38 year old who hasn’t been in wars (which Holyfield tended to seek out). Great for him and I hope he keeps winning. Some belt holders are still making defenses into their 40s. Some really good fighters are out of the game before they turn 30.

Yes I know Boxers age differently for many reasons. Wear and Tear. Injuries piling up. Some guys just kinda lose their edge mentally after being knocked out once or twice, and never can get their confidence back, and are noticeably gunshy from then on. Some guys simply sit around, and let the Ring Rust build up too long, and lose their edge that way.

A whole lot of factors. Yes I know all that.

I'm mainly just busting Alp's balls since he sh*ts on literally EVERYTHING Usyk did, when there's equally big insults you could launch the way of Holyfield's resume if you were so inclined.

Like the fact that he couldn't beat Michael Moorer at 32 years old.

Yeah lot of people just talking crap about current fighters, they just cannot accept there are many great ones today too Maybe some nostalgia or something like that

[Ambling Alp II]

There are good and great fighters nowadays. It's he heavyweight division that sucks.
The Bowe-Holyfield fights were not just more exciting. They were of much higher quality.

Yes Holyfield lost Moorer. Should count against him. Looked lackluster in that fight. Beat him badly in the rematch and looked very good. We should way the good against the bad. None of these guys are perfect. Holyfield had several fights where he performed very good.

With Usyk, there are only 8 hw fights to rate him on. Small sample size. In his 4 biggest he did enough to win. Didn't look good enough to beat a great fighter in those fights. Holyfield looked good enough to be a great fighter in many fights and actually did beat great fighters.

[gilgamesh]

There are good and great fighters nowadays. It's he heavyweight division that sucks.
The Bowe-Holyfield fights were not just more exciting. They were of much higher quality.

Yes Holyfield lost Moorer. Should count against him. Looked lackluster in that fight. Beat him badly in the rematch and looked very good. We should way the good against the bad. None of these guys are perfect. Holyfield had several fights where he performed very good.

With Usyk, there are only 8 hw fights to rate him on. Small sample size. In his 4 biggest he did enough to win. Didn't look good enough to beat a great fighter in those fights. Holyfield looked good enough to be a great fighter in many fights and actually did beat great fighters.

With Holyfield vs Moorer 1 I don't even personally think that Holyfield lost. So I simply give him a 0 for that fight, and don't treat it as a full loss. With Holyfield vs Moorer 2 it was avenging a defeat in a spectacular manner in a great fight against a very good fighter and I consider it one of Holyfield's Gold star wins. So he got more points for his 2 bouts with Moorer than he lost...which is 0

Holyfield almost never went down without giving a great effort until later in his career which is to his credit in many of his defeats.

I don't feel he lost to Valuev at all so I score that as a win for Holyfield. Even though it still wasn't an impressive win by any means so it wasn't worth much regardless, but he didn't get beat by Valuev.

[Cent0089]

There are good and great fighters nowadays. It's he heavyweight division that sucks.
The Bowe-Holyfield fights were not just more exciting. They were of much higher quality.

Yes Holyfield lost Moorer. Should count against him. Looked lackluster in that fight. Beat him badly in the rematch and looked very good. We should way the good against the bad. None of these guys are perfect. Holyfield had several fights where he performed very good.

With Usyk, there are only 8 hw fights to rate him on. Small sample size. In his 4 biggest he did enough to win. Didn't look good enough to beat a great fighter in those fights. Holyfield looked good enough to be a great fighter in many fights and actually did beat great fighters.

If Holyfield is great, Usyk is too

[keithmoonhangover]

I think peak Holyfield outworks him. He wouldn't be a runaway winner, but I think he'd have enough rounds in the bank to win despite Usyk's late surge.

[gilgamesh]

I think peak Holyfield outworks him. He wouldn't be a runaway winner, but I think he'd have enough rounds in the bank to win despite Usyk's late surge.

Holyfield definitely has handspeed and punching power over Usyk. I would think he has stamina on Usyk too. I've never seen Usyk tired, but Holyfield usually fought at a faster pace, and pushed the action more.

Usyk is sharper with defense, and head movement and all that.

I'd have to give Holyfield the benefit of the doubt to win a close decision when I imagine them head to head.

[Cojimar 1946]

Oh of course. The sport magically got better when you became a fan. That is what a lot of people believe. The fact that some guys didn't up (and some did) doesn't mean that the sport is better.
That you personally don't know anyone that that doesn't think Bivol and Ward would have beaten guys before you were born ?
How many people do you personally know ((outside of the Boxrec universe) who even follow boxing?

You would even favor basketball players over Max Baer? Wow. I mean Wow.
Current ones of course.

Era bias has nothing to do with thinking lots of modern guys would beat champs from the 1930s. That's down to how poor they look on film.

There are lots of stuff standard in boxing today lacking in some guys from that era like like maintaining a high guard and moving your head and upper body to avoid punches. Even guys who cannot win a championship generally possess those skills. They also usually make extensive use of their jabs.

[Ambling Alp II]

What you are saying is exactly bias. Thinking the sport magically got better when you became a fan is bias.
Extensive use of their jabs? Well the jab has been important since well before Baer's time. The hws of today have better jabs on average than the hws from earlier eras.

Of course, Maz Baer and others were not great at everything. Baer in particular was not a textbook fighter. But he was an aggressive fight with some power and a good chin. Sometimes that was good enough, sometimes not. Same with fighters now. None of these guys are perfect. In any era.

[gilgamesh]

Oh of course. The sport magically got better when you became a fan. That is what a lot of people believe. The fact that some guys didn't up (and some did) doesn't mean that the sport is better.
That you personally don't know anyone that that doesn't think Bivol and Ward would have beaten guys before you were born ?
How many people do you personally know ((outside of the Boxrec universe) who even follow boxing?

You would even favor basketball players over Max Baer? Wow. I mean Wow.
Current ones of course.

Era bias has nothing to do with thinking lots of modern guys would beat champs from the 1930s. That's down to how poor they look on film.

There are lots of stuff standard in boxing today lacking in some guys from that era like like maintaining a high guard and moving your head and upper body to avoid punches. Even guys who cannot win a championship generally possess those skills. They also usually make extensive use of their jabs.

In most cases the guys from the 1930's would be giving away 30 to 40 pounds minimum as well. Along with height and reach.

[gilgamesh]

What you are saying is exactly bias. Thinking the sport magically got better when you became a fan is bias.
Extensive use of their jabs? Well the jab has been important since well before Baer's time. The hws of today have better jabs on average than the hws from earlier eras.

Of course, Maz Baer and others were not great at everything. Baer in particular was not a textbook fighter. But he was an aggressive fight with some power and a good chin. Sometimes that was good enough, sometimes not. Same with fighters now. None of these guys are perfect. In any era.

The Sport ebbs and flows. Something is always interesting in the world of Boxing. Every era may not be the best era of this division or that division, but every era has it's own Legends who do amazing things.

When you watch fights from the past it definitely seems like a greater degree of stamina would've been a must as Promoters largely demanded more action, and action fights were more the norm.

Guys who were content to box carefully and win on points probably just kinda would've been frozen out back in the day by promoters who just didn't want a boring fighter on their card.

[cfang]

Evander was a great fighter especially at cruiser. At heavy he had some good wins but losses too. Usyk is underrated by many here it seems. I’d be very confident of him beating evander. When all said and done evander was fairly one dimensional. He didn’t have a plan b. Usyk would be far too savvy and would have a strategy to win. He’s also bigger and far more mobile.

[Cojimar 1946]

Great to see after 10 years Cojimar still hasn't tired of coming to the boxers of the past forum to denigrate boxers of the past. Not really the way i'd choose to spend my free time but to each his own.

We see NBA players, NFL, modern "vastly better athletes" box all the time now, in Misfits, Jake Paul cards etc. They can't fight or take a punch, get knocked out by non-athlete influencers, so the idea of them beating Max Baer is laughable. Max Schmeling's right hand couldn't find Baer but someone's going to come off the basketball court and do a Joe Louis on him.

Imagine being a person who genuinely believes this, or, even worse, writing it just to get a reaction. I don't which one is more embarrassing.

As far as the OP goes, I like Usyk, but Joshua and Dubois can't box and Fury can't punch. He outboxed them, in some cases narrowly, so I can't see him surviving Bowe, who was both monster sized and could punch. A lot of people thought an old Holyfield edged Lewis in the rematch, again, a more ominous proposition than Joshua, Dubois or Fury. Holyfield takes it.

Baer having a primitive skill set and poor defense has nothing to do with era bias. That's the reality based on film we have of him. Nothing laughable to think a guy with that skillset could lose to someone with little or no pro experience.

Moreover, a guy like that pretty clearly wouldn't be competitive with today's top guys.

How does Bowe help Holyfield here given he lost the trilogy and his only win in the series was a close controversial bout in which Bowe was badly out of shape?

[gilgamesh]

Great to see after 10 years Cojimar still hasn't tired of coming to the boxers of the past forum to denigrate boxers of the past. Not really the way i'd choose to spend my free time but to each his own.

We see NBA players, NFL, modern "vastly better athletes" box all the time now, in Misfits, Jake Paul cards etc. They can't fight or take a punch, get knocked out by non-athlete influencers, so the idea of them beating Max Baer is laughable. Max Schmeling's right hand couldn't find Baer but someone's going to come off the basketball court and do a Joe Louis on him.

Imagine being a person who genuinely believes this, or, even worse, writing it just to get a reaction. I don't which one is more embarrassing.

As far as the OP goes, I like Usyk, but Joshua and Dubois can't box and Fury can't punch. He outboxed them, in some cases narrowly, so I can't see him surviving Bowe, who was both monster sized and could punch. A lot of people thought an old Holyfield edged Lewis in the rematch, again, a more ominous proposition than Joshua, Dubois or Fury. Holyfield takes it.

Baer having a primitive skill set and poor defense has nothing to do with era bias. That's the reality based on film we have of him. Nothing laughable to think a guy with that skillset could lose to someone with little or no pro experience.

Moreover, a guy like that pretty clearly wouldn't be competitive with today's top guys.

How does Bowe help Holyfield here given he lost the trilogy and his only win in the series was a close controversial bout in which Bowe was badly out of shape?

All 3 of their fights were incredible. Holyfield did not embarrass himself losing his title to Bowe. He fought his heart out.

[Cojimar 1946]

Great to see after 10 years Cojimar still hasn't tired of coming to the boxers of the past forum to denigrate boxers of the past. Not really the way i'd choose to spend my free time but to each his own.

We see NBA players, NFL, modern "vastly better athletes" box all the time now, in Misfits, Jake Paul cards etc. They can't fight or take a punch, get knocked out by non-athlete influencers, so the idea of them beating Max Baer is laughable. Max Schmeling's right hand couldn't find Baer but someone's going to come off the basketball court and do a Joe Louis on him.

Imagine being a person who genuinely believes this, or, even worse, writing it just to get a reaction. I don't which one is more embarrassing.

As far as the OP goes, I like Usyk, but Joshua and Dubois can't box and Fury can't punch. He outboxed them, in some cases narrowly, so I can't see him surviving Bowe, who was both monster sized and could punch. A lot of people thought an old Holyfield edged Lewis in the rematch, again, a more ominous proposition than Joshua, Dubois or Fury. Holyfield takes it.

Baer having a primitive skill set and poor defense has nothing to do with era bias. That's the reality based on film we have of him. Nothing laughable to think a guy with that skillset could lose to someone with little or no pro experience.

Moreover, a guy like that pretty clearly wouldn't be competitive with today's top guys.

How does Bowe help Holyfield here given he lost the trilogy and his only win in the series was a close controversial bout in which Bowe was badly out of shape?

All 3 of their fights were incredible. Holyfield did not embarrass himself losing his title to Bowe. He fought his heart out.

Okay what does that have to do with the argument that Usyk would lose to Bowe? Even if that was the case how does that help Holyfield vis a vis Usyk.

Holyfield and Bowe both generally have more fan friendly styles than Usyk

I've never seen an Usyk fight as entertaining as Bowe-Golota either

[gilgamesh]

It doesn't have anything to do with it really. Debating whether or not Usyk would beat Bowe or Holyfield would beat Fury is rather pointless, and doesn't prove anything because no matter who we think wins any of those fights. We all might be wrong.

I was just saying that Holyfield losing to Bowe was no disgrace to him.

[Cojimar 1946]

I think Holyfield made Bowe look better than he was in reality because he didn't have the attributes to take advantage of Bowe's weaknesses. Sort of like Norton with regards to Ali and Holmes.

But there are a lot of non-greats I would favor to beat Bowe based on matching up better. One of Bowe's biggest weaknesses was his poor defense but Holyfield didn't hit hard enough for that to be a huge liability.