Sharkey vs Schmeling

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 06 Oct 2006, 11:47

They were the big rivals in the early 30ties....Who was better ?

Both won a fight against each other...1930 Schmeling by Dsq. (after 4 close rounds) and 1932 Sharkey in a very controversal split descision.

Both had Fights against :

Johnny Risko (Sharkey fought him twice)
Young Stribling
Mickey Walker
Joe Louis (Schmeling fought him twice)

Sharkey had a 2-2-1 (with 0 K.o.'s) record against that opposition, Schmeling had it 4-1 (with 4 K.o.'s).

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 06 Oct 2006, 12:09

The thing is that Sharkey and Schmeling didn't peak at the same time. Sharkey's best time was probably around 1927, when he toyed with the mighty Jack Dempsey. In 1930 when he met Schmeling first he was still very good, but he deteriorated rapidly thereafter. Unfortunately that fight ended inconclusively (with the DQ). Prime Sharkey had very fast hands and feet, very good ring generalship, good punching power in both hands, and was a superb infighter.

Schmeling broke through in 1929 but reached his prime perhaps in 1931 until 1933, a period where he has to be considered as the world' best heavyweight. He clearly won the rematch over a -- by that time -- slowed-down and lazy Sharkey, but got robbed badly. Schmeling was a smart, methodical fighter, a counterpuncher with good defense and a good eye, and with one of the most terrific right hooks in boxing history.

So it's a close one. Sharkey vs. Schmeling prime to prime could end with (i) an early KO for Sharkey (this is what Sharkey tried to force in the first fight), (ii) a late KO for Schmeling (he was close to that in the refight), or (iii) a narrow decision, probably with the better end for Schmeling if he doesn't fall too much behind in the early rounds.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Oct 2006, 12:37

Schmeling broke through in 1929 but reached his prime perhaps in 1931 until 1933

naw schmelings peak was 1936 and he his prime ended after 1938 joe louis beating.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 06 Oct 2006, 12:40

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Schmeling broke through in 1929 but reached his prime perhaps in 1931 until 1933

naw schmelings peak was 1936 and he his prime ended after 1938 joe louis beating.

Isn't that convenient?

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 06 Oct 2006, 12:52

There's that, too.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 06 Oct 2006, 15:10

Sharkey could be compromised.....where he lost his greatness was in his ethics and his will. I always give him a bad time and I would say deservedly so. However it was mostly about his choices.....had he been stronger in mental and ethical state I would think much more of him. And I think he would have gone much farther. I think Carnera "beat" him in a semi legit way. But Sharkey seemed to be relentlessly giving Carnera the opportunity. So the KO was real but the opportunity for it seemed contrived if you know what I mean.

He had a lot of potential much of it unrealized. Schmeling beats Sharkey on those counts and I think he takes any fight with Sharkey by hook or by crook.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 06 Oct 2006, 17:22

Decagon wrote:Lack of ethics is about as big a part of Sharkey's career as being knocked out in one round is a part of Schmeling's career.

Hmmm.... the pioints loss to Steve Hamas looks like the bigger stain on Schmeling's career than the KO1 loss in the Louis re-fight.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 06 Oct 2006, 19:33

DoubleM wrote:There's that, too.

are u saying schmeling wasnt in his prime 1936-38?? any logic to back up this claim?? i noticed no signs of aging on film of schmeling during these years

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 Oct 2006, 22:19

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
DoubleM wrote:There's that, too.

are u saying schmeling wasnt in his prime 1936-38?? any logic to back up this claim?? i noticed no signs of aging on film of schmeling during these years

Your claim is based on one - admittedly brilliant - fight where Max outsmarted Joe Louis. But 1929-33 Schmeling had a streak of great fights, culminating in the 1931 shootout win over HOFer Young Stribling who had never touched the canvas before but was totally outclassed and beaten up by Max, and the superb controlling performance in the refight against Sharkey where Schmeling was badly robbed. 31-33 Scmeling was considered the world's best heavyweight, not 1936-38, and this was his prime.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 Oct 2006, 23:50

Decagon wrote:Not true. Schmeling was ranked the #2 contender before the Louis win, and he had a good claim to being the best in the world during that time, being the #1 contender to Braddock and Louis. I think most people would have picked him over Braddock in 1937, and the rematch with Louis wasn't supposed to be a one-round blowout.

Still most thought Louis would win a refight, hence Schmeling wasn't #1.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 08 Oct 2006, 01:03

Decagon wrote:Really? Where do you get those figures from? A poll of writers? I'm sure many of them did, but let's stick to the facts.

I always thought ranking fighters was very much a matter of judgement rather than "facts".

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 08 Oct 2006, 10:18

Decagon wrote:Not true. Schmeling was ranked the #2 contender before the Louis win, and he had a good claim to being the best in the world during that time, being the #1 contender to Braddock and Louis. I think most people would have picked him over Braddock in 1937, and the rematch with Louis wasn't supposed to be a one-round blowout.

Yes you're right. Before the first Louis-Fight Max was ranked so high because of his K.o. wins over high ranked fighters Walter Neusel and Steve Hamas. Still Louis thought to be unbeatable in 1936. But in 1938 the chances seemed to be even at least. Max had 3 more good Fights (Harry Thomas, Ben Foord, and Steve Dudas) the K.o. over Louis and I think a lot of experts considered him as the best Heavyweight not only between 1931 and 1933 but also between 1936 and 1938. O.k. ....that's dicussable but fact is: Max Schmeling have had two "primes" in his career.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 08 Oct 2006, 20:29

Friedie wrote:
Decagon wrote:Not true. Schmeling was ranked the #2 contender before the Louis win, and he had a good claim to being the best in the world during that time, being the #1 contender to Braddock and Louis. I think most people would have picked him over Braddock in 1937, and the rematch with Louis wasn't supposed to be a one-round blowout.
Yes you're right. Before the first Louis-Fight Max was ranked so high because of his K.o. wins over high ranked fighters Walter Neusel and Steve Hamas. Still Louis thought to be unbeatable in 1936. But in 1938 the chances seemed to be even at least. Max had 3 more good Fights (Harry Thomas, Ben Foord, and Steve Dudas) the K.o. over Louis and I think a lot of experts considered him as the best Heavyweight not only between 1931 and 1933 but also between 1936 and 1938. O.k. ....that's dicussable but fact is: Max Schmeling have had two "primes" in his career.

So who do you guys think would have won Schmeling vs. Louis in 1937. My odds: 20:80.

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 09 Oct 2006, 00:35

pundit wrote:
So who do you guys think would have won Schmeling vs. Louis in 1937. My odds: 20:80.

tough question...depends on the circumstances too....
if the fight would have been outside the U.S. ....probably in Germany... I would favorite Max.

:box

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 09 Oct 2006, 21:06

Friedie wrote:
pundit wrote:
So who do you guys think would have won Schmeling vs. Louis in 1937. My odds: 20:80.
tough question...depends on the circumstances too....
if the fight would have been outside the U.S. ....probably in Germany... I would favorite Max.

:box

I like Max, but you break all records.

scartissue · Post by **scartissue** » 09 Oct 2006, 23:11

Pundit, your theory on their primes was on the money IMO. And lets not forget, Sharkey was not just beating Schmeling in their first fight but beating on him. Both in their prime, Sharkey all the way.

Scartissue

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 10 Oct 2006, 00:34

pundit wrote:
Friedie wrote:
pundit wrote:
So who do you guys think would have won Schmeling vs. Louis in 1937. My odds: 20:80.
tough question...depends on the circumstances too....
if the fight would have been outside the U.S. ....probably in Germany... I would favorite Max.

:box
I like Max, but you break all records.

Your odds for a fight in the U.S. were 80:20 (so you include a slight 1:4 chance for Max to win too).... my odds for a fight in Germany were 45:55 .....so I don't see your point.
;)

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 10 Oct 2006, 00:39

scartissue wrote: And lets not forget, Sharkey was not just beating Schmeling in their first fight but beating on him.

Scartissue

he was beating him under his belt. Probably Sharkey have had a small point lead after 3 rounds...but he was not beating Max up. And don't forget, Schmeling was a slow starter. Louis won the first 3 rounds in their 1936 fight too. As did Stribling in 1931 or many others.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 10 Oct 2006, 10:07

Friedie wrote:
pundit wrote:
Friedie wrote: tough question...depends on the circumstances too....
if the fight would have been outside the U.S. ....probably in Germany... I would favorite Max.

:box
I like Max, but you break all records.
Your odds for a fight in the U.S. were 80:20 (so you include a slight 1:4 chance for Max to win too).... my odds for a fight in Germany were 45:55 .....so I don't see your point.
;)

Fight in the US 80:20 Louis, fight in Germany 70:30 Louis. Schmeling had a puncher's chance against Louis (as he did in 1936), no more no less, and this chance was sharply reduced after Louis corrected the defensive flaw that Schmeling exploited in their first fight.

Cheers,
P

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 10 Oct 2006, 10:36

pundit wrote:
Fight in the US 80:20 Louis, fight in Germany 70:30 Louis. Schmeling had a puncher's chance against Louis (as he did in 1936), no more no less, and this chance was sharply reduced after Louis corrected the defensive flaw that Schmeling exploited in their first fight.

Cheers,
P

hmmm...but Braddock floored Louis 1937 by using Schmelings tactics.

I think Louis never corrected that flaw completly.

Cheers, F.
;)

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 10 Oct 2006, 10:44

Friedie wrote:
pundit wrote:
Fight in the US 80:20 Louis, fight in Germany 70:30 Louis. Schmeling had a puncher's chance against Louis (as he did in 1936), no more no less, and this chance was sharply reduced after Louis corrected the defensive flaw that Schmeling exploited in their first fight.

Cheers,
P
hmmm...but Braddock floored Louis 1937 by using Schmelings tactics.

I think Louis never corrected that flaw completly.

Cheers, F.
;)

Nice to hear someone voicing a concern that increasingly haunts me...

scartissue · Post by **scartissue** » 10 Oct 2006, 20:59

I have seen the 4th round of Sharkey-Schmeling and to me Sharkey's giving him a going over. But, nevertheless, I'll acquiesce to an account of the fight. This quote was from 'Boxing: the 20th century' by Stanley Weston and Steve Farhood, "Schmeling featured the harder punch but Sharkey was far more skilled and easily took rounds 1, 2 and 3. In the 4th however, chaos reigned. Driven to the ropes, Sharkey responded with a heavy hook that landed below Schmeling's beltline and the German fell to the canvas."

Again I say, both in their prime Sharkey pounds out a 15 round decision.

Scartissue

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 11 Oct 2006, 09:18

Friedie wrote:
pundit wrote:
Fight in the US 80:20 Louis, fight in Germany 70:30 Louis. Schmeling had a puncher's chance against Louis (as he did in 1936), no more no less, and this chance was sharply reduced after Louis corrected the defensive flaw that Schmeling exploited in their first fight.

Cheers,
P
hmmm...but Braddock floored Louis 1937 by using Schmelings tactics.

I think Louis never corrected that flaw completly.

Cheers, F.
;)

Good point; I just fail to believe that Louis would have fallen to the same mistake again agasint Schmelng in 1937. He sure didn't in 1938.

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 11 Oct 2006, 11:17

pundit wrote:
Good point; I just fail to believe that Louis would have fallen to the same mistake again agasint Schmelng in 1937. He sure didn't in 1938.

The 1938 fight went too short to conclude that I think. Even in 1936 it took a few rounds before Louis made the mistake and Schmeling punched his right hand over Louis left jab. Schmeling was a slow starter. And that was maybe his flaw, that Louis detected and made to his advantage in the rematch.

Don't forget that Max' back was injured very badly after only one minute. He was not able to realize his tactics in that bout. I think it was a miracle that Max got up again 3 times... The circumstances of this fight were probably the worst a Boxer ever had to face. Beginning by an atmosphere of hate (wich I can understand, but the situation in Germany wasn't Schmelings making), Schmelings "walk in", where he had been guarded by 20 policemen, Joe Jacobs was not allowed in his corner.... Max was nearly alone against 70.000.... That wasn't the real Max Schmeling in that fight.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 11 Oct 2006, 11:57

Friedie wrote:
pundit wrote:
Good point; I just fail to believe that Louis would have fallen to the same mistake again agasint Schmelng in 1937. He sure didn't in 1938.
The 1938 fight went too short to conclude that I think. Even in 1936 it took a few rounds before Louis made the mistake and Schmeling punched his right hand over Louis left jab. Schmeling was a slow starter. And that was maybe his flaw, that Louis detected and made to his advantage in the rematch.

Don't forget that Max' back was injured very badly after only one minute. He was not able to realize his tactics in that bout. I think it was a miracle that Max got up again 3 times... The circumstances of this fight were probably the worst a Boxer ever had to face. Beginning by an atmosphere of hate (wich I can understand, but the situation in Germany wasn't Schmelings making), Schmelings "walk in", where he had been guarded by 20 policemen, Joe Jacobs was not allowed in his corner.... Max was nearly alone against 70.000.... That wasn't the real Max Schmeling in that fight.

Schmeling was totally overwhelmed in the refight, even before the kidney punch. He tried to land his hard right but couldn't.

Btw, many tried to overwhelm Schmeling in the early rounds, including Sharkey in 1930. Noone could, for that Schmeling was defensively too strong. Except Louis.

Sharkey vs Schmeling

Who was the better Heavyweight ?

Sharkey vs Schmeling

Re: Sharkey vs Schmeling