Without Ali and Louis

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Oct 2006, 04:21

So who would your be your pick?

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 06 Oct 2006, 04:30

Jeffries

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Oct 2006, 04:38

Senya13 wrote:Jeffries

interesting choice, Senya. I nearly didn't put him on the list but then felt he was deserving. What's your reasoning?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Oct 2006, 04:45

Decagon wrote:**Looks once for Larry Holmes

**Looks twice for Larry Holmes

**Decides not to vote in this stupid poll

Cheers, I missed him out when I re-ordered it all to put Jeffries in and maintain some kind of chronological order (such OCD traits help me keep the anxieties at bay).

This poll needs your vote, Dec, with or without Larry.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 06 Oct 2006, 04:52

Durability, stamina, power (in general, but he could punch hard too), speed, wrestling skills (I consider this aspect quite important for heavyweight division, and he's probably the very best all-time heavyweight at this), crouch stance (although leaves him open for jabs, but gives certain advantages too), clever boxing. He would fit superheavyweights epoch quite well, in my opinion. I see him beating the rest of the people from this list if he's given at least 15 rounds and not too-harsh rules for in-fighting.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Oct 2006, 04:57

Senya13 wrote:Durability, stamina, power (in general, but he could punch hard too), speed, wrestling skills (I consider this aspect quite important for heavyweight division, and he's probably the very best all-time heavyweight at this), crouch stance (although leaves him open for jabs, but gives certain advantages too), clever boxing. He would fit superheavyweights epoch quite well, in my opinion. I see him beating the rest of the people from this list if he's given at least 15 rounds and not too-harsh rules for in-fighting.

His durability, endurance and stamina would see him chop down today's crop any time after 6 rounds. Nice that he's ahving a bit of an interbnet renaissance.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 06 Oct 2006, 05:32

Larry Holmes is my no.3 HW of all time, behind Ali and Louis, so he'd be my pick as the best of the rest.
Jeffries isnt even top 10

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Oct 2006, 05:48

Terence wrote:Larry Holmes everyday of the week for me.

Liston would give anyone hell yet Holmes would be the one in this poll.

Too much for the other guys.

Holmes is my number 4. After Larry I think there's a bit of a drop off. I find number 5 the hardest for me to rank. My top 4 are Ali, Louis, Johnson, Holmes. Then I struggle and it moves between Dempsey, Frazier, Liston and occasionally Foreman.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 06 Oct 2006, 07:44

I've got Johnson 3rd and Holmes 4th. Hard to imagine why Holmes was left off this list.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Oct 2006, 09:09

The Great John L wrote:I've got Johnson 3rd and Holmes 4th. Hard to imagine why Holmes was left off this list.

Just a secretarial error, John.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Oct 2006, 12:43

Larry Holmes has 3 votes at the moment...

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 08 Oct 2006, 12:24

I've chosen Jack Johnson, but I would have liked to have seen Larry Holmes on the list.

MEISINGER · Post by **MEISINGER** » 08 Oct 2006, 13:37

larry holmes by a mile.

it is a shame that holmes gets no respect.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 08 Oct 2006, 19:30

Holmes easily

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 08 Oct 2006, 20:35

Holmes, Johnson, Liston come next on my list.

Nels · Post by **Nels** » 15 Oct 2006, 16:15

Larry Holmes.

Though I think he'd have to have* a superhuman night to beat a young Tyson or Lewis, or even a motivated Foreman, I think Larry could do it. He was a Hell of a pure boxer, but he was a fighter through and through. Relatively good speed, solid punch, decent D, clever, decent mobility, heart as big as Pennsylvania. And the jab...

Godhsarnit, I'm coming across like a fan. Just wanted to salute the legend & I end up spouting about the man.

*= N.B: There are too many verbs in this sentence. However, I am drunk and therefore eloquent sentence construction=whofuckingcares.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 18:46

Ezzard wrote:
Terence wrote:Larry Holmes everyday of the week for me.

Liston would give anyone hell yet Holmes would be the one in this poll.

Too much for the other guys.
Holmes is my number 4. After Larry I think there's a bit of a drop off. I find number 5 the hardest for me to rank. My top 4 are Ali, Louis, Johnson, Holmes. Then I struggle and it moves between Dempsey, Frazier, Liston and occasionally Foreman.

wheres marciano? he certainly accomplished more in his own era than dempsey did, and marcianos unique ackwardly effective style mixed with his power, punching skills ,stamina, strength, defense would suit him very well vs a wide variety of styles.

marciano is also one of the few heavyweight champions to beat the 3 best heavyweights of his era. not many can lay claim to this. Also all of marcianos title reign opponents were # 1 ranked(except # 2 ranked don cockell) and marciano proved dominance by giving rematches and dominating the rematches after close fights.

Sure jack dempsey looked incredibly dominant destroying the likes of willard, firpo, carpentier, morris, levinskey, gunboat smith etc but if marciano was fighting these big oafs, he would be just as dominating. notice how marciano looks incredible dominant vs harry kid mathews, a fighter equal to those guys most likely. try putting jack dempsey in vs charles, walcott, moore, louis.....he will look far less dominating.

dempsey missed out on fighting the 4 best heavyweights of his era harry wills, kid norfolk, godfrey, and harry greb and dempsey did not take on the best black contenders of his day like marciano did.

even in the late teens, dempsey never cleaned out his division pre title because he never took out the top black heavyweights. you can say he cleaned out the white hopes, but he didnt clean out the division because he wasnt taking on langford, wills, norfolk, jeanette, mcvea, johnson etc.

marciano also is the only undefeated heavyweight champion in history for a reason. Every other heavyweight champions have exuses for defeat. with marciano, there were no exuses. His record speaks for itself.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 18:51

Sonny Liston at # 3.

- larry holmes struggled vastly against the best opponents he beat. very close dead even fights with tim witherspoon and ken norton, NO REMATCHES GRANTED and a bit time struggle with mike weaver.

sonny liston was much more dominating than larry holmes and he cleaned out his division unlike holmes

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Oct 2006, 19:22

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Sonny Liston at # 3.

- larry holmes struggled vastly against the best opponents he beat. very close dead even fights with tim witherspoon and ken norton, NO REMATCHES GRANTED and a bit time struggle with mike weaver.

sonny liston was much more dominating than larry holmes and he cleaned out his division unlike holmes

Yes, he took Weaver lightly and had a titanic struggle with him. But like all great champs he came through. He feckin pole-axed hercules didn't he?

Norton lost to Shavers in an eliminator; that's why Shavers got a shot at Holmes. Ken's post Holmes fights pretty much eliminated him from contention.

Witherspoon is the one guy I'd like Holmes to have rematched. But like the other 'contenders' of that era he kept dropping matches at crucial times. After he beat Page he was right on track to fight Holmes. Then he dropped the title to Thomas.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 19:31

Collins2000 wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Sonny Liston at # 3.

- larry holmes struggled vastly against the best opponents he beat. very close dead even fights with tim witherspoon and ken norton, NO REMATCHES GRANTED and a bit time struggle with mike weaver.

sonny liston was much more dominating than larry holmes and he cleaned out his division unlike holmes
Yes, he took Weaver lightly and had a titanic struggle with him. But like all great champs he came through. He feckin pole-axed hercules didn't he?

Norton lost to Shavers in an eliminator; that's why Shavers got a shot at Holmes. Ken's post Holmes fights pretty much eliminated him from contention.

Witherspoon is the one guy I'd like Holmes to have rematched. But like the other 'contenders' of that era he kept dropping matches at crucial times. After he beat Page he was right on track to fight Holmes. Then he dropped the title to Thomas.

O in no way am i critisizing larry. mike weaver was an excellent fighter and larry holmes showed heart of a champ in that fight. norton and spoon were also excellent fighters who put on career preformances vs holmes.

however sonny liston faced men eddie machen, cleveland williams, floyd patterson, zora folley who IMO were at least equal to witherspoon, norton, weaver, shavers and liston dominated all of these guys without any trouble at all. liston beat these guys all in one sided fights. holmes was taken to the brink of defeat in controversial decisions by some of his best opponents. thats the difference between liston and holmes

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 19:38

larry holmes also ducked greg page in 1983. greg page won a WBC title eliminater vs renaldo snipes in 1983.....so holmes was obliged to defend his title vs mandatory # 1 WBC ranked greg page.....however holmes publicly said "I dont want to fight greg page" and gave up his WBC title rather than fight page, and instead took on a very inexperienced lightly regarded marvis frazier instead.

i have the holmes interview, ill post it later. holmes basically said he didnt want to fight page. he pulled a riddick bowe and gave up his WBC title rather than face page. holmes had to fight page, page WON THE ELIMINATER TO FIGHT HOLMES.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 15 Oct 2006, 21:10

I think if Ali and Louis never existed, the top HW champions would have been:

-Jack Johnson
-Rocky Marciano
-Larry Holmes
-Jim Jefferies

I rank Johnson at #1 because he fought the very best of his era, both black and white competitors, truly being THE best of his time.

Marciano at #2 because he went undefeated, over came a late start, crude skills and small size to defeat the very best of his era against men light years ahead of him in boxing ability. In the words of Teddy Atlas, 'He is over-rated because of being 49-0...under-rated because so many dismiss him for fighting older men.'

#3 is Larry Holmes because of his successful title defenses, albiet a majority was against mediocre opposition, was unbeaten in first 48 fights, for seven years proved that nobody was better.

#4 is Jim Jefferies who was the first of boxings big men, as he went undefeated, facing the best of his era and even when he came out of retirement to face Jack Johnson the public still believed Jefferies was the true champion and went 15 round with Johnson, the only loss of his career.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 22:43

Decagon wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:larry holmes also ducked greg page in 1983. greg page won a WBC title eliminater vs renaldo snipes in 1983.....so holmes was obliged to defend his title vs mandatory # 1 WBC ranked greg page.....however holmes publicly said "I dont want to fight greg page" and gave up his WBC title rather than fight page, and instead took on a very inexperienced lightly regarded marvis frazier instead.

i have the holmes interview, ill post it later. holmes basically said he didnt want to fight page. he pulled a riddick bowe and gave up his WBC title rather than face page. holmes had to fight page, page WON THE ELIMINATER TO FIGHT HOLMES.
Is that any worse than Joe Louis not fighting Turkey Thompson? Or Lewis John Ruiz? Or Marciano Floyd Patterson? Or Johnson Sam Langford? Or Tyson Holyfield, who was the #1 contender for two years? Or Dempsey Wills? Or Tunney Godfrey? Or Foreman Quarry?

Look in the career of any champion, in any era, in any weight class, and you'll probably find one or two fighters he missed. There aren't that many Muhammad Alis and Harry Grebs out there, you know...

how many other champions refused to fight a # 1 heavyweight contender who won a HW title eliminater?????

let me make an example........

moore # 1 contender, won a title eliminater, he got his shot at marciano.

what larry holmes did with greg page, is like marciano refusing to fight archie moore after moore won title eliminater vs valdez in 1955, and marciano relinguishing his title in 1955 rather than fight moore.

sounds bad huh? cause it is. holmes ducked page in 1983 and should be critisized for it.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 15 Oct 2006, 22:47

decagon. lee q murray is a guy who is horribly underated. he really went 3-2 vs jimmy bivins. i have a newspaper report on the first fight, a horrible decision which should have gone to murray. murray was rated incredibly high by contemporaries, beat very strong heavyweight opposition, and had the size, power, all around talent and skill of a very good heavyweight.

Murray rates in my top 50 heavyweights of all time, bivins doesnt. murray was a 6'0 210lb converted southpaw with dynamite KO power in both fists as well as good boxing skills, good speed, top durability,and brute strength. he had it all. ill post some newspaper articles on murray for you.

i think elmer ray and lee q murray were better heavies than jimmy bivins, but hey thats just my opinion on a era that i study alot.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 15 Oct 2006, 23:20

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Decagon wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:larry holmes also ducked greg page in 1983. greg page won a WBC title eliminater vs renaldo snipes in 1983.....so holmes was obliged to defend his title vs mandatory # 1 WBC ranked greg page.....however holmes publicly said "I dont want to fight greg page" and gave up his WBC title rather than fight page, and instead took on a very inexperienced lightly regarded marvis frazier instead.

i have the holmes interview, ill post it later. holmes basically said he didnt want to fight page. he pulled a riddick bowe and gave up his WBC title rather than face page. holmes had to fight page, page WON THE ELIMINATER TO FIGHT HOLMES.
Is that any worse than Joe Louis not fighting Turkey Thompson? Or Lewis John Ruiz? Or Marciano Floyd Patterson? Or Johnson Sam Langford? Or Tyson Holyfield, who was the #1 contender for two years? Or Dempsey Wills? Or Tunney Godfrey? Or Foreman Quarry?

Look in the career of any champion, in any era, in any weight class, and you'll probably find one or two fighters he missed. There aren't that many Muhammad Alis and Harry Grebs out there, you know...

how many other champions refused to fight a # 1 heavyweight contender who won a HW title eliminater?????
let me make an example........

moore # 1 contender, won a title eliminater, he got his shot at marciano.

what larry holmes did with greg page, is like marciano refusing to fight archie moore after moore won title eliminater vs valdez in 1955, and marciano relinguishing his title in 1955 rather than fight moore.

sounds bad huh? cause it is. holmes ducked page in 1983 and should be critisized for it.

Didn't Tyson pay Lewis millions in step-aside money when he was the top contender? You keep on about Holmes dodging Page yet nary a word about your boy Mike paying money so he wouldn't have to fight the top contender and then finally giving up the WBC title when that didn't quite work out as planned. Heck, didn't Lewis also give up some of his belts in order to take fights that he thought would make him better money than the men the ABC gang considered their top contenders. I haven't seen you banging on about this, Brocky.

Anyway, why don't you tell us why Holmes wasn't willing to meet Page at that point?

Are we supposed to think Holmes was scared of him or something?

You must have a pretty low opinion of Moore to compare him, even in a roundabout way, with Greg Page.

When I think of lazy, fat, poorly trained, poorly motivated, under-achieving heavies of the 1980's, the name Greg Page always springs to mind. Yet you keep hinting that he was good enough to beat an almost prime Holmes...

Without Ali and Louis

Rate these HWs

Without Ali and Louis