pundit wrote:
Same here. He is the middlweight who serially beat up light-heavyweights and had even the best heavywegihts scared and running, including the great Jack Dempsey who refused to give Greb a shot after recieving a beating in sparring. No other middleweight, not Robinson, not Hagler, not Monzon achieved that.
Btw, I would have added Mickey Walker to that list, even if someone else (Cedan or Burley, I guess) would have had to go.
stop spreading false myths. greb never beat up dempsey in sparring
I read this at least a couple of times. They sparred before Dempsey's defense against Billy Miske. Greb roughed up Dempsey badly, who didn't know how to deal with Greb's speed, and Dempsey's coach stopped the session after 3 rounds.
Heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey said that Greb was “The fastest fighter I ever saw. Hell. Greb is faster than (lightweight champion) Benny Leonard.” In 1920 Greb, who was in training for Billy Miske, sparred Dempsey a few rounds. The sparring sessions were so good that thousands of fans showed up just to watch. According to eyewitnesses Greb “slapped the crouching heavyweight champion around, and bounced away before Dempsey could do more than cock a punch.” Jack Kearns, Dempsey’s manager, ran Greb out of camp. There was much talk of a Dempsey-Greb match for the heavyweight championship, but it never came off. It seems Jack Kearns was unwilling to take the chance.
That doesn't prove anything! If anything it just shows that Greb landed a few slaps here and they're, that is if it even happened that way, which is very much in doubt and which is very far from the "beating" that you claimed...though what you presented is not a good source to use and although I respect Monte, the quote that you listed sounds exactly like 100 other bio-sketches about Greb...it's the same myth regurgitated over and over again. Some newspaper clips from the day that talks about the sparring match is what one should present!!!
barry wrote:That doesn't prove anything! If anything it just shows that Greb landed a few slaps here and they're, that is if it even happened that way, which is very much in doubt and which is very far from the "beating" that you claimed...though what you presented is not a good source to use and although I respect Monte, the quote that you listed sounds exactly like 100 other bio-sketches about Greb...it's the same myth regurgitated over and over again. Some newspaper clips from the day that talks about the sparring match is what one should present!!!
If I don't like the fact I dispute the evidence...
No disrespect intended to Harry Greb, but two things standout here. First, sparring sessions don't count period. Second, even if they did, Greb was no longer a Middleweight at the time, and the question was about who the greatest MW was.
This page has several newspaper articles on the Greb-Dempsey sparring. This article from the NYT (Sep 3 1920) makes for particularly nice reading:
Dempsey tackled Bill Tate, Harry Greb and Marty Farrell this afternoon. He took them on in that order, boxing two rounds with Tate and three each with Greb and Farrell. The bout with Greb was a real one. It was the best work-out Dempsey has had. The Pittsburgher was in prime shape, and although he weighs only 165 pounds he gave the champion a real honust-to-goodness battle. Dempsey hasn't seen so many gloves in a long time as Greb showed him. Greb was all over him and kept forcing him around the ring throughout the session. Dempsey could do but little with the speedy light heavyweight, while Greb seemed to be able to hit Dempsey almost at will. Time and again Greb made the champion miss with his famous right and left hooks to the head and countered with heavy swings to the head and hooks to the body.
--Greb Lightning Fast--
Greb was a veritable whirlwind. Twenty-five pounds lighter than the champion and about four inches shorter, Harry made the champion step lively. He had to jump off the floor to hit Dempsey in the head when the latter was standing straight, but managed to do it and landed without leaving himself open to Jack's snappy hooks and short swings.
>>>If I don't like the fact I dispute the evidence<<<
I dispute claims where the person making the claim uses a secondary source that was written around 2005 for an issue which occured in the early 1920s!!!
What you list still is very, very far from showing that Dempsey took a beating as you claimed, or that Dempsey refused to fight Greb, which is what the issue is, but as Seamus states...sparring means nothing...especially when you have to remember that Greb and other sparring partners just entered the ring fresh whereas Dempsey had been training all day, so even though sparring means little, it could be expected that the fighter in training is quite tired after training most of the day as well as sparring with several other fighters beforehand!
But I do like the older sources as they hold more weight than articles recently written.
1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Marcel Cerdan
6. Charley Burley
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Les Darcy
9. Jake LaMotta
10. Mickey Walker
11. Bernard Hopkins
12. Stanley Ketchel
13. Tiger Flowers
14. Emile Griffith
15. Tommy Ryan
16. Rodrigo Valdez
17. Roy Jones
18. Nino Benvenuti
19. Dick Tiger
20. Lloyd Marshall
21. Ken Overlin
22. Tony Zale
23. Joey Giardello
24. Paul Pender
25. Jack Dempsey
26. Jock McAvoy
I'm disappointed with my own list... There are so many fighters missed off
Last edited by Ezzard on 27 Sep 2006, 02:12, edited 1 time in total.
Decagon wrote:1. Harry Greb
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Marin Hagler
5. Roy Jones
6. Lloyd Marshall
7. Mickey Walker
8. Bernard Hopkins
9. Marcel Cerdan
10. Jake LaMotta
11. Bob Fitzsimmons
12. Charley Burley
13. Tiger Flowers
14. Archie Moore
15. Billy Conn
16. Eddie Booker
17. Ezzard Charles
18. Stanley Ketchel
19. Sam Langford
20. James Toney
21. Emile Griffith
22. Tony Zale
23. Gene Fullmer
24. Jack Dempsey
25. Holman Williams
26. Joe Walcott
27. Sugar Ray Leonard
28. Young Joe Louis
29. Mike Gibbons
30. Carmen Basilio
31. Tommy Ryan
32. Paul Pender
33. Lazlo Papp
34. Tommy Hearns
35. Shorty Boy Hogue
36. Cerefino Garcia
37. Billy Papke
38. Nino Benvenuti
39. Joey Giardello
40. Rocky Graziano
No Overlin??? No Dick Tiger???
For what it's worth I think Benvenuti would beat Fullmer convincingly.
you underate fullmer. he would roughed up benvenuti bad.
Whenever I see these lists being made I always wonder why he's so high so maybe I do. Fullmer was a good honest pro, an excellent fighter but when I see him on film and check through his accomplishments i just can't see him beating many of the top fighters.
I think Benvenuti would cruise past him. Fullmer is the one guy who always sticks out when i look at MWs...
I think some people are underrating Fullmer and some are underrating Benvenuti. I have them both in my top 10.
Fullmer beat some really good middleweights. He beat Robinson, Basilio twice, Spider Webb twice, and Benny Paret among others. He wasn't flashy but he was effective.
Benvenuti was smart, fast and tough to hit. His fights with Griffith were at a very high level.
A fight between the two would probably have been very even. Don't understand why people are rating these guys so low.
Fullmer beat some really good middleweights. He beat Robinson, Basilio twice, Spider Webb twice, and Benny Paret among others. He wasn't flashy but he was effective.
dont forget he also beat huge punching florentino fernandez, and middleweight champion paul pender. he also beat the vastly underated ralph tiger jones.
fullmer also fought two draws with great middleweight champions joey giardello and dick tiger
I agree with you Brockton; Fullmer proved that he was truly an all time great. I don't understand what people have against him. He has to be one of the top 10 middleweights of alltime.
The middleweights are one of the more difficult to try to rank...as Decagon says...there are just too many great middleweights...there are around 50 middleweights who could be put into a top twenty and it would still be a pretty solid list regardless of who was listed...that is unless the person left off Greb, Hagler and Monzon!
Ambling Alp wrote:I think some people are underrating Fullmer and some are underrating Benvenuti. I have them both in my top 10.
Fullmer beat some really good middleweights. He beat Robinson, Basilio twice, Spider Webb twice, and Benny Paret among others. He wasn't flashy but he was effective.
Benvenuti was smart, fast and tough to hit. His fights with Griffith were at a very high level.
A fight between the two would probably have been very even. Don't understand why people are rating these guys so low.
I agree on Benvenuti. Fullmer was a decent MW. He hs some good wins and was honest enough. I just don't see him as being anywhere near the top 10 and can't see him beating Nino either.
Benvenuti was a far better fighter than Fullmer. 