gil's Refined Ranking System

[gilgamesh]

An update to the math on a few fighters.

Ken Norton's win over Muhammad Ali is obviously of a higher quality than a win over Quarry, and has been upgraded to a Non Title All Time Great win, and nets Ken an additional 30 points to his score.

Upon looking into Stephen Fulton's career further, I realize I may have jumped the gun in considering Naoya Inoue's win over him as a Gold Star victory under my system. Fulton isn't quite up to snuff when it comes to Gold Star opponent quality, he's good, but he's not THAT good. So this correction will result in 40 points being removed from Naoya Inoue's overall score.

Ken Norton's score now comes to 169 points, Naoya Inoue's score now comes to 626 points.

The only cases I've come across so far of an All Time Great win in a Non Title bout are Ken Norton over Muhammad Ali and Erik Morales over Manny Pacquiao.

[gilgamesh]

My all time favorite fighter, and one of the all time great action fighters.

Arturo "Thunder" Gatti

With a record of 40-9 with 31 KO's. He competed in 9 Championship fights going 7-2 in them. He has 5 Quality wins (Tracy Harris Patterson 2x, Wilson Rodriguez, Gabriel Ruelas and Leonard Dorin)

He finishes with an overall score of 137 points

I'm glad Gatti will get to enjoy a brief stay in my P4P Top 20 list by default until I add many more names with most of them overtaking his score. Nevertheless...Arturo will always be my personal favorite and the fighter most responsible for making me a fan, and that's worth a lot to me.

[gilgamesh]

Erik "El Terrible" Morales

With a record of 52-9 (36 KO's). He competed in 19 Championship fights going 16-3 in them. He has 9 Quality wins (Daniel Zaragoza, Junior Jones, Marco Antonio Barrera, Kevin Kelley, Guty Espadas 2x, In Jin Chi, Paulie Ayala, Jesus Chavez and Manny Pacquiao)

He has 1 All Time Great win (Barrera) and 1 All Time Great Non Title win (Pacquiao). Amazingly his trilogy with Manny Pacquiao was all fought in Non title fights. Surely the highest profile trilogy of the modern era where this is the case, and an interesting little footnote in their storied careers.

His overall score comes to 320 points

[gilgamesh]

Felix "Tito" Trinidad

With a record of 42-3 (35 KO's). Tito competed in 20 Championship fights going 19-1 in them. He has wins over 11 Quality opponents (Maurice Blocker, Hector Camacho, Oba Carr, Yory Boy Campas, Freddie Pendleton, Pernell Whitaker, Oscar De La Hoya, David Reid, Fernando Vargas, William Joppy and Ricardo Mayorga)

He has 2 Gold star wins (Whitaker and Vargas)

His overall score comes to 385 points

[gilgamesh]

Wilfred "El Radar" Benitez

With a record of 53-8-1 (32 KO's). He competed in 10 Championship fights, and went 8-2 in them. He has 12 Quality wins (Antonio Cervantes, Tony Petronelli, Mel Dennis, Bruce Curry 2x, Randy Shields, Carlos Palomino, Harold Weston 2, Tony Chiaverini, Pete Ranzany, Maurice Hope, and Roberto Duran)

He has 2 Gold star wins (Antonio Cervantes, Carlos Palomino)
1 All Time Great win (Roberto Duran

His overall score comes to 294 points

[gilgamesh]

Thomas "The Hitman" Hearns

With a record of 61-5-1 (48 KO's). He competed in 18 World Championship fights going 14-3-1 in them.

He has 9 Quality wins (Pipino Cuevas, Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran, Murray Sutherland, Dennis Andries, Virgil Hill, Juan Roldan, Luigi Minchillo, and Harold Weston)

He has 2 Gold star wins (Cuevas and Benitez) and 1 All Time Great win (Duran)

His overall score comes to 551 points

[p4p1]

Question Gil, how do you allow for the being more champions the closer we get to the current year.
IE let’s say in the 60s a guy ranked as the top challenger fights the guy ranked 3rd. There is obviously no championship fight bonus. But if the IBF champ who’s ranked #5 by the ring takes on the 8th guy

First scenario
Highly ranked opponent (4 points) very good fight (4 points) for a total of 8 points.

Second scenario
Ranked contender (3 points) very good fight (4 points) plus championship bonus (5 points) for 12 points.

Obviously it’s probably essentially just a rounding error for the greats.

How would you Ezzard Charles who beat HOF fighters Burley, Maxim, Moore, Marshall, Bivins in non-title fights. Those fights would all deserve more points than his victories over Valentino, Barone, Lesnavich etc. some of them significantly more given the opposition and the point in their careers.

[gilgamesh]

Question Gil, how do you allow for the being more champions the closer we get to the current year.
IE let’s say in the 60s a guy ranked as the top challenger fights the guy ranked 3rd. There is obviously no championship fight bonus. But if the IBF champ who’s ranked #5 by the ring takes on the 8th guy

First scenario
Highly ranked opponent (4 points) very good fight (4 points) for a total of 8 points.

Second scenario
Ranked contender (3 points) very good fight (4 points) plus championship bonus (5 points) for 12 points.

Obviously it’s probably essentially just a rounding error for the greats.

How would you Ezzard Charles who beat HOF fighters Burley, Maxim, Moore, Marshall, Bivins in non-title fights. Those fights would all deserve more points than his victories over Valentino, Barone, Lesnavich etc. some of them significantly more given the opposition and the point in their careers.

Particularly big wins receive what I call Gold Star status, and get a large bonus. Gold Star non title bout would net a fighter 30 points. An All Time Great Non Title win would be 60 points. Either one of these is exceptionally rare in the modern era, but as you say would be more commonplace in say the 1960's on back.

The benefit the guys from this era have though is that since there was only 1 Championship, any Champion in that era is Undisputed. Undisputed titles are worth more than Fractured ones.

I haven't done a ton of guys from the Black and White TV days yet, but I'll eventually get around to work them in. I'm wanting to focus on the biggest names of the last 50 years or so first, and then branch out from there. I just kinda had to do Joe Louis though for the sake of my Heavyweight list because seeing anything other than Ali and Louis in the #1 and #2 spots just feels wrong.

[gilgamesh]

To cite a specific example you asked about. Charles beating Archie Moore would surely be All Time Great Non Title wins.

Max Schmeling beating Joe Louis also would qualify as an All Time Great non title victory. An All TIme Great victory is pretty undeniable title or no title. The Championship Belt always gives a big win that little something extra, but at the end of the day a truly great win is worth more than just a run of the mill title bout over a mediocre opponent.

[p4p1]

Question Gil, how do you allow for the being more champions the closer we get to the current year.
IE let’s say in the 60s a guy ranked as the top challenger fights the guy ranked 3rd. There is obviously no championship fight bonus. But if the IBF champ who’s ranked #5 by the ring takes on the 8th guy

First scenario
Highly ranked opponent (4 points) very good fight (4 points) for a total of 8 points.

Second scenario
Ranked contender (3 points) very good fight (4 points) plus championship bonus (5 points) for 12 points.

Obviously it’s probably essentially just a rounding error for the greats.

How would you Ezzard Charles who beat HOF fighters Burley, Maxim, Moore, Marshall, Bivins in non-title fights. Those fights would all deserve more points than his victories over Valentino, Barone, Lesnavich etc. some of them significantly more given the opposition and the point in their careers.

Particularly big wins receive what I call Gold Star status, and get a large bonus. Gold Star non title bout would net a fighter 30 points. An All Time Great Non Title win would be 60 points. Either one of these is exceptionally rare in the modern era, but as you say would be more commonplace in say the 1960's on back.

The benefit the guys from this era have though is that since there was only 1 Championship, any Champion in that era is Undisputed. Undisputed titles are worth more than Fractured ones.

I haven't done a ton of guys from the Black and White TV days yet, but I'll eventually get around to work them in. I'm wanting to focus on the biggest names of the last 50 years or so first, and then branch out from there. I just kinda had to do Joe Louis though for the sake of my Heavyweight list because seeing anything other than Ali and Louis in the #1 and #2 spots just feels wrong.

That makes perfect sense.

[p4p1]

To cite a specific example you asked about. Charles beating Archie Moore would surely be All Time Great Non Title wins.

Max Schmeling beating Joe Louis also would qualify as an All Time Great non title victory. An All TIme Great victory is pretty undeniable title or no title. The Championship Belt always gives a big win that little something extra, but at the end of the day a truly great win is worth more than just a run of the mill title bout over a mediocre opponent.

[gilgamesh]

Took forever and a day to get through the whole career worth of video on this one, but here we go.

"Manos de Piedra" Roberto Duran

With a record of 103-16 (70). He competed in 25 Championship fights with a record of 19-6 in them. He has 17 Quality wins (Hiroshi Kobayashi, Ken Buchanan, Hector Thompson, Guts Ishimatsu, Esteban De Jesus 2x, Ray Lampkin, Edwin Viruet 2x, Lou Bizzarro, Vilomar Fernandez, Davey Moore, Carlos Palomino, Ray Leonard, Pipino Cuevas, Iran Barkley and Jorge Castro).

He has 1 All Time Great win (Sugar Ray Leonard 1) and 5 Gold Star wins, 3 Championship (Esteban De Jesus 2x, Iran Barkley) and 2 Non Title (Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas)

His overall score comes to 636 points

Roberto Duran has the unique distinction of having competed in 5 separate decades. The 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, 1990's, and 2000's.

[gilgamesh]

Julio Cesar Chavez

With a record of 107-6-2 (85 KO's). He competed in 37 World Championship fights with a record of 31-4-2. To my knowledge this is the record for Championship bouts competed in or won by any fighter.

He has 20 Quality wins (Ruben Castillo, Roger Mayweather 2x, Rocky Lockridge, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Meldrick Taylor 2x, Hector Camacho, Greg Haugen, Lonnie Smith, Juan La Porte, Terrence Alli, John Duplessis, Dwight Pratchett, Sammy Fuentes, Tony Lopez, Frankie Mitchell and Frankie Randall 2x)

4 Gold Star victories (Edwin Rosario, Meldrick Taylor 2x, Hector Camacho)

His overall score comes to 733 points

[gilgamesh]

This is how my lists shape up after all that I've covered thus far.

Heavyweight
1. Muhammad Ali - 1107 points
2. Joe Louis - 899 points
3. George Foreman - 694 points
4. Larry Holmes - 576 points
5. Rocky Marciano - 474 points
6. Lennox Lewis - 470 Points
7. Evander Holyfield - 466 Points
8. Riddick Bowe - 448 points
9. Wladimir Klitschko - 416 points
10. Mike Tyson - 377 points
11. Joe Frazier - 353 points
12. Tyson Fury - 342 points
13. Sonny Liston - 284 points
14. Vitali Klitschko - 265 points
15. Tommy Morrison - 241 points
16. Anthony Joshua - 223 Points
17. Deontay Wilder - 221 points
18. Oleksandr Usyk - 211 points
19. Ken Norton - 169 points
20. Frank Bruno - 130 points
21. Fabio Wardley - 110 points

P4P
1. Manny Pacquiao - 903 points
2. Evander Holyfield - 779 points
3. Julio Cesar Chavez - 733 points
4. Floyd Mayweather Jr. - 656 points
5. Roberto Duran - 636 points
6. Naoya Inoue - 626 points
7. Ray Leonard - 606 Points
8. Marvin Hagler - 587 Points
9. Terence Crawford - 557 Points
10. Tommy Hearns - 551 Points
11. Oscar De La Hoya - 540 Points
12. Roy Jones Jr. - 524 Points
13. Oleksandr Usyk - 447 points
14. Michael Spinks - 418 points
15 (tied). Naseem Hamed - 385 points
15 (tied). Felix Trinidad - 385 points
17. Vasyl Lomachenko - 346 points
18. Erik Morales - 320 points
19. Wilfred Benitez - 294 points
20. Arturo Gatti - 137 points

All Time Top 10
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Manny Pacquiao
3. Joe Louis
4. Evander Holyfield
5. George Foreman
6. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
7. Roberto Duran
8. Naoya Inoue
9. Ray Leonard
10. Marvin Hagler

Many big names still to cover. All will take their rightful place in the list in due time.

[keithmoonhangover]

Refined Ranking System Explanation

As we know we have the points system here in the ratings on Boxrec, but we don't really know the rhyme or reason for who has what points or why for certain wins right? Well I will explain in great detail the system I've concocted here, and how I've arrived at the points I have.

I will rate the level of opposition the fighters faced on a level from 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = Bum (A guy with a losing record, or a mediocre record while on an extensive losing streak)
1 = A guy with more wins than losses, but usually can't get it done at a particularly high level
2 = A fringe contender. Think Top 25-Top 15ish kinda guy
3 = A Ranked Contender or Former Champion who wasn't considered a major titleholder
4 = A Highly Ranked Contender or still credible Former Champion
5 = A Hall of Famer, or Reigning Champion...generally in their prime.

I will rate the level of performance on a scale of 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = F*CKING SUCKED (This rating is saved for truly abysmal fights. Think Byrd vs Davarryl Williamson, or Fury vs Wlad)
1 = Dud (This rating is for a fight that provided maybe 1 or 2 interesting moments in an otherwise forgetable bout)
2 = Kinda Boring (This rating is for fights that just kinda become one sided, and clinical with neither fighter pressing)
3 = Good Fight (A kinda standard fight. Not the most memorable thing in the world, but nothing embarassing either)
4 = Very Good Fight (A competitive bout with some major highlight reel moments, but falls short of the standard set by 5)
5 = Great Fight or Great Performance (Either a Fight of the Year candidate or otherwise very memorable action bout, or a great, and exciting victory with an emphatic finish.)

And finally we come to Bonuses Award for Championship wins or Deductions taken from Losses, which goes like this.

Losses
Split or Majority Decision Losses = -5 points
Unanimous Decision Losses = -10
KO/DQ losses = -20, or -30 depending on the circumstance (An extra 10 is deducted for a particularly one sided or otherwise embarrassing defeat)
Valiant Defeat = +10 (This is a rare occurrence in a loss, and can only be given in a case 1 Fighter lost a Great fight to another Great fighter. The Fight itself has to be a Perfect 10)

Note: A loss would only be classified as a Valiant Defeat under rare circumstances. Think Holyfield losing to Bowe, Bowe losing to Holyfield or Frazier losing to Ali in the Thrilla in Manilla. It's a rare fight where a fighter comes out with his legacy raised after a loss, but it can happen.

Draws
In the case of Draws the Points for the bout will be given to each fighter respectively.

Controversial Decisions
In the case of Controversial Decisions, a fighter suffering a Loss or Draw where the consensus is that he deserved the win will be credited with the points of the bout, he is unfortunately robbed of his Championship bonus though since whether we like it or not the official result does sort of effect people's memory.

As we know all controversial bouts are not created equal either. There's outright robberies, and there's some that are simply close bouts that could've gone either way. I try my best to properly make the distinction when ranking a fighter according to my own educated opinion as well as the consensus of Boxing fans and Writers.

Championship wins
Winning 1 Miscellaneous Alphabet Belt or Defending It = +5 points
Winning a Unified Championship Bout or Defending a Unified Title = +10 points
Winning an Undisputed/Lineal Championship Bout or Defending = +20 points
A Gold Star Win (A Great win over a Great Fighter in a Championship Bout) = +50 Points
An All Time Great Win (Beating a Hall of Fame Fighter either in his prime or while overcoming some severe disadvantage) = +100 points
A Non Title Gold Star Win = +30

Gold Star wins require the Fight to have a score of 9 or 10 (Very High quality of opposition and Performance). All Time Platinum wins can only be Perfect 10's (The Highest Possible level of opposition and Performance)

Do you make any allowances for which stage of their career as boxers is when he wins or loses?

[gilgamesh]

Refined Ranking System Explanation

As we know we have the points system here in the ratings on Boxrec, but we don't really know the rhyme or reason for who has what points or why for certain wins right? Well I will explain in great detail the system I've concocted here, and how I've arrived at the points I have.

I will rate the level of opposition the fighters faced on a level from 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = Bum (A guy with a losing record, or a mediocre record while on an extensive losing streak)
1 = A guy with more wins than losses, but usually can't get it done at a particularly high level
2 = A fringe contender. Think Top 25-Top 15ish kinda guy
3 = A Ranked Contender or Former Champion who wasn't considered a major titleholder
4 = A Highly Ranked Contender or still credible Former Champion
5 = A Hall of Famer, or Reigning Champion...generally in their prime.

I will rate the level of performance on a scale of 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = F*CKING SUCKED (This rating is saved for truly abysmal fights. Think Byrd vs Davarryl Williamson, or Fury vs Wlad)
1 = Dud (This rating is for a fight that provided maybe 1 or 2 interesting moments in an otherwise forgetable bout)
2 = Kinda Boring (This rating is for fights that just kinda become one sided, and clinical with neither fighter pressing)
3 = Good Fight (A kinda standard fight. Not the most memorable thing in the world, but nothing embarassing either)
4 = Very Good Fight (A competitive bout with some major highlight reel moments, but falls short of the standard set by 5)
5 = Great Fight or Great Performance (Either a Fight of the Year candidate or otherwise very memorable action bout, or a great, and exciting victory with an emphatic finish.)

And finally we come to Bonuses Award for Championship wins or Deductions taken from Losses, which goes like this.

Losses
Split or Majority Decision Losses = -5 points
Unanimous Decision Losses = -10
KO/DQ losses = -20, or -30 depending on the circumstance (An extra 10 is deducted for a particularly one sided or otherwise embarrassing defeat)
Valiant Defeat = +10 (This is a rare occurrence in a loss, and can only be given in a case 1 Fighter lost a Great fight to another Great fighter. The Fight itself has to be a Perfect 10)

Note: A loss would only be classified as a Valiant Defeat under rare circumstances. Think Holyfield losing to Bowe, Bowe losing to Holyfield or Frazier losing to Ali in the Thrilla in Manilla. It's a rare fight where a fighter comes out with his legacy raised after a loss, but it can happen.

Draws
In the case of Draws the Points for the bout will be given to each fighter respectively.

Controversial Decisions
In the case of Controversial Decisions, a fighter suffering a Loss or Draw where the consensus is that he deserved the win will be credited with the points of the bout, he is unfortunately robbed of his Championship bonus though since whether we like it or not the official result does sort of effect people's memory.

As we know all controversial bouts are not created equal either. There's outright robberies, and there's some that are simply close bouts that could've gone either way. I try my best to properly make the distinction when ranking a fighter according to my own educated opinion as well as the consensus of Boxing fans and Writers.

Championship wins
Winning 1 Miscellaneous Alphabet Belt or Defending It = +5 points
Winning a Unified Championship Bout or Defending a Unified Title = +10 points
Winning an Undisputed/Lineal Championship Bout or Defending = +20 points
A Gold Star Win (A Great win over a Great Fighter in a Championship Bout) = +50 Points
An All Time Great Win (Beating a Hall of Fame Fighter either in his prime or while overcoming some severe disadvantage) = +100 points
A Non Title Gold Star Win = +30

Gold Star wins require the Fight to have a score of 9 or 10 (Very High quality of opposition and Performance). All Time Platinum wins can only be Perfect 10's (The Highest Possible level of opposition and Performance)

Do you make any allowances for which stage of their career as boxers is when he wins or loses?

A fighter who was once A 5 may be demoted to a 4 when he's well past his prime. A fighter who was once a 4 can be denoted to 3.

You'd have to be well, well past it before I'd consider you to be a lesser man to have beaten though. I don't write a guy off after 1 or 2 losses just automatically.

[keithmoonhangover]

Refined Ranking System Explanation

As we know we have the points system here in the ratings on Boxrec, but we don't really know the rhyme or reason for who has what points or why for certain wins right? Well I will explain in great detail the system I've concocted here, and how I've arrived at the points I have.

I will rate the level of opposition the fighters faced on a level from 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = Bum (A guy with a losing record, or a mediocre record while on an extensive losing streak)
1 = A guy with more wins than losses, but usually can't get it done at a particularly high level
2 = A fringe contender. Think Top 25-Top 15ish kinda guy
3 = A Ranked Contender or Former Champion who wasn't considered a major titleholder
4 = A Highly Ranked Contender or still credible Former Champion
5 = A Hall of Famer, or Reigning Champion...generally in their prime.

I will rate the level of performance on a scale of 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = F*CKING SUCKED (This rating is saved for truly abysmal fights. Think Byrd vs Davarryl Williamson, or Fury vs Wlad)
1 = Dud (This rating is for a fight that provided maybe 1 or 2 interesting moments in an otherwise forgetable bout)
2 = Kinda Boring (This rating is for fights that just kinda become one sided, and clinical with neither fighter pressing)
3 = Good Fight (A kinda standard fight. Not the most memorable thing in the world, but nothing embarassing either)
4 = Very Good Fight (A competitive bout with some major highlight reel moments, but falls short of the standard set by 5)
5 = Great Fight or Great Performance (Either a Fight of the Year candidate or otherwise very memorable action bout, or a great, and exciting victory with an emphatic finish.)

And finally we come to Bonuses Award for Championship wins or Deductions taken from Losses, which goes like this.

Losses
Split or Majority Decision Losses = -5 points
Unanimous Decision Losses = -10
KO/DQ losses = -20, or -30 depending on the circumstance (An extra 10 is deducted for a particularly one sided or otherwise embarrassing defeat)
Valiant Defeat = +10 (This is a rare occurrence in a loss, and can only be given in a case 1 Fighter lost a Great fight to another Great fighter. The Fight itself has to be a Perfect 10)

Note: A loss would only be classified as a Valiant Defeat under rare circumstances. Think Holyfield losing to Bowe, Bowe losing to Holyfield or Frazier losing to Ali in the Thrilla in Manilla. It's a rare fight where a fighter comes out with his legacy raised after a loss, but it can happen.

Draws
In the case of Draws the Points for the bout will be given to each fighter respectively.

Controversial Decisions
In the case of Controversial Decisions, a fighter suffering a Loss or Draw where the consensus is that he deserved the win will be credited with the points of the bout, he is unfortunately robbed of his Championship bonus though since whether we like it or not the official result does sort of effect people's memory.

As we know all controversial bouts are not created equal either. There's outright robberies, and there's some that are simply close bouts that could've gone either way. I try my best to properly make the distinction when ranking a fighter according to my own educated opinion as well as the consensus of Boxing fans and Writers.

Championship wins
Winning 1 Miscellaneous Alphabet Belt or Defending It = +5 points
Winning a Unified Championship Bout or Defending a Unified Title = +10 points
Winning an Undisputed/Lineal Championship Bout or Defending = +20 points
A Gold Star Win (A Great win over a Great Fighter in a Championship Bout) = +50 Points
An All Time Great Win (Beating a Hall of Fame Fighter either in his prime or while overcoming some severe disadvantage) = +100 points
A Non Title Gold Star Win = +30

Gold Star wins require the Fight to have a score of 9 or 10 (Very High quality of opposition and Performance). All Time Platinum wins can only be Perfect 10's (The Highest Possible level of opposition and Performance)

Do you make any allowances for which stage of their career as boxers is when he wins or loses?

A fighter who was once A 5 may be demoted to a 4 when he's well past his prime. A fighter who was once a 4 can be denoted to 3.

You'd have to be well, well past it before I'd consider you to be a lesser man to have beaten though. I don't write a guy off after 1 or 2 losses just automatically.

As an example, how did you score Tyson's losses?

[gilgamesh]

Do you make any allowances for which stage of their career as boxers is when he wins or loses?

A fighter who was once A 5 may be demoted to a 4 when he's well past his prime. A fighter who was once a 4 can be denoted to 3.

You'd have to be well, well past it before I'd consider you to be a lesser man to have beaten though. I don't write a guy off after 1 or 2 losses just automatically.

As an example, how did you score Tyson's losses?

Buster Douglas - L KO 10 (-30 points) due to the fact that it was a particularly embarrassing upset defeat

Evander Holyfield - L TKO 11 (-10 points) due to the fact that it was a great fight, and one of the best of the year Tyson only loses 10 instead of 20

Evander Holyfield - L DQ 3 (-30 points) due to the unusual and particularly embarrassing nature of this defeat it's -30.

Lennox Lewis - L KO 8 (-20 points) A standard KO loss. -20

Danny Williams - L KO 4 (-30 points) An embarrassing KO loss -30

Kevin McBride - L TKO 6 (-30 points) An embarrassing TKO loss -30

And as a Professional courtesy I simply ignored the Jake Paul farce in his Final score.

[keithmoonhangover]

A fighter who was once A 5 may be demoted to a 4 when he's well past his prime. A fighter who was once a 4 can be denoted to 3.

You'd have to be well, well past it before I'd consider you to be a lesser man to have beaten though. I don't write a guy off after 1 or 2 losses just automatically.

As an example, how did you score Tyson's losses?

Buster Douglas - L KO 10 (-30 points) due to the fact that it was a particularly embarrassing upset defeat

Evander Holyfield - L TKO 11 (-10 points) due to the fact that it was a great fight, and one of the best of the year Tyson only loses 10 instead of 20

Evander Holyfield - L DQ 3 (-30 points) due to the unusual and particularly embarrassing nature of this defeat it's -30.

Lennox Lewis - L KO 8 (-20 points) A standard KO loss. -20

Danny Williams - L KO 4 (-30 points) An embarrassing KO loss -30

Kevin McBride - L TKO 6 (-30 points) An embarrassing TKO loss -30

And as a Professional courtesy I simply ignored the Jake Paul farce in his Final score.

For me, the McBride and Williams losses don't harm his career at all. He was shot to pieces, so they pretty much don't count for me. A bit like Leonard and Camacho or Ali vs Holmes.

[gilgamesh]

As an example, how did you score Tyson's losses?

Buster Douglas - L KO 10 (-30 points) due to the fact that it was a particularly embarrassing upset defeat

Evander Holyfield - L TKO 11 (-10 points) due to the fact that it was a great fight, and one of the best of the year Tyson only loses 10 instead of 20

Evander Holyfield - L DQ 3 (-30 points) due to the unusual and particularly embarrassing nature of this defeat it's -30.

Lennox Lewis - L KO 8 (-20 points) A standard KO loss. -20

Danny Williams - L KO 4 (-30 points) An embarrassing KO loss -30

Kevin McBride - L TKO 6 (-30 points) An embarrassing TKO loss -30

And as a Professional courtesy I simply ignored the Jake Paul farce in his Final score.

For me, the McBride and Williams losses don't harm his career at all. He was shot to pieces, so they pretty much don't count for me. A bit like Leonard and Camacho or Ali vs Holmes.

For me. It all counts. If you stepped in the ring, you were telling the public that you were still a fighter and you think you can beat this man, and if it turns out you were wrong you take your L's the same as you take your W's.

You could make the argument however that I'm being too harsh on him by considering them "embarrassing" defeats, because I've considered that myself, but I stand by that because Kevin McBride and Danny Williams were both Level 1 opponents who never in a Million years should've gotten a win over Tyson. Certainly not a KO win.

And frankly other former Champions even older than Mike like say George Foreman or Larry Holmes...they never lost to guys like that. You see what I mean? So they get their credit for being able to do in old age what Mike couldn't, and what many others couldn't.

Your career isn't over just because you're past your prime.

[gilgamesh]

I'm working on adding Canelo to the list now. At some point I wanna do Ingemar Johansson and Tim Bradley that way we have the supposed "Low bar" for Hall of Fame entry as part of my list.

I expect Tim Bradley will wind up with a higher score than Arturo Gatti though honestly.

Any fighters who you'd like to see where they wind up mention 'em, and I'll get around to 'em faster probably.

[p4p1]

Refined Ranking System Explanation

As we know we have the points system here in the ratings on Boxrec, but we don't really know the rhyme or reason for who has what points or why for certain wins right? Well I will explain in great detail the system I've concocted here, and how I've arrived at the points I have.

I will rate the level of opposition the fighters faced on a level from 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = Bum (A guy with a losing record, or a mediocre record while on an extensive losing streak)
1 = A guy with more wins than losses, but usually can't get it done at a particularly high level
2 = A fringe contender. Think Top 25-Top 15ish kinda guy
3 = A Ranked Contender or Former Champion who wasn't considered a major titleholder
4 = A Highly Ranked Contender or still credible Former Champion
5 = A Hall of Famer, or Reigning Champion...generally in their prime.

I will rate the level of performance on a scale of 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = F*CKING SUCKED (This rating is saved for truly abysmal fights. Think Byrd vs Davarryl Williamson, or Fury vs Wlad)
1 = Dud (This rating is for a fight that provided maybe 1 or 2 interesting moments in an otherwise forgetable bout)
2 = Kinda Boring (This rating is for fights that just kinda become one sided, and clinical with neither fighter pressing)
3 = Good Fight (A kinda standard fight. Not the most memorable thing in the world, but nothing embarassing either)
4 = Very Good Fight (A competitive bout with some major highlight reel moments, but falls short of the standard set by 5)
5 = Great Fight or Great Performance (Either a Fight of the Year candidate or otherwise very memorable action bout, or a great, and exciting victory with an emphatic finish.)

And finally we come to Bonuses Award for Championship wins or Deductions taken from Losses, which goes like this.

Losses
Split or Majority Decision Losses = -5 points
Unanimous Decision Losses = -10
KO/DQ losses = -20, or -30 depending on the circumstance (An extra 10 is deducted for a particularly one sided or otherwise embarrassing defeat)
Valiant Defeat = +10 (This is a rare occurrence in a loss, and can only be given in a case 1 Fighter lost a Great fight to another Great fighter. The Fight itself has to be a Perfect 10)

Note: A loss would only be classified as a Valiant Defeat under rare circumstances. Think Holyfield losing to Bowe, Bowe losing to Holyfield or Frazier losing to Ali in the Thrilla in Manilla. It's a rare fight where a fighter comes out with his legacy raised after a loss, but it can happen.

Draws
In the case of Draws the Points for the bout will be given to each fighter respectively.

Controversial Decisions
In the case of Controversial Decisions, a fighter suffering a Loss or Draw where the consensus is that he deserved the win will be credited with the points of the bout, he is unfortunately robbed of his Championship bonus though since whether we like it or not the official result does sort of effect people's memory.

As we know all controversial bouts are not created equal either. There's outright robberies, and there's some that are simply close bouts that could've gone either way. I try my best to properly make the distinction when ranking a fighter according to my own educated opinion as well as the consensus of Boxing fans and Writers.

Championship wins
Winning 1 Miscellaneous Alphabet Belt or Defending It = +5 points
Winning a Unified Championship Bout or Defending a Unified Title = +10 points
Winning an Undisputed/Lineal Championship Bout or Defending = +20 points
A Gold Star Win (A Great win over a Great Fighter in a Championship Bout) = +50 Points
An All Time Great Win (Beating a Hall of Fame Fighter either in his prime or while overcoming some severe disadvantage) = +100 points
A Non Title Gold Star Win = +30

Gold Star wins require the Fight to have a score of 9 or 10 (Very High quality of opposition and Performance). All Time Platinum wins can only be Perfect 10's (The Highest Possible level of opposition and Performance)

Sorry to bump this post again Gil.
Do you stack points on each other? IE Leonard vs Hagler as is being talked about in another thread.
Does Leonard get 20 points for winning an undisputed championship fight + another 100 or 50 for an ATG win or Gold Star win for a total of 120/70?

[gilgamesh]

Refined Ranking System Explanation

As we know we have the points system here in the ratings on Boxrec, but we don't really know the rhyme or reason for who has what points or why for certain wins right? Well I will explain in great detail the system I've concocted here, and how I've arrived at the points I have.

I will rate the level of opposition the fighters faced on a level from 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = Bum (A guy with a losing record, or a mediocre record while on an extensive losing streak)
1 = A guy with more wins than losses, but usually can't get it done at a particularly high level
2 = A fringe contender. Think Top 25-Top 15ish kinda guy
3 = A Ranked Contender or Former Champion who wasn't considered a major titleholder
4 = A Highly Ranked Contender or still credible Former Champion
5 = A Hall of Famer, or Reigning Champion...generally in their prime.

I will rate the level of performance on a scale of 0-5 with the ratings being as follows.

0 = F*CKING SUCKED (This rating is saved for truly abysmal fights. Think Byrd vs Davarryl Williamson, or Fury vs Wlad)
1 = Dud (This rating is for a fight that provided maybe 1 or 2 interesting moments in an otherwise forgetable bout)
2 = Kinda Boring (This rating is for fights that just kinda become one sided, and clinical with neither fighter pressing)
3 = Good Fight (A kinda standard fight. Not the most memorable thing in the world, but nothing embarassing either)
4 = Very Good Fight (A competitive bout with some major highlight reel moments, but falls short of the standard set by 5)
5 = Great Fight or Great Performance (Either a Fight of the Year candidate or otherwise very memorable action bout, or a great, and exciting victory with an emphatic finish.)

And finally we come to Bonuses Award for Championship wins or Deductions taken from Losses, which goes like this.

Losses
Split or Majority Decision Losses = -5 points
Unanimous Decision Losses = -10
KO/DQ losses = -20, or -30 depending on the circumstance (An extra 10 is deducted for a particularly one sided or otherwise embarrassing defeat)
Valiant Defeat = +10 (This is a rare occurrence in a loss, and can only be given in a case 1 Fighter lost a Great fight to another Great fighter. The Fight itself has to be a Perfect 10)

Note: A loss would only be classified as a Valiant Defeat under rare circumstances. Think Holyfield losing to Bowe, Bowe losing to Holyfield or Frazier losing to Ali in the Thrilla in Manilla. It's a rare fight where a fighter comes out with his legacy raised after a loss, but it can happen.

Draws
In the case of Draws the Points for the bout will be given to each fighter respectively.

Controversial Decisions
In the case of Controversial Decisions, a fighter suffering a Loss or Draw where the consensus is that he deserved the win will be credited with the points of the bout, he is unfortunately robbed of his Championship bonus though since whether we like it or not the official result does sort of effect people's memory.

As we know all controversial bouts are not created equal either. There's outright robberies, and there's some that are simply close bouts that could've gone either way. I try my best to properly make the distinction when ranking a fighter according to my own educated opinion as well as the consensus of Boxing fans and Writers.

Championship wins
Winning 1 Miscellaneous Alphabet Belt or Defending It = +5 points
Winning a Unified Championship Bout or Defending a Unified Title = +10 points
Winning an Undisputed/Lineal Championship Bout or Defending = +20 points
A Gold Star Win (A Great win over a Great Fighter in a Championship Bout) = +50 Points
An All Time Great Win (Beating a Hall of Fame Fighter either in his prime or while overcoming some severe disadvantage) = +100 points
A Non Title Gold Star Win = +30

Gold Star wins require the Fight to have a score of 9 or 10 (Very High quality of opposition and Performance). All Time Platinum wins can only be Perfect 10's (The Highest Possible level of opposition and Performance)

Sorry to bump this post again Gil.
Do you stack points on each other? IE Leonard vs Hagler as is being talked about in another thread.
Does Leonard get 20 points for winning an undisputed championship fight + another 100 or 50 for an ATG win or Gold Star win for a total of 120/70?

No if a fight is upgraded to a Gold Star or All Star win, the Championship status is included as part of that.

A +5, +10 or +20 would be the standard for a Championship win depending on whether or not we're talking about 1 Title, A Unified Title or an Undisputed Title.

Fighters who makes Multiple title defenses of any Undisputed Crown tend to be rare.

In the case of a Gold Star or All Time bonus however, I would reward them the respective points for the fight itself along with the bonus. So an All Time Win probably nets the winner 110 points since he beat a Level 5 opponent in a 5 star fight.

A Gold star win could possibly be rewarded where a guy winds up getting 59 points, but 60 points is also possible there as well.

[gilgamesh]

Ingemar "Ingo" Johansson

With a record of 26-2 (17 KO's). Johansson competed in 3 Heavyweight Championship fights with a record of 1-2 in them. He has 3 Quality wins (Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson, Brian London)

His overall score comes to 113 points

[gilgamesh]

"Terrible" Tim Witherspoon

With a record of 55-13-1 (38 KO's). He competed in 6 Championship fights with a record of 3-3 in them. He beat 5 Quality opponents (Tony Tubbs, Frank Bruno, Carl Williams, Bonecrusher Smith, Greg Page)

His overall score comes to 94 points

Note: His losses to Larry Holmes and Ray Mercer were both very close, and questionable decisions. I don't personally disagree with the judges, but an argument could easily be made in either case.