Evaluation of Alexander Povetkin's career

[gilgamesh]

The big missed opportunity for Povetkin is the Wilder fight. That was a winnable fight for him, and I really wanted to see that one, but alas we didn't get it because Povetkin popped hot.

[DrDuke]

...

So, what are your thoughts on these (purely hypothetical) options?

P.S. Bonus question from me - how do you think Povetkin of 2014-2016 would've fared against Usyk? I think, stylistically it could've been an interesting fight.

The Martin and Parker options were winnable indeed, they just probavly were harder to grab.

Talking about Usyk, his style would be a nighmare for Povetkin. I see Usyk winning a pretty wide decision.

[2128778]

The big missed opportunity for Povetkin is the Wilder fight. That was a winnable fight for him, and I really wanted to see that one, but alas we didn't get it because Povetkin popped hot.

I agree with that. I was gutted, when that Wilder was called off.

[2128778]

...

So, what are your thoughts on these (purely hypothetical) options?

P.S. Bonus question from me - how do you think Povetkin of 2014-2016 would've fared against Usyk? I think, stylistically it could've been an interesting fight.

The Martin and Parker options were winnable indeed, they just probavly were harder to grab.

Talking about Usyk, his style would be a nighmare for Povetkin. I see Usyk winning a pretty wide decision.

Btw, weren't they supposed to fight several years ago? I believe, that's when Usyk planned his HW debut.

[DrDuke]

...

So, what are your thoughts on these (purely hypothetical) options?

P.S. Bonus question from me - how do you think Povetkin of 2014-2016 would've fared against Usyk? I think, stylistically it could've been an interesting fight.

The Martin and Parker options were winnable indeed, they just probavly were harder to grab.

Talking about Usyk, his style would be a nighmare for Povetkin. I see Usyk winning a pretty wide decision.

Btw, weren't they supposed to fight several years ago? I believe, that's when Usyk planned his HW debut.

Nah. I remember, when Usyk was starting doing HW, either himself or Povetkin, or somebody of their teams was saying, that they didn't want to make this fight in order not to make it look like a clash of Russia and Ukraine in the boxing media and fan community.

[2128778]

The Martin and Parker options were winnable indeed, they just probavly were harder to grab.

Talking about Usyk, his style would be a nighmare for Povetkin. I see Usyk winning a pretty wide decision.

Btw, weren't they supposed to fight several years ago? I believe, that's when Usyk planned his HW debut.

Nah. I remember, when Usyk was starting doing HW, either himself or Povetkin, or somebody of their teams was saying, that they didn't want to make this fight in order not to make it look like a clash of Russia and Ukraine in the boxing media and fan community.

Yep. But as I checked old news archives, it appears that Usyk-Povetkin was indeed discussed for May 18, 2019 at a neutral venue in Chicago.

But Usyk stated that he doesn't want to go thru with this fight to avoid "political mud", that would've likely surrounded that fight in media (he was basing it on his previous experience from the Gassiev fight).

Politics aside, I honestly feel like Povetkin of 2014-2016 possessed necessary qualities to really push Usyk. The first half of their fight could've been fun.

[DrDuke]

Btw, weren't they supposed to fight several years ago? I believe, that's when Usyk planned his HW debut.

Nah. I remember, when Usyk was starting doing HW, either himself or Povetkin, or somebody of their teams was saying, that they didn't want to make this fight in order not to make it look like a clash of Russia and Ukraine in the boxing media and fan community.

Yep. But as I checked old news archives, it appears that Usyk-Povetkin was indeed discussed for May 18, 2019 at a neutral venue in Chicago.

But Usyk stated that he doesn't want to go thru with this fight to avoid "political mud", that would've likely surrounded that fight in media (he was basing it on his previous experience from the Gassiev fight).

Politics aside, I honestly feel like Povetkin of 2014-2016 possessed necessary qualities to really push Usyk. The first half of their fight could've been fun.

Imagine what a scrap of these two it could have been now at the venue around Kupyansk or Mala Tokmachka.

[2128778]

Nah. I remember, when Usyk was starting doing HW, either himself or Povetkin, or somebody of their teams was saying, that they didn't want to make this fight in order not to make it look like a clash of Russia and Ukraine in the boxing media and fan community.

Yep. But as I checked old news archives, it appears that Usyk-Povetkin was indeed discussed for May 18, 2019 at a neutral venue in Chicago.

But Usyk stated that he doesn't want to go thru with this fight to avoid "political mud", that would've likely surrounded that fight in media (he was basing it on his previous experience from the Gassiev fight).

Politics aside, I honestly feel like Povetkin of 2014-2016 possessed necessary qualities to really push Usyk. The first half of their fight could've been fun.

Imagine what a scrap of these two it could have been now at the venue around Kupyansk or Mala Tokmachka.

Ouch!. That's some wild stuff)

[pound per pound]

So, several days ago Povetkin has announced retirement from boxing. He is a one of those fighters, who brought me into boxing, he is a one of few boxers, whose career I've been following entirely, which, however, was quite easy for me, as I'm Russian. Actually, I've never been an obligatory fan of my countrymen boxers, but Povetkin obviously impressed me enough to root for him since the Olympics. Thus, it's interesting for me to evaluate his career.

First of all, I think, it's important to estimate Povetkin as a boxer. He truly was a skillful competitor. Probably, it's fair to say, that he adopted the notorious Eastern European style, which means being one-dimensional and robotic, but Povetkin was very good at his dimension. His offensive skills were high, his technique was polished. He was really good in going forward, working hard and breaking down his opponents, what was aided by huge power. He had almost every big scalp with his methodical game, workrate and roughness. Byrd, Chambers, Chagaev, Huck, Charr, Takam, Hammer, Hunter (although it's a draw) - he stuck to his game through his entire career and it was beneficial for him, because he was able to deliver his power that way.

Talking about disadvantages of Povetkin's style, it's important to name a lack of creativity, fluidness, ability to overcome adversity. A pretty common set for the Eastern European hard-working methodical fellows. In the Huck bout, which he arguably lost, he wasn't able to deal with the opponents toughness and dirty tricks. He was forced to bend down all night long, because he found no better escape plan in bad situations. However, you can argue, that he underestimated Huck, wasn't prepared properly and tired fast. Yet in the Klitschko bout he wasn't able to do anything at all against the jab-and-grab tactics of Wlad. Also, Povetkin went clueless, when he was hurt. He wasn't hurt often thankfully to his chin, but in the Joshua bout this disadvantage finally turned crucial, as Povetkin wasn't able to do anything, but going backwards after being rocked.

To conclude the evaluation of the style it's also important to note, that Povetkin should have relied more on his jab. Occasionally his offence went one-dimensional, as sometimes he sank in primitive power-punching attempts. Pretty much all his success in his career was scored with power combinations. Yet against Klitschko Povetkin's break-him-down-with-power tactics didn't work at all. Sometimes he kinda wanted to be like Mike Tyson, but Tyson was on levels better in cutting the distance. Povetkin had great left hook, right hand, downstairs-upstairs switching, but he mostly went directly to this stuff, only with some primitive faints, without any more ingenious setups.

The main problem of Povetkin's career, in my opinion, was his early promotion and coaching. And his team new that. Look at Povetkin's track to the top. He was in the elimination tourney for Klitschko's IBF strap and he won it by defeating Chris Byrd and Eddie Chambers. After that the Klitschko fight was nearly made, but Povetkin pulled out due to an injury, as it had been officially claimed. Soon after his original coach Valeriy Belov was changed to Teddy Atlas. It my opinion, it simply was a move to save Povetkin from possible hard loss to Wlad, to give him more time to prepare. Actually, even the Chambers bout showed some holes in Sasha's game, his team definitely saw it that way.

Atlas was a total mistake. His approach wasn't fitting to Povetkin at all. You can even see this during the Chagaev bout, when Teddy was saying Povetkin all his pretentious Rocky-movie styled nonsense instead of tactical suggestions. The fight itself was tactical and didn't have any drama, even in rare moments, when Chagaev looked better. Atlas looked like a clown. No surprise, that he didn't last long in Povetkin's team.

After Atlas the team Povetkin tried Russian legends, Alexander Zimin and Kostya Tszyu. Well, Tszyu was a strange choice, as he wasn't known as a great coach and he didn't become a one, that's why his time in the Povetkin's camp was brief. Zimin was an accomplished coach, in the pros he was known mostly for being a trainer of Yuri Arbachakov, but his methods obviously didn't work well with Povetkin. However, there was a belief in Zimin from the side of the Povetkin's team. With him Sasha was finally tracked to Klitschko, but we all know, how it ended up.

So, Povetkin had a very arguable track to the top. On the one hand, he was being put away from Klitschko for pretty long. On the other hand, he wasn't matched a lot against truly challenging opponents. He faced Chagaev after Ruslan had lost to Wlad, he was matched against Huck probably because this bout had been seen easy for him. He was facing the likes of Boswell, shot Rahman and Wawrzyk instead of other top guys. It was a typical "preserve 0" track to the championship bout.

After Povetkin lost to Klitschko his career finally went how it should had gone. Probably the main problem was in being managed by Sauerland. After Povetkin teamed up with Ryabinsky and coach Ivan Kirpa, he improved as a boxer and his career went upwards. The bout against Carlos Takam was exactly that kind of fight, which Povetkin had needed much earlier. It was a challenging affair, which made Sasha learn and progress.

Soon Povetkin was tracked to the other title shot, against Wilder, but we all know what happened. In my opinion, Povetkin just became a victim of the sports politics and general World politics of that time. Eventually, Povetkin was even justified in both his drug cases, isn't it thought-provoking? Talking about Povetkin's chances against Wilder, it's pretty fair to see a big possibility of Sasha KOing Wilder back then.

I'd say, 2014-2016 is a period of Povetkin's prime. It featured a KO winning streak over Charr, Takam, Perez, Wach, Duhaupas. He should have faced Wilder in 2016. In my opinion, Povetkin was simply robbed of a title shot. In 2017 years slowly started to show up for Sasha. He decisioned Rudenko and Hammer, whom he could have stopped at least a year earlier. He crushed Price, but not without getting rocked. Still he was able to give a fight to Joshua.

The final part of Povetkin's career was also fine. Obviously, Povetkin was already declined, but still he was able to have a draw with young and fresh Michael Hunter and to KTFO Whyte. It would be perfect, if Povetkin retired after the Whyte win, instantly after getting covid. Sasha had a tough course of corona and clearly he wasn't even at the level of the 1st Whyte bout, when he entered to the 2nd one. Anyway, it's good that Povetkin retired after the Whyte dilogy. Already not perfect, but still in time.

Talking about Povetkin's legacy, it's fair to call him absolutely best Russian heavyweight ever. He wasn't a champion in contrast to Maskaev, Ibragimov and Valuev, but he obviously was a better boxer than all of them, with a better resume. However, with devaluing of belts in the current century a lot of so-called champions can be easily exposed. Povetkin was a top fighter of the division for more than 15 years and he faced a lot of good names.

I'd call Povetkin Russian #3 p4p all time, following Tszyu and Kovalev. In my opinion, Povetkin did more through his career than Arbachakov, Lebedev and Gassiev, despite not grabbing any belts. Although Gassiev has a chance to overcome Povetkin, but I don't believe he will.

To sum it up, that's how I see Povetkin's career. He was far from being a perfect boxer, but he was very good at what he was doing. He was better than many formal heavyweight champions through all boxing history. He had some tracking problems early on, but eventually he appeared to be a long-term top fighter of the heavyweight division. He had a lot of memorable fights, win or lose. It would have been great to see him against the likes of Haye, Wilder, maybe Chisora and someone else, but still he had a very good resume with a lot of exciting fights.

So, what's your opinion about Povetkin's career? Could he be better promoted? Could he achieve more? Was his career satysfying enough?

Povetkin was probably the clear third-best heavyweight in the world, sitting right behind the two Klitschkos until Vitali retired.

[DrDuke]

Povetkin was probably the clear third-best heavyweight in the world, sitting right behind the two Klitschkos until Vitali retired.

Yeah, he was the most worthy candidate for that. Only David Haye could claim the same during his best times.

[gilgamesh]

Povetkin was probably the clear third-best heavyweight in the world, sitting right behind the two Klitschkos until Vitali retired.

Yeah, he was the most worthy candidate for that. Only David Haye could claim the same during his best times.

And Haye's Heavyweight run was much shorter than Povetkin's.

[gilgamesh]

After having just watched all of Povetkin's fights I'd rate him comfortably amongst the Top 40 of all time, possibly higher once all is said and done, but it's hard to imagine he won't remain in the Top 40 with the names I still have to cover.

I got Povetkin ranked just under guys like Andy Ruiz, Ken Norton and Hasim Rahman

And just above guys like Joseph Parker, Ray Mercer, Daniel Dubois, and Frank Bruno.

So he holds a respectable place in the all time annals of Heavyweight history. A solid Top 3 contender for many, many years, having beaten many of the other Top 10 and Top 15 guys of his era.

[DrDuke]

After having just watched all of Povetkin's fights I'd rate him comfortably amongst the Top 40 of all time, possibly higher once all is said and done, but it's hard to imagine he won't remain in the Top 40 with the names I still have to cover.

I got Povetkin ranked just under guys like Andy Ruiz, Ken Norton and Hasim Rahman

And just above guys like Joseph Parker, Ray Mercer, Daniel Dubois, and Frank Bruno.

So he holds a respectable place in the all time annals of Heavyweight history. A solid Top 3 contender for many, many years, having beaten many of the other Top 10 and Top 15 guys of his era.

Well, an interesting choice. Mercer probably should be higher. Dubois is still improving.

[gilgamesh]

After having just watched all of Povetkin's fights I'd rate him comfortably amongst the Top 40 of all time, possibly higher once all is said and done, but it's hard to imagine he won't remain in the Top 40 with the names I still have to cover.

I got Povetkin ranked just under guys like Andy Ruiz, Ken Norton and Hasim Rahman

And just above guys like Joseph Parker, Ray Mercer, Daniel Dubois, and Frank Bruno.

So he holds a respectable place in the all time annals of Heavyweight history. A solid Top 3 contender for many, many years, having beaten many of the other Top 10 and Top 15 guys of his era.

Well, an interesting choice. Mercer probably should be higher. Dubois is still improving.

Povetkin had a little more high level success than Mercer did, and was more consistent. A fight between the two of them both at their best is very interesting though, and could go either way.

Dubois we still don't know for sure where he'll ultimately land. He's very much like the 2nd coming of Frank Bruno style wise, but he could wind up a little better or a little worse when all is said and done. Should be fun to watch him whatever the case, his style makes for fun fights.

[DrDuke]

After having just watched all of Povetkin's fights I'd rate him comfortably amongst the Top 40 of all time, possibly higher once all is said and done, but it's hard to imagine he won't remain in the Top 40 with the names I still have to cover.

I got Povetkin ranked just under guys like Andy Ruiz, Ken Norton and Hasim Rahman

And just above guys like Joseph Parker, Ray Mercer, Daniel Dubois, and Frank Bruno.

So he holds a respectable place in the all time annals of Heavyweight history. A solid Top 3 contender for many, many years, having beaten many of the other Top 10 and Top 15 guys of his era.

Well, an interesting choice. Mercer probably should be higher. Dubois is still improving.

Povetkin had a little more high level success than Mercer did, and was more consistent. A fight between the two of them both at their best is very interesting though, and could go either way.

Dubois we still don't know for sure where he'll ultimately land. He's very much like the 2nd coming of Frank Bruno style wise, but he could wind up a little better or a little worse when all is said and done. Should be fun to watch him whatever the case, his style makes for fun fights.

Mercer was less consistent, but his ups were higher.

Dub is already better than Bruno. Back in his time Bruno was overhyped and overrated, cause he was the only Brit top level HW at some moment.

[Cojimar 1946]

With the wins over Joshua, Hrgovic, Wardley I would definitely think Dubois is well ahead of Bruno

[gilgamesh]

Well, an interesting choice. Mercer probably should be higher. Dubois is still improving.

Povetkin had a little more high level success than Mercer did, and was more consistent. A fight between the two of them both at their best is very interesting though, and could go either way.

Dubois we still don't know for sure where he'll ultimately land. He's very much like the 2nd coming of Frank Bruno style wise, but he could wind up a little better or a little worse when all is said and done. Should be fun to watch him whatever the case, his style makes for fun fights.

Mercer was less consistent, but his ups were higher.

Dub is already better than Bruno. Back in his time Bruno was overhyped and overrated, cause he was the only Brit top level HW at some moment.

I just checked, and I do in fact have Dubois ahead of Bruno so I agree with you. He's more accomplished in his career up to this point than Bruno. It's still somewhat close between 'em though. The gap may widen or shrink depending on what Triple D does from here.

[gilgamesh]

With the wins over Joshua, Hrgovic, Wardley I would definitely think Dubois is well ahead of Bruno

He's not what I would call well ahead, but he's ahead.

[2128778]

After having just watched all of Povetkin's fights I'd rate him comfortably amongst the Top 40 of all time, possibly higher once all is said and done, but it's hard to imagine he won't remain in the Top 40 with the names I still have to cover.

I got Povetkin ranked just under guys like Andy Ruiz, Ken Norton and Hasim Rahman

And just above guys like Joseph Parker, Ray Mercer, Daniel Dubois, and Frank Bruno.

So he holds a respectable place in the all time annals of Heavyweight history. A solid Top 3 contender for many, many years, having beaten many of the other Top 10 and Top 15 guys of his era.

Since you just rewatched Povetkin's fights, I'm interested in some of your Povetkin-related takes :)

1. Which version of Povetkin do you think was the best one?

2. What's your take on how his cancelled title fight with Wilder would've gone in May 2016?

[gilgamesh]

After having just watched all of Povetkin's fights I'd rate him comfortably amongst the Top 40 of all time, possibly higher once all is said and done, but it's hard to imagine he won't remain in the Top 40 with the names I still have to cover.

I got Povetkin ranked just under guys like Andy Ruiz, Ken Norton and Hasim Rahman

And just above guys like Joseph Parker, Ray Mercer, Daniel Dubois, and Frank Bruno.

So he holds a respectable place in the all time annals of Heavyweight history. A solid Top 3 contender for many, many years, having beaten many of the other Top 10 and Top 15 guys of his era.

Since you just rewatched Povetkin's fights, I'm interested in some of your Povetkin-related takes :)

1. Which version of Povetkin do you think was the best one?

2. What's your take on how his cancelled title fight with Wilder would've gone in May 2016?

Well he looked particularly sharp against Carlos Takam I thought. That may be his best performance.

His proposed fight with Wilder was a real 50/50 type matchup and I hate it that it didn't happen. At the time I was picking Povetkin, now I'm not so sure.

[2128778]

After having just watched all of Povetkin's fights I'd rate him comfortably amongst the Top 40 of all time, possibly higher once all is said and done, but it's hard to imagine he won't remain in the Top 40 with the names I still have to cover.

I got Povetkin ranked just under guys like Andy Ruiz, Ken Norton and Hasim Rahman

And just above guys like Joseph Parker, Ray Mercer, Daniel Dubois, and Frank Bruno.

So he holds a respectable place in the all time annals of Heavyweight history. A solid Top 3 contender for many, many years, having beaten many of the other Top 10 and Top 15 guys of his era.

Since you just rewatched Povetkin's fights, I'm interested in some of your Povetkin-related takes :)

1. Which version of Povetkin do you think was the best one?

2. What's your take on how his cancelled title fight with Wilder would've gone in May 2016?

Well he looked particularly sharp against Carlos Takam I thought. That may be his best performance.

His proposed fight with Wilder was a real 50/50 type matchup and I hate it that it didn't happen. At the time I was picking Povetkin, now I'm not so sure.

Yeah, I was really looking forward to that one at the time. Pov had a really good shot to expose Wilder's weaknesses. That said, the knock on Povetkin is that he was always hittable. Not a good thing, if/when you're going against Wilder.

Speaking about Povetkin's form at different stages of his career... Yes, I think his best streak was 2014-2016. Some might attribute that to him being on "the sauce". But I also think he had a good tandem with trainer Ivan Kirpa.

Btw, his pairing with Teddy Atlas wasn't bad at all as well, I must say. I remember that a popular opinion back in the days was that Povetkin regressed under Atlas and that he looked better under the tutelage of his first trainer Valery Belov (with whom he trained up to and including the Estrada fight).

Well, I certainly didn't think so. In my estimation, Povetkin hit his celling with Belov in the Chambers and Estrada fights. Meanwhile, in the Chagaev and Boswell fights, he looked a tad shaper and more improved. Particularly, in terms of punch variety.

I might be wrong, though. I haven't watched his earlier fights of 2005-2009 for quite some time. Going mostly off of my memory.

[gilgamesh]

He looked good in the early fights of his career mostly, but he's not fighting all that tough of competition of course which is standard for prospects.

His punch variety, and timing definitely improves as he goes along.

His most gutsy, and dramatic win is the comeback win against Dillian Whyte in their 1st bout. He's getting his ass kicked the whole fight, and lands just a picture perfect left uppercut out of nowhere right on the button that turns Whyte's lights out. One of the more spectacular 1 punch KO's you'll see.

[2128778]

He looked good in the early fights of his career mostly, but he's not fighting all that tough of competition of course which is standard for prospects.

His punch variety, and timing definitely improves as he goes along.

His most gutsy, and dramatic win is the comeback win against Dillian Whyte in their 1st bout. He's getting his ass kicked the whole fight, and lands just a picture perfect left uppercut out of nowhere right on the button that turns Whyte's lights out. One of the more spectacular 1 punch KO's you'll see.

Yeah, that Whyte comeback KO is literally the movie-type stuff.

You know, I'm still kinda thinking that if Usyk and Povetkin could've faced each other with both in their primes - it would've been an interesting fight between two Olympic Gold Medalists. I believe, Povetkin had the style and abilities to push Usyk.

The question is, what would we consider Usyk's prime and Povetkin's prime?

Usyk has been consistent almost throughout his whole career (perhaps, with the exception of Verkhoven affair).

Whereas Povetkin... Is it 2005-2008, 2009-2011 or 2014-2016?

[gilgamesh]

Whichever version of Povetkin you think is best couldn't beat Usyk in my opinion.

[2128778]

Whichever version of Povetkin you think is best couldn't beat Usyk in my opinion.

Yes, that I agree with.

But the best version of Povetkin could've given Usyk trouble, I think. Defining Povetkin's prime is another thing, though. It's just tough to say.

Age-wise, his prime years should've been 2007-2011.

That said, the consensus seems to be that he had his best form in 2014-2016 (which may or may not have been boosted by "juice').