1988 Mike Tyson vs 2011 Wladimir Klitschko - who would win this match ?

[Ambling Alp II]

Bonecrusher had a much better chin though. The first time Tyson hit Klitschko with anything, it would be over. The over under here is 2 rounds.

[gilgamesh]

Bonecrusher had a much better chin though. The first time Tyson hit Klitschko with anything, it would be over. The over under here is 2 rounds.

Did Bonecrusher have a better chin? He was knocked out 7 times in 62 fights while Wladimir was knocked out 4 times in 69 fights.

[Ambling Alp II]

He might have landed a couple of jabs. But nobody is going to care when the result is a brutal KO/TKO 1 or 2 loss.

[gilgamesh]

He might have landed a couple of jabs. But nobody is going to care when the result is a brutal KO/TKO 1 or 2 loss.

Wouldn't happen in 1 or 2 rounds I don't think though it's not impossible. It'd take some doing, and some patience from Mike. A focused body attack early in the bout to open up the big shots to the head later in the fight.

Mike had trouble with tall guys. It took him 5 rounds to Mike Jameson out of there, and Jameson was a limited slugger who couldn't do much, but he was a little hard to reach because he was tall. Wlad is a lot taller and a lot better than Mike Jameson. He's a lot better than Bonecrusher Smith.

I do think Mike in all likelihood would beat him, but it's going to be a tough fight, and Wlad would win a lot of the rounds he didn't get hurt or dropped in especially if he was able to extend the fight into the 5th round or so, and get to the point when Mike tended to start to have to pace himself a little.

[Syntax Error]

The rapist by stoppage for me. Wlad's style depended on being in the centre ring and 88 Tyson would thrive on that. Tyson would come out firing, moving his head and Wlad would clinch...... a lot. At some point, Wlad would have to roll the dice and when he did, he'd be stopped. In 88, Tyson was a fearsome puncher with a great chin.

I see it a bit differently; Tyson was not very good against clinchers and Wlad was the master at clinching.

Tyson seemed to lack the ability or the desire to punch his way out of clinches.

Look at the Boneclutcher fight where Smith just clung onto Tyson like Mike was his new girlfriend and they were on a date and Tyson couldn't do anything about it.

Wladimir is not only a master clincher, he's a better fighter than Boneclutcher Smith.

Yeah, but Bonecrusher lost ever round against Tyson. How is that being, 'not very good against clinchers'?

In the sense that Tyson wasn't very impressive against a passive guy who didn't want to fight, but just hold.

Their fight was truly dire.

Yes, Tyson won every round, but that's because he forced the action and Smith did next to nothing but hold.

Tyson didn't dominate nor punish Smith in the clinches.

Could you imagine Smith doing that to someone like Riddick Bowe, or similar, someone with a good inside game?

[keithmoonhangover]

I wouldn't think so either, but he'd surely have more success than Bonecrusher did which was essentially none.

No, I agree. I just don't think Tyson did badly against huggers.

[keithmoonhangover]

I see it a bit differently; Tyson was not very good against clinchers and Wlad was the master at clinching.

Tyson seemed to lack the ability or the desire to punch his way out of clinches.

Look at the Boneclutcher fight where Smith just clung onto Tyson like Mike was his new girlfriend and they were on a date and Tyson couldn't do anything about it.

Wladimir is not only a master clincher, he's a better fighter than Boneclutcher Smith.

Yeah, but Bonecrusher lost ever round against Tyson. How is that being, 'not very good against clinchers'?

In the sense that Tyson wasn't very impressive against a passive guy who didn't want to fight, but just hold.

Their fight was truly dire.

Yes, Tyson won every round, but that's because he forced the action and Smith did next to nothing but hold.

Tyson didn't dominate nor punish Smith in the clinches.

Could you imagine Smith doing that to someone like Riddick Bowe, or similar, someone with a good inside game?

I said it at the time and I'll say it now. Tyson wasn't a great inside fighter.

[Syntax Error]

Yeah, but Bonecrusher lost ever round against Tyson. How is that being, 'not very good against clinchers'?

In the sense that Tyson wasn't very impressive against a passive guy who didn't want to fight, but just hold.

Their fight was truly dire.

Yes, Tyson won every round, but that's because he forced the action and Smith did next to nothing but hold.

Tyson didn't dominate nor punish Smith in the clinches.

Could you imagine Smith doing that to someone like Riddick Bowe, or similar, someone with a good inside game?

I said it at the time and I'll say it now. Tyson wasn't a great inside fighter.

Agreed, such a strange phenomenon.

Tyson is short, with short arms and with terrific handspeed, he was almost designed to be a great in-fighter, but somehow, he just wasn't.

Contrast that with Riddick Bowe, tall, with long levers, totally the wrong build for in-fighting, but you'd struggle to find a better in-fighter than him.

[Cojimar 1946]

Bonecrusher had a much better chin though. The first time Tyson hit Klitschko with anything, it would be over. The over under here is 2 rounds.

Tyson was stopped 5 times. Surely he had a terrible chin by that logic

[Ambling Alp II]

Seriously? I hated Tyson as much as anyone, but come on. You have to take into consideration the stage of a fighter's career. He got stopped by Holyfield and Douglas. against, both, he took a lot of good shots. It was not just one good punch that that led to the stoppage. He was way, way past it against the others.

You can watch Tyson in many fights where he took some good shots.

Klitschko got stopped by a complete journeyman.
Klitschko got brutally topped by Sanders. Who wasn't ranked at the time and suddenly got called a big puncher after the crushing Klitschko.
Klitschko got stopped by LaMont Brewster, who was virtually unknown at the time.
Got decked 3x by Samuel Peter. If Peter knew what he was doing, he would have stopped him as well.

Tyson has a much better chin. This isn't something that we should have to debate.

[gilgamesh]

Seriously? I hated Tyson as much as anyone, but come on. You have to take into consideration the stage of a fighter's career. He got stopped by Holyfield and Douglas. against, both, he took a lot of good shots. It was not just one good punch that that led to the stoppage. He was way, way past it against the others.

You can watch Tyson in many fights where he took some good shots.

Klitschko got stopped by a complete journeyman.
Klitschko got brutally topped by Sanders. Who wasn't ranked at the time and suddenly got called a big puncher after the crushing Klitschko.
Klitschko got stopped by LaMont Brewster, who was virtually unknown at the time.
Got decked 3x by Samuel Peter. If Peter knew what he was doing, he would have stopped him as well.

Tyson has a much better chin. This isn't something that we should have to debate.

This isn't something we should have to debate. Is your go to line like "Different class" is elmer's.

Getting decked by Sanders is really the only time Wlad was ever blown out.

Against Brewster it seemed to be a stamina issue much more than a chin issue. He looked completely exhausted, probably because he assumed he was just gonna blow Brewster outta there early and easy which he almost did, and punched himself out in the attempt.

In the Purrity fight it was neither a stamina nor a chin issue. There was a clash of heads at the end of the 10th round and when Wlad came out for the 11th he stumbled as he walked out of his corner and his corner chose to throw the towel in to save him from further punishment. It's a bad loss on paper, but their decision to spare him any further damage while concussed was almost certainly the right call for the sake of his career in the long run.

Against Peter he was dropped 3 times and still won the fight. Can you name a fight where Mike was knocked down even once and won?

[Cojimar 1946]

Seriously? I hated Tyson as much as anyone, but come on. You have to take into consideration the stage of a fighter's career. He got stopped by Holyfield and Douglas. against, both, he took a lot of good shots. It was not just one good punch that that led to the stoppage. He was way, way past it against the others.

You can watch Tyson in many fights where he took some good shots.

Klitschko got stopped by a complete journeyman.
Klitschko got brutally topped by Sanders. Who wasn't ranked at the time and suddenly got called a big puncher after the crushing Klitschko.
Klitschko got stopped by LaMont Brewster, who was virtually unknown at the time.
Got decked 3x by Samuel Peter. If Peter knew what he was doing, he would have stopped him as well.

Tyson has a much better chin. This isn't something that we should have to debate.

He subsequently had success against guys who were more dangerous punchers than the guys who stopped him so it seems the chin issue for whatever reason because less of a factor. Plus two of the kayo losses were due to fatigue and not chin.

There seems to be a double standard in terms of losses. Wlads bad losses are brought up as evidence he wasn't very good but Lewis and Tysons losses are ignored.

For example Usyk never lost in his prime while Lewis was kayoed by.McCall and Rahman but you don't see these bad losses as evidence Usyk was better.

[gilgamesh]

His loss to Purritty was NOT due to fatigue. He was concussed by an accidental headbutt. I don't doubt he was a little tired, as anyone would be after 9 or 10 rounds, but that's not why he lost that bout.

Wladimir generally showed better stamina than Mike Tyson. The only time a stamina issue seemed to arise for Wladimir was in the Brewster fight honestly. His loss to Purritty being blamed on stamina is false.

[Ambling Alp II]

You are living in dream land if you think he had a good chin. Got stopped three times by guys that weren't even ranked. Now we are supposed to give him credit for getting knocked down 3 x by Peter, who was too inept to put him away. Please.
I saw Tyson get nailed many times by guys who could punch and he took it.

And no, Klitschko was nowhere near Tyson's level as a fighter. Tyson was a terrible person. But he was clearly a better fighter and had much better chin than Klitschko.

[gilgamesh]

You are living in dream land if you think he had a good chin. Got stopped three times by guys that weren't even ranked. Now we are supposed to give him credit for getting knocked down 3 x by Peter, who was too inept to put him away. Please.
I saw Tyson get nailed many times by guys who could punch and he took it.

And no, Klitschko was nowhere near Tyson's level as a fighter. Tyson was a terrible person. But he was clearly a better fighter and had much better chin than Klitschko.

Both at their best I'd pick Mike to win the fight, but I wouldn't say it's a guarantee.

Wladimir undoubtedly had the better career overall, and was a better, more disciplined Champion.

Tyson had a better uppercut, better hand speed and better upper body movement and chin than Wlad. Wlad had a better jab, right hand, stamina and more heart, and a better strategic mind.

Mike Tyson had 1 plan. It worked or it didn't. Wladimir could beat you more than 1 way.

[Ambling Alp II]

Better career overall? Maybe in some stupid points system filled with meaningless title defenses against what passed for as contenders, but not in real life. If Klitschko was in Tyson's era, he would have been buried with Witherspoon, Thomas etc.

3 stoppages by losses by unranked opponents during his prime. Never happened to a great heavyweight champion.

[gilgamesh]

Better career overall? Maybe in some stupid points system filled with meaningless title defenses against what passed for as contenders, but not in real life. If Klitschko was in Tyson's era, he would have been buried with Witherspoon, Thomas etc.

3 stoppages by losses by unranked opponents during his prime. Never happened to a great heavyweight champion.

It happened to Wladimir. Wladimir is a great Champion.

Wladimir could've beaten most of Tyson's competition and vice versa. If you think Mike is better than Wlad that's perfectly reasonable, but they're definitely in the same league, and to me Wladimir ranks higher. Wladimir was the more consistent of the 2 over a longer period of time. Tyson was the more spectacular for a brief 3 to 4 year period.

For every other big name fighter the losses are inconsequential to you. For Wladimir, the losses are all there is.

Why Wladimir being credited as a great fighter is so offensive an idea to you, I don't know, but to pretend he wasn't a Great Champion is just ludicrous.

[keithmoonhangover]

Bonecrusher had a much better chin though. The first time Tyson hit Klitschko with anything, it would be over. The over under here is 2 rounds.

Tyson was stopped 5 times. Surely he had a terrible chin by that logic

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

You are living in dream land if you think he had a good chin. Got stopped three times by guys that weren't even ranked. Now we are supposed to give him credit for getting knocked down 3 x by Peter, who was too inept to put him away. Please.
I saw Tyson get nailed many times by guys who could punch and he took it.

And no, Klitschko was nowhere near Tyson's level as a fighter. Tyson was a terrible person. But he was clearly a better fighter and had much better chin than Klitschko.

- The Russian Hatred Force is strong on this topic along with the usual myopic ninnies making a hash out of boxing history.

The Ks turned pro with their ama trainer, now pray tell us the success rate of Hvys in the modern era using ama trainers?

Good Luck!!!

Wlad was the closest to Joe Louis 25 title defenses in a period where the emasculated US boxing fans refused to admit that the Kbros completely dominated the Hvy division.

Louis' first wipeout by what would be a small cruiser today is telling. While he had his fair share of huge SuperHvys he KOed, most all defenses were against what would be smallish SuperMiddles, LHs, and Cruisers. Also back then any lefties had to box orthodox or they couldn't get any good bouts whereas both Ks are impossibly Modern in they fought a lot of lefties who dominate all weight classes since the turn of the Century in proportion to their small % of the population.

Imagine Baseball history without lefties until 2001?

ie: Leftie Corrie Sanders was a fantastical athlete a legend among boxing fans who appreciate the full landscape of boxing. He grew up fighting black South Africans but fell into the unfortunate tail end of the South African Boycott. The sublime Brian Mitchell was forced on the road for example.

Sanders could only be a part time boxer because of that, so he made most all his $$$ playing Rugby and Pro Golf in Africa.

His shock KO of Wlad is easily understood as Wlad still with his ama trainer was ill prepared for the stylistic bombing that started with a leaping southpaw headbutting left hook that Wlad never recovered from though he climbed off the canvas repeatedly.

The US emasculated bleating continues as their best Hvy post Ks is a Al Haymon creation of Deyonce. Haymon first milked l'l floydy into guaranteed gaming house living by screwing a slew of fighters who would start expensive training camps on short notice for l'l floydy who then picked one leaving the rest with unneeded expenses.

Wlad's loss to Brewster was predetermined when the gaming housings suspended wagering a week before their fight because of a HUGE wager on Brewster out of the UK who was barely a prospect who was promoted by forever disreputable DKing of course. Just like the Foreman/Ali fight where I knew Foreman had been drugged in the dark side of Africa, it was clear in a nothing fight vs Brewster where he was steadily popped, muscled against the ropes, and starting to get KDed. His second KD wasn't called by the Incompetent Byrd because Brewster going down headfirst tackled Wlad around the ankles.

When Wlad came out for the 5th he could barely hold his arms up or throw a punch, but Brewster couldn't do anything with him until he winged a swing right over the top of Wlad's head that barely mussed his hair, but Wlad had been bouncing from rope to rope finally collapsing where he was now incoherent and had to be helped to his stool.

Shortly after the fight Klitschko was rushed into the hospital. The examination showed Wladimir's blood sugar level almost two times higher than the permissible norm.
After returning from the examination to the hotel, Klitschko fell ill with nausea, followed by physical weakness.
On April 12, Wladimir arrived in Las Vegas and donated blood and urine samples for an independent examination, which was supposed to be done by Donald Katlin, who specialized in such cases. The examination showed no signs of anabolic steroids in his blood, but Katlin suggested that Klitschko could have been poisoned with Haloperidol. The drug has no taste or smell and causes mental disorders, which are accompanied by impaired coordination, a weakening reaction and overall physical weakness. After that, Wladimir demanded the tests taken by the Medical Center of South Nevada and the Nevada Quest Diagnostics to be passed on to Dr. Robert Wow for further research. However, the A sample had been disposed of, while the B sample, which was supposed to be stored for years, disappeared.
Mysterious circumstances surround loss
Associated Press, May 5, 2004

LAS VEGAS -- An attorney for heavyweight Wladimir Klitschko has asked for a federal investigation of his loss last month to Lamon Brewster.

Judd Burstein sent the U.S. Attorney's office in Las Vegas a letter asking for the probe, citing what he said were mysterious circumstances surrounding the fight.

Burstein claimed in the letter that Klitschko's blood and urine samples taken after the fight were missing, and said it was suspicious that the odds favoring Klitschko dropped dramatically before the fight.

Klitschko was winning the April 10 fight handily before Brewster knocked him out in the fifth round. He later said he felt drugged after the opening round.

Nevada Athletic Commission executive director Marc Ratner said nothing abnormal happened before, during or after the fight.

"We were so concerned that night that we sent him to the trauma unit instead of the emergency room with a neurosurgeon in the ambulance," Ratner said. "He took all the appropriate tests, both urine and blood. There was nothing in those tests irregular or remarkable."

Klitschko's brother, Vitali, won the WBC heavyweight title April 24 when he stopped Corrie Sanders in the eighth round in Los Angeles. [4]

[Cojimar 1946]

Bonecrusher had a much better chin though. The first time Tyson hit Klitschko with anything, it would be over. The over under here is 2 rounds.

Tyson was stopped 5 times. Surely he had a terrible chin by that logic

The chin was a complete non factor for a decade so either it improved or he got better at protecting it. So why are people so fixated on it?

[gilgamesh]

Tyson was stopped 5 times. Surely he had a terrible chin by that logic

The chin was a complete non factor for a decade so either it improved or he got better at protecting it. So why are people so fixated on it?

His defense, pacing and mental focus improved. Being tall, and skilled he was already pretty hard to hit anyway, and during his long Championship run there's not a whole lot of times you can even point to him getting hit cleanly. He definitely mastered how to fight tall, and make himself difficult to hit clean.

Most the knockdows he suffered in his career all occurred within a 2 to 3 year period between 2003 and 2005. After the Sanders demolition job it seemed like it took him quite a while to get his confidence back, and during those few years he seemed particularly chinny, being stopped by Brewster, dropped by Peter 3x, and dropped by Davarryl Williamson. I'm sure part of it was a matter of him being gunshy, and nervous of being knocked out again, and it took him a while to mentally get over those defeats to Sanders and Brewster, but to his credit he eventually got there.

Many guys don't ever get their sh*t together enough to bounce back to a competitive level after things like that. I'm pretty sure Wladimir is in a class by himself as far as turning it completely around to go on to dominate the next 10 years. Can't really think of anyone else who had a rough run of getting stopped or knocked down a lot, and then coming back to that level of prominence in the sport.

Whatever people wanna say about his chin. There's no doubt about his heart or his fighting spirit. He put the work in, and he got better. A lot better. Whether people want to give him credit for it or not.

[keithmoonhangover]

Tyson was stopped 5 times. Surely he had a terrible chin by that logic

The chin was a complete non factor for a decade so either it improved or he got better at protecting it. So why are people so fixated on it?

I'm not sure how Tyson's chin 'improved' after a decade.

[gilgamesh]

The chin was a complete non factor for a decade so either it improved or he got better at protecting it. So why are people so fixated on it?

I'm not sure how Tyson's chin 'improved' after a decade.

I think he meant Wlad. Obviously your chin is what it is, but you can always work on not getting hit as much.

[keithmoonhangover]

The chin was a complete non factor for a decade so either it improved or he got better at protecting it. So why are people so fixated on it?

I'm not sure how Tyson's chin 'improved' after a decade.

I think he meant Wlad. Obviously your chin is what it is, but you can always work on not getting hit as much.

See, I think that someone's punch resistance can improve if their mental game improves.

[gilgamesh]

I'm not sure how Tyson's chin 'improved' after a decade.

I think he meant Wlad. Obviously your chin is what it is, but you can always work on not getting hit as much.

See, I think that someone's punch resistance can improve if their mental game improves.

That may well have been the case with Wladimir. Though I think his improvements in defense and fighting at a more steady, cautious pace played a part as well.

He was definitely gunshy for a few years there following the Sanders loss.

It did seem like surviving the knockdowns against Peter and going on to win fully restored his confidence in himself which had been shaky up until that win.