Where does Evander Holyfield rank among all time great Heavyweights?

[Cojimar 1946]

Foreman and Holmes were very selective in who they fought during their comeback and largely avoided top contenders. Plenty of guys who they didn't fight would have likely beaten them handily even knocked them out but they were smart enough not to fight them.

Foreman lost to Morrison and should have lost to Schultz. What is Lewis going to do to him? Someone like Ike could also put a real beating on both. Their level of competition needs to be considered when assessing them.

[gilgamesh]

Holmes and Foreman both have some of their career best wins in the 90's. Holmes beating Mercer and Foreman beating Moorer rank among the best wins they ever got.

I agree Lewis could've beaten 'em both. That doesn't mean they're not formidable. Lennox Lewis is an All Time Great Heavyweight. Saying he would beat somebody doesn't make them a bum.

Larry Holmes beat Ray Mercer more clearly than Lennox Lewis did. He's one of their few high profile common opponents. Holmes also lost only by 1 point on 2 of the cards against Oliver McCall. McCall was many years his junior, and had KO'd Lennox Lewis recently, but he couldn't knock out old washed up Holmes, and in fact had quite a difficult nights work against him.

[keithmoonhangover]

Foreman and Holmes were very selective in who they fought during their comeback and largely avoided top contenders.

Foreman fought Evander Holyfield, Tommy Morrison, Pierre Coetzer, Adilson Rodrigues, Alex Stewart and Shannon the Cannon.

Two of them were the reigning heavyweight champion of the world.

[Controversial]

Foreman and Holmes were very selective in who they fought during their comeback and largely avoided top contenders.

Foreman fought Evander Holyfield, Tommy Morrison, Pierre Coetzer, Adilson Rodrigues, Alex Stewart and Shannon the Cannon.

Two of them were the reigning heavyweight champion of the world.

It was a fun time in the HW division. I do think Foreman was carefully steered to this title shot against Holyfield. A few names but generally journeymen, inactive fighters or blown up CWs. Rodrigues was his 22nd fight and first top 10 rated opponent. Morrison beat him. Stewart lost by MD but gave Foreman a beating in the process. Briggs beat him. Foreman was also on record saying he wanted no part of Lennox Lewis. But you have to love Foreman, he gave Holyfield a tough fight and came from behind to beat the undefeated Moorer (35-0) to win the title.

[Ambling Alp II]

It was a fun time. Could have been better, but fun nevertheless.
I think people forget just how long Foreman had been off when he made his comeback. It was 10 years!
He was smart in fighting a lot ham and eggers in his comeback period before gradually fighter better competition.

I would also mention the Cooney fight. A lot of people thought he would lose that. He just destroyed Cooney. It might have been his best performance.

If Foreman (and Holmes for that matter) did not have their great careers when they were much younger, nobody would consider them great fighters. However, they were good and knew what they were doing.

[Klee Gluckman]

Evander is anywhere between 3 and 9.

He has beaten four all-time greats and drawn with another.

HE fought everyone as well.

I have him at 5 but understand reasons why others have him higher and lower.

[Cojimar 1946]

Foreman and Holmes were very selective in who they fought during their comeback and largely avoided top contenders.

Foreman fought Evander Holyfield, Tommy Morrison, Pierre Coetzer, Adilson Rodrigues, Alex Stewart and Shannon the Cannon.

Two of them were the reigning heavyweight champion of the world.

Most of the guys you mentioned aren't what I would consider formidable competition. Coetzer, Rodrigues, Stewart are not anything to brag about.

If Foreman had faced say the guys Lewis fought he would easily have say 10, 15 plus losses

Loses to Ruddock
Loses to Bruno
Loses to Tucker
Loses to McCall
Loses to Morrison
Loses to Mercer
Loses to Akinwande
Loses to Holyfield
Loses to Tua
Loses to Rahman
Loses to Vitali

Grant, Mason also have an excellent shot at beating Foreman as well though maybe he has a chance there.

Golota/old Tyson/Briggs seem like fights that could go either way. And Foreman could potentially beat the rest

[Cojimar 1946]

It was a fun time. Could have been better, but fun nevertheless.
I think people forget just how long Foreman had been off when he made his comeback. It was 10 years!
He was smart in fighting a lot ham and eggers in his comeback period before gradually fighter better competition.

I would also mention the Cooney fight. A lot of people thought he would lose that. He just destroyed Cooney. It might have been his best performance.

If Foreman (and Holmes for that matter) did not have their great careers when they were much younger, nobody would consider them great fighters. However, they were good and knew what they were doing.

I would put 90s Holmes at roughly Larry Donald level and old Foreman maybe at the level of Barrett or Cobb.

[gilgamesh]

It was a fun time. Could have been better, but fun nevertheless.
I think people forget just how long Foreman had been off when he made his comeback. It was 10 years!
He was smart in fighting a lot ham and eggers in his comeback period before gradually fighter better competition.

I would also mention the Cooney fight. A lot of people thought he would lose that. He just destroyed Cooney. It might have been his best performance.

If Foreman (and Holmes for that matter) did not have their great careers when they were much younger, nobody would consider them great fighters. However, they were good and knew what they were doing.

I would put 90s Holmes at roughly Larry Donald level and old Foreman maybe at the level of Barrett or Cobb.

I would put you as a guy that doesn't know Boxing particularly well.

Foreman couldn't beat Bruno? What you smoking? He's not a guaranteed loser against many of them others you named either. A likely loser maybe, but not a certain one.

Foreman was 20 years deep into his career in the 90's. You think Tyson Fury will still be in the mix in the 2030's? You know who else wasn't doing big things 20 years into his career? Lennox f*cking Lewis. He didn't even have a career after 20 years.

[Controversial]

It was a fun time. Could have been better, but fun nevertheless.
I think people forget just how long Foreman had been off when he made his comeback. It was 10 years!
He was smart in fighting a lot ham and eggers in his comeback period before gradually fighter better competition.

I would also mention the Cooney fight. A lot of people thought he would lose that. He just destroyed Cooney. It might have been his best performance.

Yeah I don't think he done much different to a lot of fighters, especially these days, build up an unbeaten run against lower tier fighters and get a title shot. For me though Cooney was more of a name than he was a world class threat, he'd been hugely inactive for parts of his career and out the ring for 2.5 years when he fought Foreman, only boxing 12 rounds since losing to Holmes 8 years earlier. Cooney never beat any prime world class fighter either, the big names on his record were all past their best.

[Controversial]

Foreman was 20 years deep into his career in the 90's. You think Tyson Fury will still be in the mix in the 2030's? You know who else wasn't doing big things 20 years into his career? Lennox f*cking Lewis. He didn't even have a career after 20 years.

That's slightly misleading, Foreman's first career was around 7.5 years before retiring aged 28. His second career was 10.5 years so 18 years in total. Lewis boxed for 14 years but of course was mainly fighting at the very top level for most of that, it's not he wasn't able to still be a force in the division, he just decided to retire at the very top.

[gilgamesh]

Foreman was 20 years deep into his career in the 90's. You think Tyson Fury will still be in the mix in the 2030's? You know who else wasn't doing big things 20 years into his career? Lennox f*cking Lewis. He didn't even have a career after 20 years.

That's slightly misleading, Foreman's first career was around 7.5 years before retiring aged 28. His second career was 10.5 years so 18 years in total. Lewis boxed for 14 years but of course was mainly fighting at the very top level for most of that.

And the list of Heavyweights who were competing at the level he was competing at well into their 40's is 1 name long, and it's George Foreman's name.

[Controversial]

Foreman was 20 years deep into his career in the 90's. You think Tyson Fury will still be in the mix in the 2030's? You know who else wasn't doing big things 20 years into his career? Lennox f*cking Lewis. He didn't even have a career after 20 years.

That's slightly misleading, Foreman's first career was around 7.5 years before retiring aged 28. His second career was 10.5 years so 18 years in total. Lewis boxed for 14 years but of course was mainly fighting at the very top level for most of that.

And the list of Heavyweights who were competing at the level he was competing at well into their 40's is 1 name long, and it's George Foreman's name.

Well yeah because he chose to fight at that age, I'm sure Lewis would've been more competitive in his 40s if he chose to carry on.

[gilgamesh]

That's slightly misleading, Foreman's first career was around 7.5 years before retiring aged 28. His second career was 10.5 years so 18 years in total. Lewis boxed for 14 years but of course was mainly fighting at the very top level for most of that.

And the list of Heavyweights who were competing at the level he was competing at well into their 40's is 1 name long, and it's George Foreman's name.

Well yeah because he chose to fight at that age, I'm sure Lewis would've been more competitive in his 40s if he chose to carry on.

I'm not

[Controversial]

And the list of Heavyweights who were competing at the level he was competing at well into their 40's is 1 name long, and it's George Foreman's name.

Well yeah because he chose to fight at that age, I'm sure Lewis would've been more competitive in his 40s if he chose to carry on.

I'm not

Based on what? Foreman had declined at lot, Savarase gave him fits and lost a SD. Grimsley hadn't beaten anyone, most of his opponents had losing records and somehow got a title shot, in his next fight he was flatted in a round. Schulz was unranked and got a title shot, Foreman refused to fight number one contender Tucker. Schulz lost but many thought he won and Foreman refused to rematch him. Plus he refused to fight Lewis. This isn't a slant on Foreman, it was a great career and a fun time in the division but he was also cherry picking and lucky to get the win in some fights.

[gilgamesh]

Well yeah because he chose to fight at that age, I'm sure Lewis would've been more competitive in his 40s if he chose to carry on.

I'm not

Based on what? Foreman had declined at lot, Savarase gave him fits and lost a SD. Grimsley hadn't beaten anyone, most of his opponents had losing records and somehow got a title shot, in his next fight he was flatted in a round. Schulz was unranked and got a title shot, Foreman refused to fight number one contender Tucker. Schulz lost but many thought he won and Foreman refused to rematch him. Plus he refused to fight Lewis. This isn't a slant on Foreman, it was a great career and a fun time in the division but he was also cherry picking and lucky to get the win in some fights.

Any fighter fighting in their 40's is gonna cherry pick to some extent. You'd have to be crazy not to. I don't recall Savarese being particularly difficult for Foreman, but I know in his last few fights he got to where he'd give away many rounds, and only fight in spurts. All older fighters do that, pick their spots to attack because the 'ol gas tank ain't what it used to be.

Most fighters aren't able to make the adjustments to their style that are going to be necessary with the changes to their aging body. They keep trying to fight the way they used to, and their body fails them.

Lewis may well have done good if he had decided to keep fighting on, but I don't think he'd ever have been able to stand up to the kind of shots that Old Man Foreman often did in some of his tougher contests, and a KO loss is gonna end a comeback attempt a lot quicker than Decision losses will.

[Cojimar 1946]

It was a fun time. Could have been better, but fun nevertheless.
I think people forget just how long Foreman had been off when he made his comeback. It was 10 years!
He was smart in fighting a lot ham and eggers in his comeback period before gradually fighter better competition.

I would also mention the Cooney fight. A lot of people thought he would lose that. He just destroyed Cooney. It might have been his best performance.

If Foreman (and Holmes for that matter) did not have their great careers when they were much younger, nobody would consider them great fighters. However, they were good and knew what they were doing.

I would put 90s Holmes at roughly Larry Donald level and old Foreman maybe at the level of Barrett or Cobb.

I would put you as a guy that doesn't know Boxing particularly well.

Foreman couldn't beat Bruno? What you smoking? He's not a guaranteed loser against many of them others you named either. A likely loser maybe, but not a certain one.

Foreman was 20 years deep into his career in the 90's. You think Tyson Fury will still be in the mix in the 2030's? You know who else wasn't doing big things 20 years into his career? Lennox f*cking Lewis. He didn't even have a career after 20 years.

What do Fury or Lewis have to do with anything? I'm merely pointing out I don't rate 90s Foreman very highly and beating him isn't much to brag about. Which stands to reason given he lost to Morrison and should have lost to Schultz.

His form in his comeback is overrated based on his prior accomplishments.

[gilgamesh]

I would put 90s Holmes at roughly Larry Donald level and old Foreman maybe at the level of Barrett or Cobb.

I would put you as a guy that doesn't know Boxing particularly well.

Foreman couldn't beat Bruno? What you smoking? He's not a guaranteed loser against many of them others you named either. A likely loser maybe, but not a certain one.

Foreman was 20 years deep into his career in the 90's. You think Tyson Fury will still be in the mix in the 2030's? You know who else wasn't doing big things 20 years into his career? Lennox f*cking Lewis. He didn't even have a career after 20 years.

What do Fury or Lewis have to do with anything? I'm merely pointing out I don't rate 90s Foreman very highly and beating him isn't much to brag about. Which stands to reason given he lost to Morrison and should have lost to Schultz.

His form in his comeback is overrated based on his prior accomplishments.

Tommy Morrison didn't suck. He was a very good Heavyweight fighter.

[Controversial]

I would put you as a guy that doesn't know Boxing particularly well.

Foreman couldn't beat Bruno? What you smoking? He's not a guaranteed loser against many of them others you named either. A likely loser maybe, but not a certain one.

Foreman was 20 years deep into his career in the 90's. You think Tyson Fury will still be in the mix in the 2030's? You know who else wasn't doing big things 20 years into his career? Lennox f*cking Lewis. He didn't even have a career after 20 years.

What do Fury or Lewis have to do with anything? I'm merely pointing out I don't rate 90s Foreman very highly and beating him isn't much to brag about. Which stands to reason given he lost to Morrison and should have lost to Schultz.

His form in his comeback is overrated based on his prior accomplishments.

Tommy Morrison didn't suck. He was a very good Heavyweight fighter.

He was a decent puncher but who did Morrison ever beat who was in their prime? Invariably when he stepped up he got stopped. His record is padded out with lots of journeymen and past it fighters. Foreman was probably his best win, other wins against Razor Rudduck, Tillis, Pinklon Thomas and Carl Williams you'd struggle to say they were the best versions of themselves.

[gilgamesh]

What do Fury or Lewis have to do with anything? I'm merely pointing out I don't rate 90s Foreman very highly and beating him isn't much to brag about. Which stands to reason given he lost to Morrison and should have lost to Schultz.

His form in his comeback is overrated based on his prior accomplishments.

Tommy Morrison didn't suck. He was a very good Heavyweight fighter.

He was a decent puncher but who did Morrison ever beat who was in their prime? Invariably when he stepped up he got stopped. His record is padded out with lots of journeymen and past it fighters. Foreman was probably his best win, other wins against Razor Rudduck, Tillis, Pinklon Thomas and Carl Williams you'd struggle to say they were the best versions of themselves.

Foreman and Ruddock are both solid wins. He doesn't have a lot of great wins, but he has a handful of good ones like you mention. You can see with your eyes he's a good fighter though. Good handspeed, good power with both hands. His problem was his chin and his stamina, but even with those weaknesses he was still something to deal with when you were in the ring with him.

He won all of the first 4 rounds against Mercer prior to coming undone in the 5th, so it's not as if he was just hopelessly outmatched by good fighters.

[Cojimar 1946]

In terms of career accomplishments I wouldn't put Morrison in the top 300, I don't know if he even makes the top 500

It's hard to overstate just how many guys had better careers. I could try making a list but it could take me weeks. There are many guys who accomplished more who are totally forgotten today.

[gilgamesh]

In terms of career accomplishments I wouldn't put Morrison in the top 300, I don't know if he even makes the top 500

It's hard to overstate just how many guys had better careers. I could try making a list but it could take me weeks. There are many guys who accomplished more who are totally forgotten today.

I'd rate Morrison ahead of the likes of Ken Norton, Jersey Joe Walcott, Tim Witherspoon, The Michaels (Spinks, Dokes, Moorer).

He's not up there with the best of the best, but he's still hanging with pretty good company.

[Cojimar 1946]

Ken Norton was top 5 in his era, I wouldn't even put Morrison in his eras top 25. In terms of accomplishments in their own eras I can't see any case for him above Norton.

Norton is more comparable to someone like Bowe I would say

[gilgamesh]

Ken Norton was top 5 in his era, I wouldn't even put Morrison in his eras top 25. In terms of accomplishments in their own eras I can't see any case for him above Norton.

Norton is more comparable to someone like Bowe I would say

Norton really doesn't have any particularly great wins either other than the decision over Ali in their 1st bout. His fight with Jimmy Young was extremely close. Other than that the best things he did was lose competitively to Holmes and Ali.

Norton also has less wins and more losses than Morrison, and in spite of having less total fights than Morrison, he was knocked out more often

You keep throwing these numbers out. You wouldn't have Morrison Top 300 all time or Top 25 of his own era, but go ahead and try to name 299 better Heavyweights.

Go ahead and tell me 24 better fighters from 90's. Take as much time as you need.

[gilgamesh]

Not only was there not 25 Better Heavyweights in Morrison's own era. There haven't been 25 better Heavyweights in all the decades since neither.

If you did a Top 25 of the last 50 years. Morrison makes that list, no question.

Unless you're just pulling names out of hat arbitrarily and ranking them ahead of him based on nothing.