All of Marcianos opponents ..

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 09 Jul 2003, 07:48

I thought I would list all of Marcianos opponents with there records coming into the fight. (wins-losses-draw).

What can't speak can't lie ! !

1) Lee Epperson 0-0-0
Both making their debuts. Only fight Epperson had.

2) Harry Bilazarian 0-3-0
Lost all 3 previous fights by 1st round KO’s. Retired 3 fights later.

3) John Edwards 0-1-0
Lost previous, and only, fight by 1st round KO. Retired after fighting Marciano having never won a fight.

4) Bobby Quinn 8-0-0 (5 KO’s)
Had 12 more fights after Marciano winning 9 before retiring.

5) Eddie Ross 15-0-1 (14 KO’s)
Lost 3 of his next 5 fights then retired.

6) Jimmy Weeks 0-0-0
Weeks making debut. Marciano fight only one of his career.

7) Jerry Jackson 0-0-0
Jackson making debut. Marciano fight only one of his career.

8) Bill Hardeman 0-4-0
Lost all his 4 previous fights. After fighting Marciano he retired never winning a fight.

9) Gil Cardione 0-1-0
Lost his only previous fight. After Marciano had 2 KO defeats then retired never winning a fight.

10) Bob Jefferson 0-2-0
Lost only two fights he had fought. After Marciano had 3 KO defeats then retired having never won a fight.

11) James Connolly 8-5-0 (5 KO’s)
Lost previous fight. Had 7 more after Marciano losing 3 before retiring.

12) Gilley Ferron 0-2-0
Lost the only two fights he had fought. After Marciano had 2 more defeats then retired having never won a fight.

13) Johnny Pretzie 7-6-0 (5 KO’s)
After Marciano fight had 6 straight defeats then retired.

14) Artie Donato 7-5-0 (2 KO’s)
After Marciano had 2 KO defeats then retired.

15) James Walls 9-13-1 (2 KO’s)
After Marciano fight won 3 of his remaining 23 fights before retiring.

16) Jimmy Evans 18-7-0 (12 KO’s)
Marciano fight last of his career before retiring.

17) Don Mogard 15-8-0 (4 KO’s)
Lost 7 previous fights. Had 7 more after Marciano fight winning just 2. Durable but a and weak puncher and limited fighter. Took Marciano the distance.

18) Harry Haft 11-6-0 (6 KO’s)
Lost 6 of previous 7 fights. Had one more losing fight then retired.

19) Pete Louthis 23-12-3 (11 KO’s)
KO’ed in previous fight. Marciano fight last of his career before retiring.

20) Tommy DiGiorgio 9-9-0 (1 KO)
Lost 3 previous fights. After Marciano had 3 KO defeats then retired.

21) Ted Lowry 56-46-8 (37 KO’s)
Lost 7 previous fights. Of his remaing 27 fights he won just 8 before retiring. Durable fighter and took Marciano the distance.

22) Joe Dominic 18-10-0 (11 KO’s)
Lost previous fight. After Marciano had one KO defeat then retired.

23) Pat Richards 20-5-5 (13 KO’s)
Had one more fight after Marciano, a KO defeat, then retired.

24) Phil Muscato 55-20-0 (19 KO’s)
Lost 4 previous fights. After Marciano had 2 KO defeats then retired.

25) Carmine Vingo 16-1-0 (7 KO’s)
Gave Rocky a hell of a fight with Rocky coming close to being stopped himself. This fight ended Vingos career but was said to be Rockys toughest.

26) Roland LaStarza 36-0-0 (17 KO’s)
A highly controversial decision. The judges scored it a draw but most observers of the fight thought LaStarza clearly won. The ref gave Marciano the edge. This was why LaStarza later got a rematch due to the controversy.

27) Eldridge Eatman 14-18-3 (7 KO’s)
In previous 8 fights he had lost 7. Last fight of his career.

28) Gino Buonvino 17-5-1 (2 KO’s)
Gino was KO’ed in his previous fight.

29) Johnny Shkor 28-19-2 (19 KO’s)
Shkor was KO’ed in the first round in previous fight. He had one more fight after fighting Marciano then retired.

30) Ted Lowry 59-54-9 (37 KO’s)
A rematch with Marciano. Lost previous 3 fights and after fighting Rocky he lost the next 5.

31) Bill Wilson 15-7-1 (10 KO’s)
Lost previous fight and after fighting Rocky lost the next 3.

32) Keene Simmons 7-6-1 (3 KO’s)
Lost 5 of his previous 6 fights. After fighting Marciano had 11 straight defeats then retired.

33) Harold Mitchell 0-10-2 (that’s right 12 fights 0 wins)
After fighting Marciano had one more fight (which he lost) and retired having never won a fight.

34) Art Henri 13-15-1 (8 KO’s)
Lost 5 of previous 6 fights. After fighting Marciano lost his next 5 fights.

35) Willis Applegate 5-13-2 (1 KO)
Lost 5 previous fights. Had one more fight after fighting Marciano then retired. Took Marciano the distance.

36) Rex Layne 34-1-2 (24 KO’s)
A good fighter and many thought he would beat Marciano. In his very next fight he was stopped again.

37) Freddie Beshore 30-11-2 (10 KO’s)
In his previous 9 fights he had lost 7.

38) Joe Louis 68-2-0 (54 KO’s)
Way past his best. 37 years old, balding, career heaviest, podgy. Last fight of career.

39) Lee Savold 74-33-2 (53 KO’s)
KO’ed in previous fight. Retired after fighting Marciano. Way past his best.

40) Gino Buonvino 18-8-2 (2 KO’s)
A rematch. KO’ed in the 1st round in fight before fighting Marciano. After fighting Marciano again he retired.

41) Bernie Reynolds 51-10-2 (30 KO’s)
Lost 4 of previous 6 fights. After fighting Marciano he had 3 KO defeats then retired.

42) Harry Matthews 79-3-6 (57 KO’s)
A good fighter but at light-heavyweight. Weighed 12 stone 8lbs (179 lbs) when he fought Marciano. This was a title eliminator fight.

Then we go onto Rockys title fights. In the 3 years he held the title Rocky only managed 6 defences, of which 3 were rematches.

He fought Walcott, who until recent times was the oldest man to hold the title. He was 38 and 39 years old when he fought Marciano. He dropped Marciano in the first fight and was ahead on all scorecards until he was KO’ed. Walcott was past his best when he fought Marciano and the two fights with Rocky were the last he had before retiring.

He had a rematch with LaStarza who was now 52-3-0 (24 KO’s).

He fought Ezzard Charles, who again was past his best. He had lost 2 of his previous 4 fights before fighting Marciano. Gave Marciano two very hard fights and came close to stopping Marciano on cuts. If any other fighter was a badly cut as Rocky was the fight would have been stopped.

He fought Don Cockell who fought mainly at light-heavyweight. Marciano very lucky not to have been disqualified after butting, elbowing, punching after the bell, hitting Cockell on the canvas, and kidney punching. After fighting Marciano Cockell had two KO defeats (3rd and 2nd rounds) then retired.

A finally Archie Moore who at 41 was hardly a spring chicken and fought best at light-heavyweight. He dropped Marciano.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 09 Jul 2003, 08:13

Check the disclaimer that's at the botton of most records you mentioned:
"this record may be incomplete/inaccurate." Research is still going on, but as of now, these records are nowhere near complete.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 09 Jul 2003, 14:18

terap wrote:Hey, you left out that Marciano fought Cleaveland Williams ---who was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage from being shot in the stomach by a Texas policeman a year and half before their fight,

and fought Floyd Patterson, who came into the fight with a sore back, and whose cornermen tried to give him chiropractic adjustments to his back between rounds,

or Leon Spinks who as a 7 fight novice beat Marciano and won his title

or Leon Spinks, who showed up filled up with cocaine for their 2nd fight and left for the ring without his protector on

and you forgot to mention the illegal extended rest Marciano got between rounds after he was floored by 185 pound Henry Cooper

or that Maricano fought Ken Norton THREE times and never beat him

or that Marciano was made a fool of by nobody Jimmy Young and given a 15 round boxing lesson

or that the murderous muslims connected with Marciano visited his opponent Sonny Liston before their fights and Liston forgot how to fight and "lost" both fights

or that he fought aged Zora Folley

or that he got the sh*t kicked out him by overweight lightheavyweight Doug Jones

or that Marciano QUIT IN HIS CORNER after throwing three punches in the entire fight as soon as Larry Holmes showed he was going to throw some serious punches.

I AM SURPRISED YOU LEFT ALL THOSE OUT.

You posted this on the other message re Marciano and I couldn't work out what you meant there either? I'm assuming you are trying to say Ali was over-rated too, or am I reading this wrong??

pvdh62 · Post by **pvdh62** » 09 Jul 2003, 18:09

Terap, you are boring. This post is about Marciano. And face it, Marciano was the Brian Nielsen of the fifties.

john garfield · Post by **john garfield** » 10 Jul 2003, 04:05

pvdh62 wrote:Terap, you are boring. This post is about Marciano. And face it, Marciano was the Brian Nielsen of the fifties.

"Marciano was the Brian Nielsen of the fifties" That's supposed to be clever, right? You're an embarrassment. The depths of your ignorance is appalling.

To even mention Nielsen in the same breath as Marciano is a disservice to Rocky.

Do you think that all the knowledgeable ring people who've spoken of Marciano as being so special for decades have just deluded themselves? That it's just "old school" bias?

It's a conspiracy of the elderly to keep the truth hidden, and fortunately, we have you to shine a light on the truth.

john garfield

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 10 Jul 2003, 11:55

Like I said... What Marciano did, would be like if someone came along today, and KO'd Tyson, Holyfield, and Lewis, all in remarkable fashion. How would you rate this person?

And we all know sure as hell Neilson can't do it. So stick that theory up your ass pvdh62.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 10 Jul 2003, 16:03

terap wrote:Jersey Joe Walcott said Marciano hit the hardest and was the toughest of any of the fighters he fought in his career.

Joe Louis said Marciano was a great puncher.

But what did Walcott and Joe Louis know about the topic?

Obviously not much according the "authorities" posting here.

No-ones denying Marciano could punch hard, Ali at one time said the hardest single punch he was hit with was by Henry Cooper, that doesn't mean anything. The fact remains, yes Marciano was undeafted, but he fought in a very poor era, against many second-rate fighters and fighters past their best.

Louis, Savold, Walcott all had Marciano as there last opponent because they all retired. Cockell only had two more KO defeats then retired. Charles was not the same fighter he used to be, yet gave Marciano two hard fights. There the facts my friend...

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 10 Jul 2003, 16:06

Tantum wrote:Like I said... What Marciano did, would be like if someone came along today, and KO'd Tyson, Holyfield, and Lewis, all in remarkable fashion. How would you rate this person?

And we all know sure as hell Neilson can't do it. So stick that theory up your ass pvdh62.

Just out of interest which opponents of Marciano are you comparing to Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis?

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 10 Jul 2003, 18:22

Controversial wrote:
Tantum wrote:Like I said... What Marciano did, would be like if someone came along today, and KO'd Tyson, Holyfield, and Lewis, all in remarkable fashion. How would you rate this person?

And we all know sure as hell Neilson can't do it. So stick that theory up your ass pvdh62.
Just out of interest which opponents of Marciano are you comparing to Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis?

Louis, Walcott, Charles. It was rather obvious who I was talking about.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 10 Jul 2003, 19:17

Tantum wrote:
Controversial wrote:
Tantum wrote:Like I said... What Marciano did, would be like if someone came along today, and KO'd Tyson, Holyfield, and Lewis, all in remarkable fashion. How would you rate this person?

And we all know sure as hell Neilson can't do it. So stick that theory up your ass pvdh62.
Just out of interest which opponents of Marciano are you comparing to Tyson, Holyfield and Lewis?
Louis, Walcott, Charles. It was rather obvious who I was talking about.

Face it my friend, all three, Louis, Walcott and Charles were way past their bests. If you think different maybe should should take up another sport.

Is it just coincidence that Louis and Walcott retired straight after fighter Marciano? They retired because they were past it, pure and simple, and a beating from a young hungry fighter was all they needed to convince them that they couldn't handle the big time anymore.

Is it also coincidence that Ezzard Charles only won 10 of his remaining 23 fights after Marciano? Again he was past his best, yet gave Rocky fits. If Walcott could floor and outbox Rocky at 38 are you telling me the fight would have been easier for Rocky when Walcott was younger?

Do you think Louis and Charles would have given him harder fights when they were in their primes. Of course they would, yet because Marciano beats them when they are past it, people say 'Hey he beat Louis, Walcott, Charles etc..' It's not the same buddy and you know it.

Is it also coincidence that after being KO'ed by the aged Louis on his comeback trail, that Lee Savold never fought again after fighting Marciano? Another one past his best.

Is it also coincidence that the roly-poly brit Don Cockell, who was KO'd by Randolph Turpin for the British Light Heavyweight title, got sparked in his next two fights (3rd and 2nd rounds) and retired. Another one past his best.

Marciano was fun to watch and could hit hard but he was fortunate enough to have a very shrewd manager, who was very careful who he fought. And he also fortunate to be in a poor era of heavyweights.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 10 Jul 2003, 19:22

That's why I said Lewis, Tyson, and Holyfield, all of them are past their best.

If someone came along, and KO'd all three in devastating fashion, how would you rate them?

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 10 Jul 2003, 19:47

Tantum wrote:That's why I said Lewis, Tyson, and Holyfield, all of them are past their best.

If someone came along, and KO'd all three in devastating fashion, how would you rate them?

You can't compare them. I'm not looking at Marciano on the strength of those three fights I'm looking at him and his entire career. I'm using them as examples because they are the three that the Marciano fans claim to be his biggest scalps. Maybe in name but certainly not in body. You just admitted Louis, Charles and Walcott were past their bests, so who did Marciano beat that wasn't. After beating up old men he retired.

Holyfield is a great great fighter in my opinion and just because Ruiz beat him doesn't mean I think Ruiz is a great fighter. I'm aware that Holyfield isn't as good as he used to be and so when he struggles in fights I know thats the reason. As for Lewis, I wouldn't say Lewis is past it, on his day he can beat anyone on the planet. He has been KOd but so was Louis in his prime. As for Tyson, he is past it, has been for ages, so if someone came along and flatenned him I wouldn't be too surprised. Douglas KOd Tyson when Tyson was in his hayday so if it could be done then, theres no reason why it can't be done now.

So to answer your question if someone did come along and knockout Tyson in 8, then struggle with Lewis before KO'ing him in the later rounds, and then fought a tough fight with Holyield, and stopped him in a rematch, yes they are good names to have on your record, but if they then retired after having fought mediocre fighters then KOing Lewis etc.. I would have the same doubts about them as I do Marciano.

bull · Post by **bull** » 11 Jul 2003, 07:00

Hi,

What is this "If Walcott", "highly controversal decision", "their primes","after and before Marciano fight"...
Thereby we(you) can renounce all boxing and sport heroes.

Who do we the think we are?

Any honest boxing heart (not mouth) know that-Rocky Marciano is real king.Everybody man who begin in boxing game whant to be like him.

This is the truth.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 11 Jul 2003, 08:40

bull wrote:Hi,

What is this "If Walcott", "highly controversal decision", "their primes","after and before Marciano fight"...
Thereby we(you) can renounce all boxing and sport heroes.

Who do we the think we are?

Any honest boxing heart (not mouth) know that-Rocky Marciano is real king.Everybody man who begin in boxing game whant to be like him.

This is the truth.

No the truth is Walcott, Louis and Charles were past their best. You are seriously mis-guided if you think they were the same great fighters they once were. Like I said before Louis and Walcott never fought again after the Marciano fight. What does that tell you? And the truth is Charles lost 13 of his next 23 fights after Marciano. What does that tell you.

You cannot say Marciano was great because he beat 'one time great fighters' when they were no longer great.

Trevor Berbick beat Muhammed Ali. So what! You can't tell me he would have stood a chance when Ali was in his prime.

Many great fighters were beaton by fighters who wouldn't have lasted a round if they fought them in their prime.

Now thats the truth

bull · Post by **bull** » 11 Jul 2003, 09:36

The only Rocky Marciano's problem is that he is undefeated.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 11 Jul 2003, 11:37

bull wrote:The only Rocky Marciano's problem is that he is undefeated.

When are you gonna add the word SHIT to the end of your name?

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 11 Jul 2003, 19:41

I rate Marciano, and Ali next to each other, 4th and 5th.

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 11 Jul 2003, 19:59

What I would like is for a Marciano fan to actually give a valid argument for their case.

It seems everyone is happy to say, 'Well he was unbeaten' or 'He was 49-0' but they all skirt around the subject of his opponents when you point out they were past it. I have yet to hear ONE valid point from anyone.

I'm not denying Marciano was a tough guy, a hard puncher, had great conditioning and was fun to watch. That I accept. What I don't accept is that his opponents were still the great fighters they once were.

So please enlighten me, I thought this was the point of message boards, please tell me who Marciano fought that is reconised as a world class fighter, that didn't retire straight after fighting him, or went on to lose more fights than they won?

I'd be interested to hear your answers. Like I said Trevor Berbick beat Ali, so what does that mean Berbick should be rated in the greatest top 10 lists? No of course not, Ali was well past it when he fought him, just like Louis, Walcott, Charles and many others were when they fought Marciano.

Eagerly awaiting your responses.................

pvdh62 · Post by **pvdh62** » 12 Jul 2003, 19:05

john garfield wrote:
pvdh62 wrote:Terap, you are boring. This post is about Marciano. And face it, Marciano was the Brian Nielsen of the fifties.

"Marciano was the Brian Nielsen of the fifties" That's supposed to be clever, right? You're an embarrassment. The depths of your ignorance is appalling.

To even mention Nielsen in the same breath as Marciano is a disservice to Rocky.

pvdh 62:
My appologies to mr. Garfield and other Marciano-fans. I did not want to compare Marciano and Nielson as fighters. I did [in a bad/clumsy way] try to make a point about fightrecords. The name of this topic is about the opponents of Marciano. And they were IMO, with respect, crap/or way over the hill. So the perfect 49-0[43] record doesn't mean that much. Anyone can fabricate a good record, even Brian Nielsen. It's about who you beat and when, not howmany. And since his record is the main reason all the Marcianofans give for calling Marciano an all-time great they really don't have a good argument. Just give me one good fighter in his prime that Marciano beat. I back mr.controversial completely on this one.
Still, Marciano was an excellent fighter, no argument about that.

[/b]

Dutch Windmill · Post by **Dutch Windmill** » 12 Jul 2003, 19:36

As for the topic. I think fighting ánd defeating Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Joe Louis(ancient version but still a force), Jersey Joe W.(twice), is enough for a claim to greatness.

Well, god damn Pvdh62 how many times do i have to tell you, Brian Nielsen is a serious heavyweight contender, with wins over an (almost) prime Holmes, and Tim Witherspoon. And just two losses of which one against fellow hall of famer, Dick Ryan!

To even mention Marciano in the same breath as Nielsen is a disservice to the danish pastry.

Kijk uit Pvd62, achter je!

pvdh62 · Post by **pvdh62** » 12 Jul 2003, 19:59

Haha, good one Windmill. I guess I deserved that

I reacted a bit pissed off because of terap's off-topic remarks about Ali. I shouldn't have put Marciano down as an answer. Still, you [and others] haven't given me names of good Marciano-opponents IN THEIR PRIME.

pvdh62 · Post by **pvdh62** » 12 Jul 2003, 20:11

Oh s**t, he beat a 28 year old Ali in that computer fight. How could I forget???? I EAT MY WORDS AND BOW MY HEAD. MARCIANO IS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIMES !!!!!!!!!!

bull · Post by **bull** » 14 Jul 2003, 04:56

Hi,
Everytime when someone do it great attainment many people doubt.

Rocky Marciano simply beat all of them.
Club fighters,journeymans,contenters and whorld champions.And never loss.
Everybody world champion meet "old" and not "in his prime" boxers, but no everytime win.And Joe Louis("old" Max knocked out him),and Ali was two times defeated 'in his prime", and Mike Tyson...all without exception.
This is valid for all sports not only in boxing.

The sport is game where persons are not "old" and"youngs" , but winners and losers.
Where is Marciano quilt that he is 9 years younger than Walcott. Joe is №1 in this moment and Rocky meet and bet him.
Or Joe Louis that is 12 younger than Braddock.Or Ali 10 than Liston. Or Tyson 15 than Holmes.Or Parterson 19 than Moore.Or Dempsey 13 thah Willard.Or Lenox and Evander are crap, becouse they fight two times for the most prize title in individual sports(undisputed hevyweight boxing chapionchip) ,when they are both over 35.

This is the name of the game.

If someone hate Rocky Marciano, the reason is in him, no in Marciano.

pvdh62 · Post by **pvdh62** » 15 Jul 2003, 13:48

Pffffff..............you are missing the point, you dummies.

Dariusz Michalczewski 48-0........and still active..........didn't quit at age 32 like Marciano..............one of the greatest lightheavy's of all times????????? Don't think so.

One thing about Marciano you guys seem/want to forget: I DO THINK MARCIANO WAS A GREAT FIGHTER! No hate, no disrespect, nothing. But please stop using his so-called perfect record as an argument for greatness!!!!! He was a great/exciting fighter because of his heart, punching power and natural charisma that lifted the whole BS.

The quality of his 49-0[43] record wasn't very rich as mr.controversial already explained. At least not rich enough to be a top 5 all-time heavy IMO.

bull · Post by **bull** » 16 Jul 2003, 03:22

Hi,

Don't mix different notions.
Do you loss serous arguments versus Rocky Marciano?

Limited divisions boxer Dariusz is 48-0 but he is not world champion and not heavyweight. As far I know he is WBO world light-hevyweight champion. He never fougt heavyweight boxer. And of course his hevyweight record is undefeated but 0-0.
And never be hevyweight champion even in WBO version.

I saw one interview that he speak about more 2 figts and this mean that he will breake Marciano(49-0) and Louis(25 defences) records and he be the greatest boxer in history.
Fanciful dreams.

Maybe he don't know about attainments in boxing limited divisions from the past.

And J.C Chavez was 88 or 89-0 before draw and loss, but where is analogy with Marciano(and other heavyweights) careears.And Willie Pep was had over 49 concecutive wins. And one asian boxer had over 30 title defences...and I don't know all.

Compare Rocky Marciano with Louis,Tyson,Ali,Dempsey,Lewis,Frazier,Charles,Walcott,Bowie,Holyfield,Foreman,Jonhson...

Today with many belts everybody can say that is great champion.

World champion is man who unifice WBA,WBC and IBF, or at least WBA and WBC.

Rocky Marciano is the only undefeated,undisputed,unlimited boxing champion in history.
With 49 concecutive wins and 88% ko's.

Let me know for someone.

All of Marcianos opponents ..

All of Marcianos opponents ..

Marciano & Nielsen

Re: Marciano & Nielsen