gil's Refined Ranking System

[gilgamesh]

Buster Douglas - L KO 10 (-30 points) due to the fact that it was a particularly embarrassing upset defeat

Evander Holyfield - L TKO 11 (-10 points) due to the fact that it was a great fight, and one of the best of the year Tyson only loses 10 instead of 20

Evander Holyfield - L DQ 3 (-30 points) due to the unusual and particularly embarrassing nature of this defeat it's -30.

Lennox Lewis - L KO 8 (-20 points) A standard KO loss. -20

Danny Williams - L KO 4 (-30 points) An embarrassing KO loss -30

Kevin McBride - L TKO 6 (-30 points) An embarrassing TKO loss -30

And as a Professional courtesy I simply ignored the Jake Paul farce in his Final score.

There ya go. I knew I had answered that before

I'm getting old and I've had too many concussions to remember shit like that.

I really admire the work you've put into this, so criticizing you isn't easy, BUT, I don't think you can score the same points for McBride and Douglas. That's gotta be a flaw in your system. I'd hate to see how many points SRR will get taken off for his losses past his prime. Battling Siki could end up with a minus score.

And Keith for the record I don't take any offense to any criticism of this system or the conclusions that come from it. I welcome every agreement and disagreement that may come as a result of my system here because I truly believe in the integrity and the intent behind it.

Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with my findings I'll continue on critiquing fighters in this manner until someone can come up with, and spell out in as great of detail as I have why they'd rate fighters how they would. I've tried my best to represent every facet of the game in this system, and honestly the only criticism I've ever seen is stuff like "Well this loss doesn't really matter because...." or "That win doesn't really count because...."....Excuses. Excuses from people who want to make their own reasoning behind things. My system represents facts. The same exact facts applied across the board for every fight and every fighter.

In the words of Dave Mustaine from Megadeth "if there's a new way. I'll be the first in line, but it better work this time"

[gilgamesh]

Hasim "The Rock" Rahman

With a record of 50-9-2 (41 KO's). Hasim Rahman competed in 6 Heavyweight Championship fights with a record of 1-4-1 in them. (I believe the Monte Barrett bout was an Interim Title fight, and not an actual title fight. Correct me if I'm wrong on that)

He has 3 Quality wins (Trevor Berbick, Corrie Sanders and Lennox Lewis) and 1 All Time Great win (Lennox Lewis)

His overall score comes to 168 points

[gilgamesh]

Junto "Big Bang" Nakatani

With a record of 32-0 (24 KO's). He has competed in 10 Championship fights with a record of 10-0 in them.

He has 5 Quality wins (Francisco Rodriguez Jr, Andrew Moloney, Tasana Salapat, David Cuellar and Sebastian Reyes)

His score heading into the upcoming Naoya Inoue fight comes to 201 points

[gilgamesh]

Particularly interesting to note that even though Naoya Inoue and Junto Nakatani are both entering their contest with the same record of 32-0. There is a 425 point gap between them.

Obviously a victory for Nakatani goes a long way in narrowing that gap, but the fact that Inoue is that far ahead in the same amount of fights really highlights the level he's been operating at.

[gilgamesh]

"The Nigerian Nightmare" Samuel Peter

With a record of 38-9 (31 KO's). Peter competed in 3 Heavyweight Championship bouts with a record of 1-2 in them.

He has 3 Quality wins (James Toney 2x, and Oleg Maskaev)

His overall score comes to 6 points

[gilgamesh]

If Peter's low score seems insulting at first glance. Understand that there will be some Fighters I list that will arrive at less than 0 points. I will simply list all of these Fighters under the same category of "Unrated" and spare them the embarrassment of logging how many points in the negative they are. (Though I'd tell you via PM if you cared enough to ask me)

A fighter with a score that low is not me saying they suck or aren't worth remembering. It's simply an acknowledgement that they're probably not up to snuff when it comes to conversations of "Who's the Greatest there ever was"

If you're remembered at all. You weren't nothing, and I'm not demeaning you. Any fighter that I mention in this thread in any capacity, I've taken the time to watch every fight they have on video, and take in as much of their career and their essence as a fighter as I could. So even if nobody else remembers them, goddammit I do.

[pound per pound]

Seems like your performance ranking part would penalise fighters for winning easily but unexcitingly. And potentially reward fighters for making hard work of opponents.

For example, should Ibeabuchi get a higher performance rating for brawling with Tua than Lewis does for outboxing him in boring fight? Should Tim Bradley get more points for getting hurt early and dragged into a war vs Provodnikov, which was fight of the year, than if he’d completely outclassed him in a less exciting fight?

Let me know if I’ve misunderstood.

Fury getting 0 performance score for dethroning Wlad is silly IMO

Well, I will have to take a look at this, then digest it.


ome of the ratings outside the top 20 are silly.

1. Muhammad Ali - 1107 points
2. Joe Louis - 899 points
3. George Foreman - 694 points
4. Larry Holmes - 576 points
5. Lennox Lewis - 500 points
6. Rocky Marciano - 474 points
7. Evander Holyfield - 461 Points
8. Riddick Bowe - 448 points
9. Wladimir Klitschko - 426 points
10. Mike Tyson - 397 points
11. Joe Frazier - 353 points
12. Tyson Fury - 346 points
13. Sonny Liston - 284 points
14. Vitali Klitschko - 265 points
15 (tied). Oleksandr Usyk - 241 points
15 (tied). Tommy Morrison - 241 points - No way
17 (tied). Deontay Wilder - 227 points
17 (tied). David Tua - 227 points
19. Anthony Joshua - 223 Points
20. Floyd Patterson - 198 points
21. Ken Norton - 169 points
22. Hasim Rahman - 168 points
23. Joseph Parker - 149 points
24. Frank Bruno - 130 points
25. Daniel Dubois - 126 points - No way.
26 (tied). Jersey Joe Walcott - 113 points
26 (tied) . Ingemar Johansson - 113 points
28. Fabio Wardley - 110 points - Heck no
29. Michael Moorer - 96 points
30. Tim Witherspoon - 94 points
31. Michael Spinks - 92 points
32. Michael Dokes - 88 points
33. Roy Jones Jr. - 11 points - There are several better choices.
34. Samuel Peter - 6 points - No way



If you must pick a fighter who was actuve from 2000-2026 I would chose Povetkin or Fury over the names questioned.

[gilgamesh]

I'm just covering fighters as I cover them. Many of the fighters are not in their final spot on the rankings board, and will drop further down as I cover more qualified fighters that will be joining the list, and taking their spot.

So when you see a guy that's 24 or 30 on my list, that doesn't necessarily mean he's the 30th best Heavyweight ever in my book. It just means he's the 30th best of the ones I've covered up to this point. The list is expanding as long as this whole project seems worthwhile to me, and I wanted to add the most noteworthy active fighters so that we could see their all time standing rise or fall in real time for reference sake, and for proper context because I know people tend to get over excited about the new kids on the block when they're doing big things.

Also Fury was already on the list.

There's very few people who could possibly ever be crashing the Top 10, and the ones that could are obvious I think.

[gilgamesh]

I actually wouldn't have even bothered listing Roy Jones Jr. with his 1 Heavyweight fight if someone hadn't come along that had a lower score than his 1 fight gave him. I found that an amusing little anomaly, and it actually makes sense where it places him in the context of the big picture at Heavyweight. Or at least so far it seems to.

[gilgamesh]

With his victory today over Nakatani the current P4P #1 Naoya Inoue has added 59 points, and another Gold star victory to his ledger.

Junto Nakatani has lost 10 points.

[gilgamesh]

David "The Mexican Monster" Benavidez

With a current record of 32-0 with 26 KO's. He has competed in 6 Championship fights with a record of 6-0 in them.

He has beaten 4 Quality opponents to date (Anthony Dirrell, Caleb Plant, Oleksandr Gvozdyk and Gilberto "Zurdo" Ramirez) He has 1 Gold star victory (Zurdo)

As of this moment after his most recent bout on May 2, 2026. His career points stand at 244 points

[gilgamesh]

"The Boilermaker" Jim Jeffries

With a record of 19-1-2 (16 KO's). Jeffries competed in 9 Heavyweight Championship bouts with a record of 8-1 in them.

He has 6 Quality victories (Bob Fitzsimmons 2x, James J. Corbett 2x, Peter Jackson, and Tom Sharkey in their rematch)

He has 1 Gold star victory (Fitzsimmons) in their 1st contest.

He finishes with an overall score of 249 points

[gilgamesh]

"The Little Giant of Hanover" Tommy Burns

With a record of 47-4-8 (35 KO's). Burns competed in 15 Heavyweight Championship fights and has a record of 14-1 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Marvin Hart and Philadelphia Jack O'Brien)

Burns really never competed as a Heavyweight until his Heavyweight Title challenge of Marvin Hart. All of his bouts prior to that would've been considered Middleweight contests, the official weights aren't always listed, but the ones that are were contracted for the Middleweight limit or lighter.

As a Heavyweight Burns compiled 147 points

His overall score factoring in all of his bouts at Heavyweight and under comes to 171 points

[gilgamesh]

"The Galveston Giant" Jack Johnson

With a record of 53-11-8 (33 KO's). Johnson competed in 9 Heavyweight Championship fights with a record of 6-1-2 in them.

He has 9 Quality victories (Sam McVea 3x, Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette 3x, Tommy Burns and Jim Jeffries). He has other wins over Jeanette that are not considered especially significant due to the shortness in length of the bout.

He has 5 Gold star victories (McVea 3x, Langford, Jeffries)

His overall score comes to 246 points

Johnson has 2 early bouts that were billed as being for the Texas State Middleweight Title, but in his 4th bout his loss to Klondike Haynes. Haynes claimed the Black Heavyweight title, so it can be fairly presumed, but not fully verified that Johnson's earliest few bouts were Middleweight contests.

[gilgamesh]

"The Manassa Mauler" Jack Dempsey

With a record of 53-6-8 (43 KO's). Dempsey competed in 8 Heavyweight Championship fights with a record of 6-2 in them.

He has 4 Quality wins (Jess Willard, Georges Carpentier, Tommy Gibbons and Jack Sharkey). 2 of those are consider Gold Star victories (Carpentier and Sharkey, the Sharkey win was a Non title bout)

All in all his score comes to 264 points

[Ezzard]

So now we come to the breakdown of Muhammad Ali "The Greatest of All Times"

And his claim to that as a Heavyweight or even as a Pound for Pound Great is about as good as it gets. He has a record of 56-5 with 37 KO's. He has 25 Championship bouts going 22-3 in them.

He has 3 All Time Great wins (Liston, Foreman, Frazier 3). He has 5 Gold star wins (3 non title) (Jerry Quarry 1, Frazier 2, Norton 2 and 3, and Bob Foster) and 28 Quality opponents in an absolutely amazing Heavyweight career.

He loses no points for his loss to Joe Frazier in the Fight of the Century because it's one of the Greatest Fights of All Time, and it raises his legacy honestly to have been a part of it.

When you take it all in his total score comes to 1107 Points. He truly is The Greatest of All Times.

- And Yet---

"The Brown Bomber" Joe Louis

With a record of 66-3 with 52 KO's. He competed in 28 Heavyweight Championship bouts winning 27 of them, and making 26 consecutive World Title defenses. A record that still holds to this day.

He beat about 14 Quality opponents (Carnera, Sharkey, Braddock, Sharkey, Schmeling 2, Buddy Baer 2x, Billy Conn 2x, Abe Simon 2x, Joe Walcott 2x, and Jimmy Bivins) He has what I would consider to be 3 Gold star wins (Max Baer, Schmeling 2, Walcott 2)

He finishes with a score of 899 Points

And I'd also like to add what a gift it is to the Boxing Historians among us that so many of the fights of Joe Louis are available on video. It's amazing how well the video for some of those fights from the 1930's holds up, and it's also amazing how many of the Pre-World Title bouts of Joe Louis were filmed. A real treasure trove of footage.

I don't consider 2 highly controversial fights with Liston worth a Gold Star rating. As physical assets go, Liston was top shelf and frankly screwed in the 2nd Ali fight due to one of the All Time Disasters in officiating by Maine officials and particular JJ Walcott in a Heavy title fight with what is the All Time smallest, teensy really attendances since modern Heavy history post Jack Dempsey, ie 2434.

The Foreman fight was another travesty in that Foreman was on his feet looking at Clayton when he was waved off at the 9 second mark. The scores were a joke with Foreman giving Ali a beating in their first fight that he never fully recovered from. Then he ducked the immediate lucrative rematch offered by a black oilman in Indonesia to get beat up for peanut$ by Wepner so badly he was bawling to the ref.

Shortly after that fight Big George made an exhibition 5x 3 rd Heavy exhibition in Canada where he knocked out all but Terry Daniels. Ali attended while screaming to George at ringside he ain't ever getting another fight. Security had to escort him back to his seat several times.

Then the drugging by his trainer Sadler in the dressing room before the Ali fight where Foreman had to fire Sadler and Archie Moore. Archie was later hired by George in his comeback after convincing him he was not part of the drugging.

Joe has almost as many KOs as Ali has fights and the few controversies he had he settled by KO in the rematches.

I've watched all of Ali fights and all of Joe's title fights and Joe never stunk out the ring like Ali did too many times while acting like a clown.

Of your Gold Star rankings, the Norton and Frazier 3rd fights were typical in that both beat Ali up for 15 rds to limited
credit. Frazier in particular was on his feet jumping up and down in his corner waiting for the 15th rd. Meanwhile Ali was screaming to Angelo to cut the gloves off like he screamed in the first Liston fight.

I'll just close with Ali screaming(Ali easily went hysteric in public settings), ie Liston, Foreman, and even the long retired Louis.

When mocked for his Bum of the Month record by the new champ, Muhammad Ali, Joe kept it simple and on target…

“I’d make you one of my bums too.”...

Did Archie ever make any statement private or public about Sadler? I would love to hear how he convinced George that he had nothing to do with the drugging.

Before other posters start whining - all that matters here is George's belief.

Archie and Sadler must ave been close. Is it possible Archie did not know?

[mattdonnellon]

I don't mean to demean a big undertaking but a system that has a Jeffries win over Peter Jackson as in any way meaningful, needs tweaking.

[gilgamesh]

"The Black Uhlan of the Rhine" Max Schmeling

With a record of 56-10-4 (39 KO's). Schmeling competed in 3 Heavyweight Championship fights with a record of 1-2 in them.

He has 4 Quality wins (Joe Louis, Jack Sharkey, Young Stribling and Mickey Walker)

He has 1 All Time great Non Title win (Joe Louis) and 1 Gold star win (Young Stribling)

His overall score comes to 129 points

[gilgamesh]

"The Boston Gob" Jack Sharkey

With a record of 37-13-3 (13 KO's). Sharkey competed in 3 Heavyweight Championship fights with record of 1-2 in them, and his 1 win via a highly dubious decision in his rematch with Schmeling.

He has 7 Quality wins (Tommy Loughran, Mike McTigue, Primor Carnera, Jack Delaney, Harry Wills, Johnny Risko and Young Stribling and if you want to add a very shaky 8th win to that list you could say Max Schmeling*)

Of those wins 1 is a Gold Star victory (Tommy Loughran)

Also noteworthy is that his losing effort against Dempsey in between the 2 Dempsey-Tunney bouts was one of Dempsey's most exciting bouts still preserved on film. One of Sharkey's as well for that matter.

Overall his score comes to 31 points

[gilgamesh]

"The Livermore Larupper" Max Baer

With a record of 66-13 (51 KO's). Baer competed in 2 Heavyweight Championship bouts with a record of 1-1 in them.

He has 9 Quality wins (Schmeling, Carnera, Levinsky 2x, Heeney 2x, Johnny Risko, Tommy Farr and Pat Comiskey)

He has 1 Gold Star victory in a Non Title bout (Max Schmeling)

His overall score comes to 91 points

[gilgamesh]

"The Ambling Alp" Primo Carnera

With a record of 88-14 (71 KO's). Carnera competed in 4 Heavyweight Championship fights with a record of 3-1 in them.

He has 5 Quality wins (Sharkey, Loughran, Levinsky 2x and Young Stribling) though it was only a DQ win against Stribling.

His overall score comes to 120 points

[gilgamesh]

"The Fighting Marine" Gene Tunney

With a record of 65-1-1 (48 KO's). Tunney competed in 3 Heavyweight Championship fights with a record of 3-0 in them.

He has 10 Quality victories (Tommy Loughran, Greb 3x (1 being a Newspaper decision), Georges Carpentier, Tommy Gibbons, Johnny Risko, Jack Dempsey 2x and Tom Heeney)

He has 4 Gold Star victories (Dempsey 2x, Gibbons and Carpentier) and 2 All Time Great victories (Greb 2x) in 15 rounders. His 10 round Newspaper win over Greb isn't counted as a Gold Star victory, but is still acknowledged as a victory in my book.

Starting at his 1924 bout with Jeff Smith is the first time he is acknowledged to have officially weighed in above the Heavyweight limit so I consider his final bouts from that bout onward as his Heavyweight career. In those bouts 10 bouts he amassed a score of 206 points.

For his career overall including his work at Light Heavyweight his score comes to 476 points

[gilgamesh]

Pinklon Thomas

With a record of 43-7-1 (34 KO's). Thomas competed in 3 Heavyweight Championship fights and has a record of 2-1 in them.

Thomas has 2 Quality wins (Tim Witherspoon and Mike Weaver)

His overall score comes to 5 points

[gilgamesh]

Andy "The Destroyer" Ruiz

With a record of 35-2-1 (22 KO's). Ruiz has fought in 3 Heavyweight Championship bouts with a record of 1-2 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Anthony Joshua and Luis Ortiz) and 1 Gold Star win (Joshua)

He hasn't fought since his 2024 Draw with Jarrell Miller, and may never fight again. As it stands as of this moment, and until he should fight again his score is 188 points.

[gilgamesh]

"The Pottawatomie Giant" Jess Willard

With a record of 22-5-1 (20 KO's). Willard competed in 3 Heavyweight Championship fights, and has a record of 2-1 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Jack Johnson and Floyd Johnson) 1 of them is an All Time Great win (Jack Johnson)

His score overall comes to 75 points