Oleksandr Usyk vs Ray Mercer

[gilgamesh]

Really? I have said many times that there have been many really good fighters in this century. Pacquaio, Mayweather, DLH, Crawford, GGG, Calzaghe, etc.
It the heavyweight division that has sucked for a long time. But must us talk about the heavyweight division about 90% of the time. It's always been that way.
There is a reason that long time boxing fans left in droves in the early 2000s. The heavyweight division sucked.

I know that sport didn't magically get better the day I became a fan. Many current fans have no interest in what came before them. Which is fine, not everyone is into history. As long as they don't just automatically say fighters in their time are better than those before their time if they aren't, which happens an awful lot.

But you won't say Usyk would beat Mercer even though it's pretty obvious he would.

[margaret thatcher]

Really? I have said many times that there have been many really good fighters in this century. Pacquaio, Mayweather, DLH, Crawford, GGG, Calzaghe, etc.
It the heavyweight division that has sucked for a long time. But must us talk about the heavyweight division about 90% of the time. It's always been that way.
There is a reason that long time boxing fans left in droves in the early 2000s. The heavyweight division sucked.

I know that sport didn't magically get better the day I became a fan. Many current fans have no interest in what came before them. Which is fine, not everyone is into history. As long as they don't just automatically say fighters in their time are better than those before their time if they aren't, which happens an awful lot.

you think james toney has a bigger cruiser legacy than usyk, you are just wack when it comes to him

[Ambling Alp II]

still bringing up that post, from what 8 years ago? At the time a lot of people agree with me. Then Usyk became a hw and became a better cruiserweight.
surprised that you have not brought up Cleveland Williams or Jack Johnson lately. You used to be obsessed with them.

[Ambling Alp II]

Really? I have said many times that there have been many really good fighters in this century. Pacquaio, Mayweather, DLH, Crawford, GGG, Calzaghe, etc.
It the heavyweight division that has sucked for a long time. But must us talk about the heavyweight division about 90% of the time. It's always been that way.
There is a reason that long time boxing fans left in droves in the early 2000s. The heavyweight division sucked.

I know that sport didn't magically get better the day I became a fan. Many current fans have no interest in what came before them. Which is fine, not everyone is into history. As long as they don't just automatically say fighters in their time are better than those before their time if they aren't, which happens an awful lot.

But you won't say Usyk would beat Mercer even though it's pretty obvious he would.

I am sayng that Mercer would have a chance. It was inconsistent. Watch the Lewis or Holyfield fights. If he fights that well, he would beat Usyk. If he fights like he did against Ferguson, no he wouldn't.

[gilgamesh]

Really? I have said many times that there have been many really good fighters in this century. Pacquaio, Mayweather, DLH, Crawford, GGG, Calzaghe, etc.
It the heavyweight division that has sucked for a long time. But must us talk about the heavyweight division about 90% of the time. It's always been that way.
There is a reason that long time boxing fans left in droves in the early 2000s. The heavyweight division sucked.

I know that sport didn't magically get better the day I became a fan. Many current fans have no interest in what came before them. Which is fine, not everyone is into history. As long as they don't just automatically say fighters in their time are better than those before their time if they aren't, which happens an awful lot.

But you won't say Usyk would beat Mercer even though it's pretty obvious he would.

I am sayng that Mercer would have a chance. It was inconsistent. Watch the Lewis or Holyfield fights. If he fights that well, he would beat Usyk. If he fights like he did against Ferguson, no he wouldn't.

He'd lose to Usyk no matter what he did I thibk he just wouldn't lose as badly if he was at his best.

[Cent0089]

But you won't say Usyk would beat Mercer even though it's pretty obvious he would.

I am sayng that Mercer would have a chance. It was inconsistent. Watch the Lewis or Holyfield fights. If he fights that well, he would beat Usyk. If he fights like he did against Ferguson, no he wouldn't.

He'd lose to Usyk no matter what he did I thibk he just wouldn't lose as badly if he was at his best.

He still cannot say that

[margaret thatcher]

still bringing up that post, from what 8 years ago? At the time a lot of people agree with me. Then Usyk became a hw and became a better cruiserweight.
surprised that you have not brought up Cleveland Williams or Jack Johnson lately. You used to be obsessed with them.

bruh hardly anyone agreed with you because it's a totally crazy position, toney beat a single top 15 cruiser. many posters other than myself have also said its ridiculous

just shows you refuse to give usyk credit and are totally biased against him for some reason, im not even a usyk fan but have to point out the obvious

now youre acting like its ridiculous simply to pick him over mercer, a guy who lost and drew with much worse fighters, come on man

[Ambling Alp II]

And that poll was taken when?

[Ambling Alp II]

But you won't say Usyk would beat Mercer even though it's pretty obvious he would.

I am sayng that Mercer would have a chance. It was inconsistent. Watch the Lewis or Holyfield fights. If he fights that well, he would beat Usyk. If he fights like he did against Ferguson, no he wouldn't.

He'd lose to Usyk no matter what he did I thibk he just wouldn't lose as badly if he was at his best.

This isn't Joshua or Fury or a kick boxer who gave Usyk a lot of trouble but Lennox Lewis here.
You seriously think the version of Ray Mercer who fought on more than even terms with a prime Lennox Lewis has no chance against Usyk?

[gilgamesh]

I am sayng that Mercer would have a chance. It was inconsistent. Watch the Lewis or Holyfield fights. If he fights that well, he would beat Usyk. If he fights like he did against Ferguson, no he wouldn't.

He'd lose to Usyk no matter what he did I thibk he just wouldn't lose as badly if he was at his best.

This isn't Joshua or Fury or a kick boxer who gave Usyk a lot of trouble but Lennox Lewis here.
You seriously think the version of Ray Mercer who fought on more than even terms with a prime Lennox Lewis has no chance against Usyk?

I wouldn't say he has "No chance" but I'd bet heavily on Usyk let's put it that way.

Mercer is a big, strong man so he certainly has a punchers chance.

[margaret thatcher]

And that poll was taken when?

before the one non existant one showing all these imaginary folk who rated toney's cruiser career over usyk's

the vote is 42-3 for a reason - toney beat 1 top 15 cruiser his whole career, never had any longevity at the top, never a single defense or unification, and didnt come close to matching let alone surpassing usyk's cruiser achievements. this was all true before usyk started campaigning as a heavy.

for you to rate toney's cruiser tenure higher than usyk's is just wild. stuff like this is why people think you cant be fair. every time people talk up usyk even a bit here or in boxing history you're all over in the threads getting pissy

[Cojimar 1946]

You forgot 42 yr old Larry Holmes and Jesse Ferguson.

And Usyk got an iffy decision against the Joshua and almost lost to a flippin kickboxer. Whcih is now being spun into an "achievement".

And a 42-year old Holmes was actually pretty good.

Mercer was very inconsistent. At his worst, he was bad, not denying that. But at his best he was really good. He gave Holyfield a very competitive fight when Holyfield was still a great fighter in a great fight. He should have got the decision against Lewis in a great fight as well.
People should watch those fights. Or the Morrison fight.

Most people feel the Lewis decision was fair. There is a much stronger argument for him losing to Witherspoon and Wilson than beating Lewis

[Ambling Alp II]

And that poll was taken when?

before the one non existant one showing all these imaginary folk who rated toney's cruiser career over usyk's

the vote is 42-3 for a reason - toney beat 1 top 15 cruiser his whole career, never had any longevity at the top, never a single defense or unification, and didnt come close to matching let alone surpassing usyk's cruiser achievements. this was all true before usyk started campaigning as a heavy.

for you to rate toney's cruiser tenure higher than usyk's is just wild. stuff like this is why people think you cant be fair. every time people talk up usyk even a bit here or in boxing history you're all over in the threads getting pissy

There was a thread several years ago about the top 10 best cruiserweights of all time. Most people had Holyfield #1. after that, people were all over the place in their ratings. People also had DeLeon, Qawi, maybe other as well at #2. At the time, I thought that Usyk needed to have more fights to make him a clear number 2. I certainly am not a huge Toney fan. It is pretty slim pickings with a division that wasn't even around until 1979, and most guys don't spend much time there before moving up to heavyweight where the real $ is. I thought a win in the 2nd best cruiserweight fight of all time had to count for something.

It was well after that when you started the poll; after Usyk had already beaten Fury.
Btw- I am glad that Usyk beat Fury. Before that people were constantly going on and on about that stupid "weight advantage" thing. You don't hear that much anymore after Fury lost to someone who weighed a lot less.

[Ambling Alp II]

You forgot 42 yr old Larry Holmes and Jesse Ferguson.

And Usyk got an iffy decision against the Joshua and almost lost to a flippin kickboxer. Whcih is now being spun into an "achievement".

And a 42-year old Holmes was actually pretty good.

Mercer was very inconsistent. At his worst, he was bad, not denying that. But at his best he was really good. He gave Holyfield a very competitive fight when Holyfield was still a great fighter in a great fight. He should have got the decision against Lewis in a great fight as well.
People should watch those fights. Or the Morrison fight.

Most people feel the Lewis decision was fair. There is a much stronger argument for him losing to Witherspoon and Wilson than beating Lewis

This fight always gets swept under the rung, but most people did not think it was fair at the time in real life. The crowd was booing like crazy after the decision was announced. People were talking about this for quite a while after it happened. (Boxing was still a big deal at the time). It was a great fight and Mercer deserves credit for it.

If (and it's a big if) he fought that well against Usyk, he would have beaten Usyk. You never knew what you were going to get with Mercer. At his best, he was a great fighter.

[Cent0089]

And Usyk got an iffy decision against the Joshua and almost lost to a flippin kickboxer. Whcih is now being spun into an "achievement".

And a 42-year old Holmes was actually pretty good.

Mercer was very inconsistent. At his worst, he was bad, not denying that. But at his best he was really good. He gave Holyfield a very competitive fight when Holyfield was still a great fighter in a great fight. He should have got the decision against Lewis in a great fight as well.
People should watch those fights. Or the Morrison fight.

Most people feel the Lewis decision was fair. There is a much stronger argument for him losing to Witherspoon and Wilson than beating Lewis

This fight always gets swept under the rung, but most people did not think it was fair at the time in real life. The crowd was booing like crazy after the decision was announced. People were talking about this for quite a while after it happened. (Boxing was still a big deal at the time). It was a great fight and Mercer deserves credit for it.

If (and it's a big if) he fought that well against Usyk, he would have beaten Usyk. You never knew what you were going to get with Mercer. At his best, he was a great fighter.

No, he would not. Usyk would beat cleanly any version of Mercer. I have just read that topic about Usyk vs Toney resume. You have wrote it after Joshua fight, that was 2 years after Usyk cleaned cruiser division. Writing about Toney have better CW resume than him is pure madness. You are just hater who cannot give credit to one of best HW of all time

[Ambling Alp II]

Don't have a problem with calling him one of the best cruiserweights of all time.
Not a hater; don't have anything against him personally.

Calling him one of the best heavyweights of all time is just absurd.
The guy has 9 heavyweight fights. Nine.
He has not exactly been dominant in the fights that he has had.
Couldn't stop either Joshua or Tyson. Had close decision wins.

The guy has stopped a grand total of 3 different heavyweights in his career. Three. One was the great Chazz Witherspoon. Another was against a kickboxer who was actually beating after 10 rounds.

[gilgamesh]

Don't have a problem with calling him one of the best cruiserweights of all time.
Not a hater; don't have anything against him personally.

Calling him one of the best heavyweights of all time is just absurd.
The guy has 9 heavyweight fights. Nine.
He has not exactly been dominant in the fights that he has had.
Couldn't stop either Joshua or Tyson. Had close decision wins.

The guy has stopped a grand total of 3 different heavyweights in his career. Three. One was the great Chazz Witherspoon. Another was against a kickboxer who was actually beating after 10 rounds.

Holyfield couldn't stop Riddick Bowe
Lennox Lewis couldn't stop Holyfield
Ezzard Charles couldn't stop Walcott
Frazier couldn't stop Ali
Ali couldn't stop Ken Norton

Nobody ever says that as an insult against those fighters, yet you constantly try to use the fact that he didn't stop Joshua or Fury as some kinda mark against Usyk instead of as the big wins over either Great or Very Good fighters that they are.

Clear decision wins over 2 of the best Heavyweights of your time in 4 separate fights is not a mark against you.

[Cojimar 1946]

And Usyk got an iffy decision against the Joshua and almost lost to a flippin kickboxer. Whcih is now being spun into an "achievement".

And a 42-year old Holmes was actually pretty good.

Mercer was very inconsistent. At his worst, he was bad, not denying that. But at his best he was really good. He gave Holyfield a very competitive fight when Holyfield was still a great fighter in a great fight. He should have got the decision against Lewis in a great fight as well.
People should watch those fights. Or the Morrison fight.

Most people feel the Lewis decision was fair. There is a much stronger argument for him losing to Witherspoon and Wilson than beating Lewis

This fight always gets swept under the rung, but most people did not think it was fair at the time in real life. The crowd was booing like crazy after the decision was announced. People were talking about this for quite a while after it happened. (Boxing was still a big deal at the time). It was a great fight and Mercer deserves credit for it.

If (and it's a big if) he fought that well against Usyk, he would have beaten Usyk. You never knew what you were going to get with Mercer. At his best, he was a great fighter.

That doesn't follow logically though. Lewis was kayoed by McCall and Rahman. That's never happened to Usyk. It would seem that in some respects Usyk is better than Lewis like say not getting kayoed by huge underdogs who are not considered big punchers.

[Cojimar 1946]

Don't have a problem with calling him one of the best cruiserweights of all time.
Not a hater; don't have anything against him personally.

Calling him one of the best heavyweights of all time is just absurd.
The guy has 9 heavyweight fights. Nine.
He has not exactly been dominant in the fights that he has had.
Couldn't stop either Joshua or Tyson. Had close decision wins.

The guy has stopped a grand total of 3 different heavyweights in his career. Three. One was the great Chazz Witherspoon. Another was against a kickboxer who was actually beating after 10 rounds.

Cruiserweights today are as big as many 90s heavyweights though. Some of the bigger ones like Riakporhe and Okolie are the size of Riddick Bowe

If Mercer was in decent shape he could easily fight at cruiserweight. So just imagine this fight happening at cruiserweight

[Cent0089]

He is just hater who cannot say Usyk would beat Mercer, and think Toney did more in cruiserweight than him let him be guys

[Ambling Alp II]

Don't have a problem with calling him one of the best cruiserweights of all time.
Not a hater; don't have anything against him personally.

Calling him one of the best heavyweights of all time is just absurd.
The guy has 9 heavyweight fights. Nine.
He has not exactly been dominant in the fights that he has had.
Couldn't stop either Joshua or Tyson. Had close decision wins.

The guy has stopped a grand total of 3 different heavyweights in his career. Three. One was the great Chazz Witherspoon. Another was against a kickboxer who was actually beating after 10 rounds.

Cruiserweights today are as big as many 90s heavyweights though. Some of the bigger ones like Riakporhe and Okolie are the size of Riddick Bowe

If Mercer was in decent shape he could easily fight at cruiserweight. So just imagine this fight happening at cruiserweight

No they are not. Stop saying that. It's nonsense. A guy doesn't naturally weight 240, get down to 200 for the weigh in, then get back to 240 by fight time. That is just BS.
We only have 9 fights to go on. Yes we can pretend that the cruiserweights that he fought were heavyweights. Are we going to do that Holyfield too? Have never heard anyone say his win over Qawi should count when rating him as a heavyweight. not once.

My point about him not stopping and having so much trouble is this?: Where is the truly great performance?
Joshua is nothing special and Usyk is not much better. Yet he can't dominate them? In 4 fights? And almost loses to a frikkin kickboxer? Come on.

Ali didn't win every fight easily. But he usually looked great close to his prime. Watch any of his fights from beating Liston to Folley. He was great in every single one of them.

Nobody is perfect. They have fights you can point to know they were great.
With Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, Louis, Holmes etc. you can point to great performances.

And let's not give him a free pass for the last fight. That's embarrassing. If that would have happened to some great fighter from long ago modern fans would have been harping on it constantly. Instead people are trying to spin this into an achievement.

[gilgamesh]

The reason why no Boxer from a long time ago ever had a tough fight with a Kickboxing Champion is because no Boxer from a long time ago ever fought a Kickboxing Champion. Usyk is the 1st and only Boxer to have ever faced such a challenge.

Tyson Fury is in my opinion a Top 20 All time Heavyweight Boxer easily, possibly Top 15, and Usyk beat him handily twice. Nobody else has to this date, but Usyk did 2x.

Anthony Joshua isn't quite as accomplished as that, but he's more accomplished than Ray Mercer.

Usyk isn't going to get into a slugfest with Mercer, he'd box him. Mercer has that long jab, and good body punching so he'd get his in, but Usyk with his upper body movement, and general strategy is going to get in more shots, more often. We've never really seen Usyk hurt or knocked down so there's not any reason to think Mercer would surely hurt him, though of course in Heavyweight boxing it's never out of the question.

Usyk has more variety to his attack. Better timing, better handspeed, from all we've seen an equally good chin, better defense, better movement.

The only thing Mercer has on him is probably punching power. Sometimes that alone wins it for you. Usually it doesn't.

[Cojimar 1946]

Don't have a problem with calling him one of the best cruiserweights of all time.
Not a hater; don't have anything against him personally.

Calling him one of the best heavyweights of all time is just absurd.
The guy has 9 heavyweight fights. Nine.
He has not exactly been dominant in the fights that he has had.
Couldn't stop either Joshua or Tyson. Had close decision wins.

The guy has stopped a grand total of 3 different heavyweights in his career. Three. One was the great Chazz Witherspoon. Another was against a kickboxer who was actually beating after 10 rounds.

Cruiserweights today are as big as many 90s heavyweights though. Some of the bigger ones like Riakporhe and Okolie are the size of Riddick Bowe

If Mercer was in decent shape he could easily fight at cruiserweight. So just imagine this fight happening at cruiserweight

No they are not. Stop saying that. It's nonsense. A guy doesn't naturally weight 240, get down to 200 for the weigh in, then get back to 240 by fight time. That is just BS.
We only have 9 fights to go on. Yes we can pretend that the cruiserweights that he fought were heavyweights. Are we going to do that Holyfield too? Have never heard anyone say his win over Qawi should count when rating him as a heavyweight. not once.

My point about him not stopping and having so much trouble is this?: Where is the truly great performance?
Joshua is nothing special and Usyk is not much better. Yet he can't dominate them? In 4 fights? And almost loses to a frikkin kickboxer? Come on.

Ali didn't win every fight easily. But he usually looked great close to his prime. Watch any of his fights from beating Liston to Folley. He was great in every single one of them.

Nobody is perfect. They have fights you can point to know they were great.
With Tyson, Bowe, Lewis, Louis, Holmes etc. you can point to great performances.

And let's not give him a free pass for the last fight. That's embarrassing. If that would have happened to some great fighter from long ago modern fans would have been harping on it constantly. Instead people are trying to spin this into an achievement.

Mercer was naturally 215 or so not 240 so yes he could fight at cruiserweight quite easily

Usyk has been past his prime for much of his time at heavyweight so that's going to effect his performances but I would say he looked good in the Joshua rematch where he appeared to win decisively and threw 700 plus punches

[gilgamesh]

Mercer's a Heavyweight. Why are we talking about whether or not he'd fight at Cruiserweight? Who gives a sh*t?

The point is he wouldn't beat Usyk because Usyk is better than him. The size is not going to be a significant factor.

[Cojimar 1946]

Mercer's a Heavyweight. Why are we talking about whether or not he'd fight at Cruiserweight? Who gives a sh*t?

The point is he wouldn't beat Usyk because Usyk is better than him. The size is not going to be a significant factor.

Cruiserweight Usyk had a much better work rate. So I prefer using him in most matchups