gil's Refined Ranking System

[gilgamesh]

Ken Norton

With a record of 42-7-1 (33 KO's). He competed in 3 Heavyweight Championship fights. Losing them all. He has 3 Quality wins (Muhammad Ali, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Young)

He has 2 Non Title Gold Star wins (Ali 1, Quarry)

Special note: I consider the 3rd bout with Ali to be a victory for Norton. It was closer than I remembered it being, but I still saw it as a Norton victory. So he gets points for that "loss" instead of losing any.

I also didn't quite think Norton beat Jimmy Young, but it was 8 rounds to 7 either way, and as close as it gets so I give the judges the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Norton finishes with an overall score of 139 points.

[gilgamesh]

Roy Jones Jr.

One of the most spectacular P4P fighters of the 1990's. Roy Jones Jr. finished his career with a record of 66-10 with 47 KO's. He fought in 26 Championship fights winning with a record of 23-3 in them.

He beat 12 Quality opponents (Jorge Castro, Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Vinny Pazienza, Eric Lucas, Montell Griffin 2, Virgil Hill, Reggie Johnson, Julio Cesar Gonzalez, Antonio Tarver, John Ruiz, Felix Trinidad)

He has what I'd consider to be 2 Gold star wins (Virgil Hill, Antonio Tarver 1)

I could find video of all, but 3 of his early bouts, and it's not hard to imagine what those may have looked like.

His overall score comes to 524 points

Note: And I know what you're all wondering. How much did that post-prime run affect Roy's legacy? I thought the same thing. So if I total up the score of simply the bouts that took place after Tarver 1 where Roy went 17-9. He loses 91 points from his overall score.

So in a hypothetical world where Roy decided to call it a day after his victory over Tarver in the 1st bout. He would've finished with 615 points.

[witherspoon]

Roy Jones Jr.


He has what I'd consider to be 2 Gold star wins (Virgil Hill, Antonio Tarver 1)

As a James Toney fan-boy.... I approve

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

The Foreman fight was another travesty in that Foreman was on his feet looking at Clayton when he was waved off at the 9 second mark. The scores were a joke with Foreman giving Ali a beating in their first fight that he never fully recovered from. Then he ducked the immediate lucrative rematch offered by a black oilman in Indonesia to get beat up for peanut$ by Wepner so badly he was bawling to the ref.

Wepner's "beating" of Ali consisted almost exclusively of rabbit punches, and nasty ones at that.

Far from bawling to the referee, Ali started berating him (Tony Perez, if I recall correctly) after several rounds of taking punishing blows to the back of the neck. He warned Perez that if he (Perez) didn't take action he would retaliate in kind. And he did.

I've always found this fight fascinating as an example of a fighter with an inferior skillset trying to overcome that disadvantage with roughhouse tactics, and the superior boxer having to prove his own mental and physical resilience in order to overcome those tactics.

It takes alot of mental gymnastics to see this particular fight, in itself, as proof that Ali was anything other than teak tough and exceptionally ringwise.

As for the context of Ali ducking a Foreman rematch, that's a fascinating scenario to assess, but if Ali was physically damaged by the win over Foreman, there's no doubt that Foreman (by his own admission) was equally damaged psychologically by that defeat. Who knows how a rematch would have panned out?
I'm not going to pretend it's me.

- But Ali was crying to the ref for most of the fight. Yeah, eventually he responded with his own rabbits that Wepner never cried about. Tellingly, when Ali stopped being a crybaby, he put on a severe exhibition to KO Wepner in the 9th. This is the same Wepner that George as a 3 fight novice demolished inside 3 rds. Perhaps more tellingly, Wepner before a talk TV show promoting the fight said afterwards that Ali wanted him to call Ali a niggr on TV so Ali could go hysteric to promote this useless fight to nowhere.

Keep in mind this fight was in Podunk, Ohio with Ali's purse Ali earned $1.6 million.

Ali and Foreman's proposed purse by the black Indonesian oilman in Indonesia was supposed to be more than their Zaire 50/50 split of $10mil. Can you fellas give me a short list of Hvy Champs would turn down such a greater for a far less lessor purse?

As to Joe's “I’d make you one of my bums too,” I've read at least dozen Ali bios, and that quote comes from one. Ali had gone into his hysteric mode savaging Joe's record after a post fight. Joe kept it short and simple with a gravitas never achieved by Ali, the wise man responding to the kid punk's hysteria.

Boys and any of you gals, I hate to bring it up, but flaws are flaws and Ali had bukos more of them than Joe who was a mentor by his public actions in and out of the ring of kids Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela.

Then the ducking of the Wilt fight on Howie's ABC sport's segment after the contracts had been agreed to where both were willing to sign the historic contract on Howie's show. It was embarrassing to see Wilt turn into a little loud mouthed kid when Herbert decided privately to cancel the fight because of the obvious physical superiority not to mention mental superiority as Wilt had a grand time playing with Ali. Tops was Ali going into his shuffle before throwing a punch at Wilt who comically went along as he did a swirling U turn around the space as if he had been hit to come up like he had been shining shoes to announce he also knew how to shine shoes.

Ali fought ancient Zora Folley instead who did surprising well until Ali finally got the KO. That was his last fight until the Supremes ruled favorably allow the Jerry Quarry fight in Atlanta.

Alas, all the subjects above are R.I.P. as no doubt we shall all be.

I could go on and on about Ali who as a kid was the big Bro getting to do stuff I wanted to do, but I'd rather point out the obviously physical and mental superiority that both Wilt and Big George had over Ali. Don't forget that Cus had taken Wilt under his wing for the fight and Ali had no way of hiring sparmates with anything near Wilt's one off assets...

So, net result was Wilt becoming the 1st $millionaire professional sports athlete that he held for many increasing contracts until retirement.

[gilgamesh]

Roy Jones Jr.


He has what I'd consider to be 2 Gold star wins (Virgil Hill, Antonio Tarver 1)

As a James Toney fan-boy.... I approve

Toney and Hopkins are the 2 best names he ever beat definitely, but he didn't put it all together with a great performance to go along with the great opponent in either case. He won, but was not exactly spectacular in doing so. Against Tarver he really had to dig deep to pull out those last few rounds and the fight, and it's probably the single best fight he was ever involved in.

He never looked more spectacular against a top guy than he looked against Virgil Hill.

[witherspoon]

Toney and Hopkins are the 2 best names he ever beat definitely, but he didn't put it all together with a great performance to go along with the great opponent in either case. He won, but was not exactly spectacular in doing so.

He never looked more spectacular against a top guy than he looked against Virgil Hill.

That's interesting. I assumed that you excluded the Toney fight because Toney himself was drained and failed to perform to his usual level.

[gilgamesh]

Toney and Hopkins are the 2 best names he ever beat definitely, but he didn't put it all together with a great performance to go along with the great opponent in either case. He won, but was not exactly spectacular in doing so.

He never looked more spectacular against a top guy than he looked against Virgil Hill.

That's interesting. I assumed that you excluded the Toney fight because Toney himself was drained and failed to perform to his usual level.

I excluded because it was a relatively dull fight and performance. Good opponent to have beaten, Uninspiring way to have beaten him.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Toney and Hopkins are the 2 best names he ever beat definitely, but he didn't put it all together with a great performance to go along with the great opponent in either case. He won, but was not exactly spectacular in doing so.

He never looked more spectacular against a top guy than he looked against Virgil Hill.

That's interesting. I assumed that you excluded the Toney fight because Toney himself was drained and failed to perform to his usual level.

- Two Ton had a TUE after the 168 lb Roy weighin resulting in his embarrassing shutout before fighters had to be granted Comish permission for TUEs. Then he promptly lost to Montel Griffin 2x @175.

He was a plodder on two stumps in the ring. Later when he first faced Rahman, Hasim near replicated Roy's KD when Rahman comically sent him desperately peddling backwards to the opposing ropes that budged out dangerously, a KD by the rules that Ref Eddie Cotton ignored as typical of boxing's public ineptness that sees every other high ranked fight bathed in controversy.

Bookies love boxing as ultimate insiders. Then lost twice to Sam Peter. Then Fres Oquendo sent him barreling like a Whiskey Keg on the canvas through the ropes to the arena floor.

Blessed with an All time Chin, he was appropriately cursed as a congenital bully with poor training habits, but prob holds the record for cleaning out Chicken Bucket establishments and Salad Bars...yeah

If foul mouths counted in boxing, he'd be near the top tier.

[gilgamesh]

"Prince" Naseem Hamed

With a record of 36-1 with 31 KO's. He competed in 17 Championship fights winning 16 of them. He has 6 Quality wins (Steve Robinson, Kevin Kelley, Wilfredo Vasquez, Manuel Medina, Tom Johnson and Vuyani Bungu).

He has 1 Gold star win (Kevin Kelley)

One of the most exciting Featherweights of all time, and certainly one of the most arrogant. Naz had a truly unique style, and Love or Hate him was definitely must see TV for Boxing fans.

Naz finishes with an overall score of 385 points

[gilgamesh]

Vasyl "The Matrix" Lomachenko

In a Professional career that spanned only 21 bouts, Vasyl Lomachenko fought in 17 Championship fights, and won 14 of them. His record overall is 18-3 with 12 KO's. He has 9 Quality wins (Gary Russell Jr, Roman Martinez, Nicholas Waters, Jason Sosa, Guillermo Rigodeaux, Jorge Linares, Jose Pedraza, Luke Campbell and George Kambosos)

He has 3 Gold star wins (Walters, Rigondeaux and Linares)

Tied for the record for the fastest to ever win a World Championship he won his 2nd and 3rd divisional Championships faster than any other boxer ever, and accomplished more in 21 fights than most boxers do in twice as many. An incredible run.

Note: All of his losses were somewhat controversial particularly the Salido and Haney losses. I thought Teofimo beat him clearly, albeit in another close fight.

His overall score comes to 346 points

[gilgamesh]

Terence "Bud" Crawford

With a record of 42-0 and 31 KO's. He fought in 19 Championship contests winning all 19 of them. A Champion in 5 weight divisions, he was Undisputed Champion in 3 of them.

He has 12 Quality wins (Gamboa, Beltran, Postol, Indongo, Benavidez Jr., Khan, Kavaliauskas, Brook, Porter, Spence, Madrimov and Canelo)

He has 3 Gold Star wins (Gamboa, Porter and Spence) and 1 All time great win (Canelo)

He finishes in rare company in the 500 club with 557 points

[gilgamesh]

Marvelous Marvin Hagler

With a record of 62-3-2 (52 KO's). He fought in 15 Championship fights going 13-1-1 in them. He beat 13 Quality opponents (Ray Seales, Bennie Briscoe, Willie Monroe 2x, Eugene Hart, Minter, Antuofermo 2, Mustafa Hamsho 1 and 2, Roberto Duran, Juan Roldan, Hearns, and Mugabi)

He has 1 All Time win over Thomas Hearns.

His overall score comes to 587 points putting him up there alongside the biggest names in the sport.

Note: Probably the most dominant Champion of the 1980's he ran off a string of 12 consecutive title defenses between 1980 and 1987 before losing the title on a close decision to Ray Leonard, and most consider his Draw with Vito Antuofermo in his 1st title attempt to be an out and out robbery. I would agree with that consensus.

[tiny_acres]

I'm waiting on Larry Holmes and Pacquioa points.

One that would really interest me. Is Chisora even with all of his losses he put up a challenge and some very close fights in most of those. How would he rate?

[gilgamesh]

I'm waiting on Larry Holmes and Pacquioa points.

One that would really interest me. Is Chisora even with all of his losses he put up a challenge and some very close fights in most of those. How would he rate?

It'll take me A LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG time before I'm getting to the likes of Chisora I'm not gonna lie. I wouldn't think he'd have 100 points just based on how others have come out who are more accomplished.

Holmes and Pacquiao I've covered a lot of, and will be adding to the list in the not too distant future. Holmes is probably the biggest Heavyweight name I've yet to add, and Pacquiao definitely is one of the biggest P4P names I've yet to add.

This list will continue to grow indefinitely though. I'm intrigued to see where everyone will wind up as well.

[gilgamesh]

Manny "Pacman" Pacquiao

With a record of 62-8-3 (39 KO's). He fought in 28 Championship fights going 22-4-2 in them. He beat 19 Quality opponents (Chockvivat, Ledwaba, Barrera 2x, Marquez 2x, Morales 2x, Larios, De La Hoya, Hatton, Cotto, Margarito, Mosley, Bradley 2x, Matthysse, Broner, Thurman)

He has 7 Gold Star wins, 3 of which came in Non Title fights. (Marquez 2, Hatton, Cotto and Thurman) were for Championships while (Morales 2 and 3, Barrera 2) were not.

He has 2 All Time Great wins (Marco Antonio Barrera 1, and Oscar De La Hoya)

Note: His "Loss" to Tim Bradley in their 1st bout was one of the worst decisions I've ever seen against a high profile fighter, and should certainly be a win on his record. His loss to Jeff Horn was questionable, but not as bad of a decision as I had initially thought upon review.

His overall score comes to 903 points.

What he accomplished in winning Championships from Flyweight (112 pounds) to Jr. Middleweight (154 pounds) is unprecedented in the sport, and he's in a class by himself with that achievement.

[gilgamesh]

Tommy "The Duke" Morrison

With a record of 48-3-1 with 42 KO's. Morrison fought in 4 Championship fights with a record of 2-2 in them. He defeated 4 Quality opponents (Carl Williams, Pinklon Thomas, George Foreman and Razor Ruddock), and has 1 Gold Star win (George Foreman)

A spectacularly exciting Heavyweight. His fights were always a lot of fun.

His overall score comes to 241 points

[keithmoonhangover]

Tommy "The Duke" Morrison

With a record of 48-3-1 with 42 KO's. Morrison fought in 4 Championship fights with a record of 2-2 in them. He defeated 4 Quality opponents (Carl Williams, Pinklon Thomas, George Foreman and Razor Ruddock), and has 1 Gold Star win (George Foreman)

A spectacularly exciting Heavyweight. His fights were always a lot of fun.

His overall score comes to 241 points

I like this system, will you give us a definitive heavyweight top 10 at some point?

[gilgamesh]

Tommy "The Duke" Morrison

With a record of 48-3-1 with 42 KO's. Morrison fought in 4 Championship fights with a record of 2-2 in them. He defeated 4 Quality opponents (Carl Williams, Pinklon Thomas, George Foreman and Razor Ruddock), and has 1 Gold Star win (George Foreman)

A spectacularly exciting Heavyweight. His fights were always a lot of fun.

His overall score comes to 241 points

I like this system, will you give us a definitive heavyweight top 10 at some point?

I'm nearing completing Larry Holmes' record now, and I feel like he's the biggest name I have missing at this point from the Top 10. I can show you what the Top 10 looks like after adding him.

[keithmoonhangover]

Tommy "The Duke" Morrison

With a record of 48-3-1 with 42 KO's. Morrison fought in 4 Championship fights with a record of 2-2 in them. He defeated 4 Quality opponents (Carl Williams, Pinklon Thomas, George Foreman and Razor Ruddock), and has 1 Gold Star win (George Foreman)

A spectacularly exciting Heavyweight. His fights were always a lot of fun.

His overall score comes to 241 points

I like this system, will you give us a definitive heavyweight top 10 at some point?

I'm nearing completing Larry Holmes' record now, and I feel like he's the biggest name I have missing at this point from the Top 10. I can show you what the Top 10 looks like after adding him.

Looking forward to it brother.

[gilgamesh]

"The Easton Assassin" Larry Holmes

With a record of 69-6 (44 KO's). Larry Holmes competed in 26 Heavyweight Championship fights going 21-5 in them. He reeled off 20 Consecutive title defenses after winning the WBC Championship from Ken Norton in 1978, and ranks behind only Joe Louis as far as consecutive title defenses are concerned.

He defeated 12 Quality opponents (Earnie Shavers 2x, Ken Norton, Mike Weaver 2x, Muhammad Ali, Trevor Berbick, Leon Spinks, Gerry Cooney, Tim Witherspoon, Bonecrusher Smith 2x, Carl "The Truth" Williams and Ray Mercer).

He has 1 Gold Star win (Ken Norton)

Overall his score comes to 576 points

[gilgamesh]

I like this system, will you give us a definitive heavyweight top 10 at some point?

I'm nearing completing Larry Holmes' record now, and I feel like he's the biggest name I have missing at this point from the Top 10. I can show you what the Top 10 looks like after adding him.

Looking forward to it brother.

Thankfully I was already closing in on finishing watching all of Holmes' fights, and I now have a fairly definitive Top 10 of at least the time since Dempsey.

I'll go ahead and include everyone I've covered up to this point, but note that anyone I have ranked 11-21 could easily be overtaken still yet by someone else that I've yet to cover. Everyone will take their rightful place in the list once I've watched all available footage on them, and properly assessed everything.

Heavyweight
1. Muhammad Ali - 1107 points
2. Joe Louis - 899 points
3. George Foreman - 694 points
4. Larry Holmes - 576 points
5. Rocky Marciano - 474 points
6. Lennox Lewis - 470 Points
7. Evander Holyfield - 466 Points
8. Riddick Bowe - 448 points
9. Wladimir Klitschko - 416 points
10. Mike Tyson - 377 points
11. Joe Frazier - 353 points
12. Tyson Fury - 342 points
13. Sonny Liston - 284 points
14. Vitali Klitschko - 265 points
15. Tommy Morrison - 241 points
16. Anthony Joshua - 223 Points
17. Deontay Wilder - 221 points
18. Oleksandr Usyk - 211 points
19. Ken Norton - 139 points
20. Frank Bruno - 130 points
21. Fabio Wardley - 110 points

[gilgamesh]

I thought it'd be a nice touch to have any of the notable names of today on the list as well so that we can watch how it affects their numbers, and their all time rating in real time, I've got everybody of note covered for now except Joseph Parker and Daniel Dubois. I guess I gotta get Andy Ruiz too, but I'm more concerned with finishing up watching everything of Hearns, Duran, Barrera, Morales and Juan Manuel Marquez.

After all those, I'm gonna take a break from watching Boxing unless it's live for a solid month or so because my eyes are bleeding from watching so many f*cking fights

[keithmoonhangover]

I thought it'd be a nice touch to have any of the notable names of today on the list as well so that we can watch how it affects their numbers, and their all time rating in real time, I've got everybody of note covered for now except Joseph Parker and Daniel Dubois. I guess I gotta get Andy Ruiz too, but I'm more concerned with finishing up watching everything of Hearns, Duran, Barrera, Morales and Juan Manuel Marquez.

After all those, I'm gonna take a break from watching Boxing unless it's live for a solid month or so because my eyes are bleeding from watching so many f*cking fights

[gilgamesh]

Oh and for the record this is how I score any fights that there's no video of.

All fights that weren't important enough for anybody to record it, the guy is considered a bum by default. Before everyone gets all up in arms let me say I realize this is not the case for all eras, but it is pretty much the case for the modern era, and that's primarily where my focus is for right now. So it works for my purposes as far as rating all these guys goes, and it simplifies things for me.

I divvy out the points for Non video bouts thusly.

1 point = A KO or Decision win over a guy with a Losing record
2 points = A decision over a guy with a winning record
3 points = A KO win over a guy with a winning record

Oh and one other little thing for people that actually care about the excruciating level of detail I've put into all this. For a guy's first 5 bouts I consider him a Novice and therefore give him 2 points or 3 points for any Decision or KO win as the case may be, but after 5 bouts they're penalized a point or 2 for feeding on losers.

[1116478]

So the guy who thinks there's only 'about 20' guys in heavyweight history who can beat Deontay Wilder has now devised a system that ranks Inouye, who is not proven against ATGs, over Leonard, who is proven against multiple ATGs...

I'll leave you to it.

I sent you a PM, thanks in advance for your response.