Did Tyson really Duck Foreman!?

[Ambling Alp II]

Foreman's best wins in his comeback don't compare to Tyson's. Bruno, Tucker, Thomas, Tubbs etc. Name one opponent other than Michael Moorer that Foreman beat that is even remotely close to these guys?

Axel Schulz, Lou Savarese, Alex Stewart don't even come remotely close.

And yes Sherlock, wins count.

Of course I do realize that Foreman was in his 40s when he had these fights. That is the time period when Tyson would have had to fight Foreman. You have to count these fights. For the umpteenth time, I am not saying that Tyson would have beaten a prime Foreman.

Yes Tyson was close to the Top 10. Virtually anyone would have him pretty close. Top 15 for sure.
Victories don't count.

I'm being called a fanboy of Mike Tyson. Never dreamed I would ever be called that.

[Kalan]

Yeah, but i think 1990 there were thoughts about Tyson-Foreman. According to rumors Tyson said to Don Kinh:"You can fight that f.....g animal, if you want!" and went away. Another possibility is that Foreman did not want to make a deal with King because he didnt trust him.

BULLCRAP!!!! Ask, who did Foreman fight??? Try Alex Schulz... Lou Saverease... Crawford Grimsley... and Tommy Morrison ... He fought about once a year.

Who did Foreman avoid??? Try Larry Holmes... Ray Mercer... Oliver McCall... Lennox Lewis... Mike Tyson... and Razor Ruddock ... because he could.

What did Foreman's opponents have in common???? They were mostly weak hitters. Most all were very poor boxers and they were not very bright.

What did the opponents who Foreman's ducked have in common??? They were mostly very good boxers, were mostly smart, and most could punch your head off

[Klee Gluckman]

Why wouldn't Bowe make the Hall of Fame.

He is a top 20 Heavyweight of all time. He should be there.

[gilgamesh]

Why wouldn't Bowe make the Hall of Fame.

He is a top 20 Heavyweight of all time. He should be there.

I think they've inducted now haven't they? If not they definitely should.

[Cojimar 1946]

I'd put Bowe outside the top 20 pretty comfortably

[gilgamesh]

I'd put Bowe outside the top 20 pretty comfortably

Who are the 20 you'd have ahead of him. I'll bet you anything your cases for why they're better than Bowe start looking pretty ridiculous by the time you get to #15 or so.

I have Bowe in the Top 10 myself. The only Legendary Heavyweights who could bump him out of it that I haven't really covered extensively yet is The Jack's, Johnson and Dempsey.

But in the last 80 years or so. No there ain't 20 guys that were better than Bowe. I'm not sure there were 10.

[Cojimar 1946]

The top 10 should be reserved who guys who proved themselves the best of their eras. That would obviously disqualify Bowe.

We don't even know where Bowe rated in his own time. Could be as low as 4 or 5 in his own era.

[gilgamesh]

The top 10 should be reserved who guys who proved themselves the best of their eras. That would obviously disqualify Bowe.

We don't even know where Bowe rated in his own time. Could be as low as 4 or 5 in his own era.

For the most part it is reserved for guys who proved themselves the best of their era. The 90's is the closest race as far as the "Who was the best of the era" question.

Most other eras in Heavyweight Boxing wind up having a clear #1. In the 90's it's at least somewhat debatable.

In the 1930's and 1940's it's Joe Louis, no doubt.
1950's, Marciano no doubt
1960's and 70's, Ali no doubt
1980's, Holmes or Tyson, but for me Holmes has a MUCH stronger argument
1990's, Lewis or Holyfield are the best 2, but Bowe isn't far behind and did beat Holyfield in 2 out of their 3 bouts.

the early 2000's was a mess, but eventually Wladimir Klitschko became the king of that whole slog, and was the Heavyweight king for about 10 years.

And now we have Usyk who is the clear #1 of the here and now.

History shows that the 90's was one of the most consistently competitive eras.

[keithmoonhangover]

I'd put Bowe outside the top 20 pretty comfortably

Who's your top ten?

[Cojimar 1946]

I'd put Bowe outside the top 20 pretty comfortably

Who's your top ten?

By what criteria? Ability or accomplishments?

For example Bill Russell was great in his era but I don't rate his era highly. So his rating would be very different based on criteria.

[keithmoonhangover]

I'd put Bowe outside the top 20 pretty comfortably

Who's your top ten?

By what criteria? Ability or accomplishments?

You decide.

In fact, let's see your top 20.

[gilgamesh]

Accomplishment is really all there is ain't it? Unfulfilled ability don't mean sh*t.

[Cojimar 1946]

Accomplishment is really all there is ain't it? Unfulfilled ability don't mean sh*t.

Sure but many past heavyweights are giving up too much size for me to pick them over Bowe.

Marcianos is 45 pounds lighter and 5 1/2 inches shorter. That's a lot to overcome if your opponent can fight a bit.

[gilgamesh]

Accomplishment is really all there is ain't it? Unfulfilled ability don't mean sh*t.

Sure but many past heavyweights are giving up too much size for me to pick them over Bowe.

Marcianos is 45 pounds lighter and 5 1/2 inches shorter. That's a lot to overcome if your opponent can fight a bit.

Well thankfully for Marciano he didn't have to compete with every Heavyweight that ever lived, just the ones they put in front of him. Same goes for Bowe.

[Ambling Alp II]

Can't wait to see this list.

[Cojimar 1946]

In no particular order the top 20 in terms of accomplishments would include the following
Sullivan
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Charles
Marciano
Patterson
Liston
Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Wladimir
Usyk

I'm reluctant to put Usyk in due to his extremely thin resume but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that he is the best of his era so it seemed I should compromise.

So that gets us close to 20.

[gilgamesh]

In no particular order the top 20 in terms of accomplishments would include the following
Sullivan
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Charles
Marciano
Patterson
Liston
Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Wladimir
Usyk

I'm reluctant to put Usyk in due to his extremely thin resume but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that he is the best of his era so it seemed I should compromise.

So that gets us close to 20.

Bowe is a better Heavyweight than at least 4 of those guys. Some of em by a pretty wide margin, some of em by a thin margin.

I personally wouldn't rate Tyson, Frazier, Liston or Patterson above Bowe.

Jeffries doesn't even have 20 wins total in his entire career, and while there's nothing really to go on i have a hard time imagining Sullivan wouldn't have been smashed to pieces by Bowe and about 100 others that came after him.

Sullivan to my knowledge only had 1 Gloved bout which he lost, so technically as a Boxer under the Marques of Queensbury rules. He never won a fight. I know that's just a technicality as he was the last of the famous Bareknuckle Champions at least for an entire Century or more before they shockingly brought that back, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.

[p4p1]

In no particular order the top 20 in terms of accomplishments would include the following
Sullivan
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Charles
Marciano
Patterson
Liston
Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Wladimir
Usyk

I'm reluctant to put Usyk in due to his extremely thin resume but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that he is the best of his era so it seemed I should compromise.

So that gets us close to 20.

Bowe is a better Heavyweight than at least 4 of those guys. Some of em by a pretty wide margin, some of em by a thin margin.

I personally wouldn't rate Tyson, Frazier, Liston or Patterson above Bowe.

Jeffries doesn't even have 20 wins total in his entire career, and while there's nothing really to go on i have a hard time imagining Sullivan wouldn't have been smashed to pieces by Bowe and about 100 others that came after him.

Sullivan to my knowledge only had 1 Gloved bout which he lost, so technically as a Boxer under the Marques of Queensbury rules. He never won a fight. I know that's just a technicality as he was the last of the famous Bareknuckle Champions at least for an entire Century or more before they shockingly brought that back, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.

Sullivan had plenty of gloved fights. Sullivans preferred rules were gloves and 4x3 min rounds. He believed that the 4 round limit encouraged high paced action while the long drawn out London prize ring rules did the opposite. Sullivan was a major reason and driver behind the Marques of Queensbury rules being adopted. That is why he is considered both the last bareknuckle champ and the first gloved champion.

1885 win over Dominick McCaffrey is considered by most the first gloved world heavyweight championship fight. The only reason why the few LPR fights that Sullivan had took place were for legitimacy of his world heavyweight championship claim from the national police gazette who's owner strongly disliked Sullivan and would happily use his lack of LPR bouts as a reason why he wasn't the best in the world.

That isn't to say that the guys who were bought up in the more modern era using gloves wouldn't beat the shit out of him but Sullivan has to be placed above Bowe because he was the best of his era, he was dominant and if you want to include influence on the sport as part of the criteria for rating your top 20, then he makes the cut easily.

[gilgamesh]

I don't consider anything other than Wins, Losses, Level of Opposition, Quality of Performance and Championships at stake.

Influence isn't really something you can quantify, but I'll agree with you that Sullivan undoubtedly had a tremendous influence on the sport for decades to come.

[p4p1]

I don't consider anything other than Wins, Losses, Level of Opposition, Quality of Performance and Championships at stake.

Influence isn't really something you can quantify, but I'll agree with you that Sullivan undoubtedly had a tremendous influence on the sport for decades to come.

I agree that influence shouldn't be a consideration when evaluating your top 10-20 lists but his competition was for the most part the best of his time. I don't know exactly where I would rate him, and there is an added difficulty rating him because of his and others refusal to fight black fighters. I don't think it is outlandish to say he was the best in the world for the better part of a decade and he did remain undefeated until he was 34 beating the best around during that time.

If you like reading Gil, I couldn't recommend Strong Boy: The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan, America's First Sports Hero by Christopher Klein enough. A really interesting read that bothers to go into what the times were like to give background and the wild life that Sullivan lead.

[Cojimar 1946]

In no particular order the top 20 in terms of accomplishments would include the following
Sullivan
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Charles
Marciano
Patterson
Liston
Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Wladimir
Usyk

I'm reluctant to put Usyk in due to his extremely thin resume but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that he is the best of his era so it seemed I should compromise.

So that gets us close to 20.

Bowe is a better Heavyweight than at least 4 of those guys. Some of em by a pretty wide margin, some of em by a thin margin.

I personally wouldn't rate Tyson, Frazier, Liston or Patterson above Bowe.

Jeffries doesn't even have 20 wins total in his entire career, and while there's nothing really to go on i have a hard time imagining Sullivan wouldn't have been smashed to pieces by Bowe and about 100 others that came after him.

Sullivan to my knowledge only had 1 Gloved bout which he lost, so technically as a Boxer under the Marques of Queensbury rules. He never won a fight. I know that's just a technicality as he was the last of the famous Bareknuckle Champions at least for an entire Century or more before they shockingly brought that back, but that's a different discussion for a different thread.

In terms of accomplishments I don't see how they can rate below Bowe. They all did more in their eras than Bowe did in his.

If accomplishments is the criteria they simply have to rate above him.

[keithmoonhangover]

In no particular order the top 20 in terms of accomplishments would include the following
Sullivan
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Charles
Marciano
Patterson
Liston
Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Wladimir
Usyk

I'm reluctant to put Usyk in due to his extremely thin resume but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that he is the best of his era so it seemed I should compromise.

So that gets us close to 20.

Can you put them in order? Be interesting to see how you rank them.

[gilgamesh]

I don't consider anything other than Wins, Losses, Level of Opposition, Quality of Performance and Championships at stake.

Influence isn't really something you can quantify, but I'll agree with you that Sullivan undoubtedly had a tremendous influence on the sport for decades to come.

I agree that influence shouldn't be a consideration when evaluating your top 10-20 lists but his competition was for the most part the best of his time. I don't know exactly where I would rate him, and there is an added difficulty rating him because of his and others refusal to fight black fighters. I don't think it is outlandish to say he was the best in the world for the better part of a decade and he did remain undefeated until he was 34 beating the best around during that time.

If you like reading Gil, I couldn't recommend Strong Boy: The Life and Times of John L. Sullivan, America's First Sports Hero by Christopher Klein enough. A really interesting read that bothers to go into what the times were like to give background and the wild life that Sullivan lead.

I'm pretty sure I had that on my "Books to get" list somewhere around here. If I didn't I'll add it to the list.

[Ambling Alp II]

In no particular order the top 20 in terms of accomplishments would include the following
Sullivan
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Charles
Marciano
Patterson
Liston
Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Wladimir
Usyk

I'm reluctant to put Usyk in due to his extremely thin resume but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that he is the best of his era so it seemed I should compromise.

So that gets us close to 20.

I count 19.
Bowe was better than Sullivan (though he is hard to rate), Fitzsimmons, Klitschko and Usyk for sure.
He was roughly even with Charles, and Patterson. Walcott and Norton would be right there as well.
Langford and Wills never got title shots but they were right there was also.

[Cojimar 1946]

In no particular order the top 20 in terms of accomplishments would include the following
Sullivan
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Johnson
Dempsey
Louis
Charles
Marciano
Patterson
Liston
Frazier
Ali
Foreman
Holmes
Tyson
Holyfield
Lewis
Wladimir
Usyk

I'm reluctant to put Usyk in due to his extremely thin resume but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that he is the best of his era so it seemed I should compromise.

So that gets us close to 20.

I count 19.
Bowe was better than Sullivan (though he is hard to rate), Fitzsimmons, Klitschko and Usyk for sure.
He was roughly even with Charles, and Patterson. Walcott and Norton would be right there as well.
Langford and Wills never got title shots but they were right there was also.

Not in terms of accomplishments.
Sullivan was by far the best of his era and was the best heavyweights in the world for circa 7 years.

I would like to hear a case for Bowe accomplishing more relative to his era