Who won? Hagler or Leonard?

Neo · Post by **Neo** » 06 Oct 2006, 08:38

silkov wrote:It was a close fight but the fact is Leonard outboxed a very sluggish and ringworn looking Hagler... many people forget that Leonard won just about all the first 6 rounds and then had the better finish... at the end of the day it was never the robbery that manay have cliamed and really Hagler only has himself and his management to blame for all the concessions they made to Ray in order to get the fight....

To certain extent, he let his disdain of Leonard take the better of him. He truly belived that he would walk through Ray and mess his "pretty face".

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Oct 2006, 09:08

I think that Hagler wanted to out box leonard to prove a point. If he walked through him he would have ebaten an old Leonard.

I thought Ray won a close decision but not have no problem with people seeing it the other way.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 06 Oct 2006, 09:50

Hagler was a plodding slower than molasses southpaw, who took his only advantage and chance he had...his goofy ass slapsy patsy south paw stance, and gave it away by fighting like a man (right handed) the first 4 rounds. Leonard took full advantage of the slower stupid over rated Hagler and gave him a boxing lesson in quickness and foot work...HAGLER WAS EXPOSED FOR THE CHUMP HE WAS!!!

A rematch would have been worse because Leonard had Hagler figured out. Hagler was one dimensional. Leonard would have made him look more ridiculous a 2nd time around......

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 06 Oct 2006, 09:56

I thought Leonard won fair and square. "Harder" punches that don't do damage aren't "better" than light punches, and Leonard scored both more often and more accurately. A master performance by SRL.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 06 Oct 2006, 10:01

Most memorable thing about the fight for me, was how my best friend (who hated Leonard) told me that only Hollywood celebrities wanted Leonard to win, and real boxing fans were for Hagler. When the fighters were announced, around two thirds of the crowd at Caesar's Palace were very vocally supporting Hagler, by the end of the 4th round, about a third of them had gone over to cheering for Leonard, because he was doing what few believed was possible. Personally I'll never understand how anyone could think Hagler won, Leonard swept the first 4 rounds easily, and after that Hagler would have needed 6 of the last 8 just to gain a draw. As I've said before, Jose Guerra's having Leonard ahead by 8 was way out, but Dave Moretti having Hagler up by 2 was pretty silly as well.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 06 Oct 2006, 12:55

I had hagler winning, just. But I can see and respect why some have Ray Leonard winning.

However

Jose Guerra 118-110 (Leonard)

No way.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 06 Oct 2006, 12:59

Bottom line is, Hagler started much too slow and allowed Leonard to steal too many rounds - you can't just give away the first 4 or 5 rounds and expect to win a decision. I've heard someone describe it nicely as "Hagler fought a 15-round pace in a 12-round fight." Unfortunately for the Hagler fans (including me) it's not who lands the better shots, it's who wins the most rounds.

I don't begrudge SRL his win, but I disrespect him for not giving a rematch.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 06 Oct 2006, 13:25

I pretty much agree with Seamus and others who think Hagler got too far behind and that Leonard won.
Hagler did almost nothing in the first 4 rounds. You don't deserve to win rounds simply by standing around looking tough.
If you just score each round individually (like a judge does) and objectively (like a judge is supposed to) there is no way that Hagler won more than 5 rounds.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 06 Oct 2006, 13:26

I think I had it Leonard 116-112

Thats not THAT close, but definitely not a landslide.

I thought it was a fairly easy fight to score.

thunderfromdownunder · Post by **thunderfromdownunder** » 08 Oct 2006, 06:03

ive scored this fight multiple times, the first time i scored it 117-111 for SRL, then i took some advise from people here and scored it with no sound, still had SRL winning, alot closer though 115-113. hagler fucked up by chossing to fight othordox for those first two rounds

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 08 Oct 2006, 08:09

Slapsie Maxie wrote:Very Very close

At the time, I gave it to SRL. However, on a recent re-watch, I have to say, Hagler won it. He threw the better punches while SRL caught the judges' eye with the flurrys of punches at the end of each round

Hagler's ability to walk away from the sport makes him a real great in my eyes

Slapsie

Good call about Hagler walking away.

I wish more fighters would take his lead.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 08 Oct 2006, 08:12

Eric the Viking wrote:Bottom line is, Hagler started much too slow and allowed Leonard to steal too many rounds - you can't just give away the first 4 or 5 rounds and expect to win a decision. I've heard someone describe it nicely as "Hagler fought a 15-round pace in a 12-round fight." Unfortunately for the Hagler fans (including me) it's not who lands the better shots, it's who wins the most rounds.

I don't begrudge SRL his win, but I disrespect him for not giving a rematch.

Absolutely spot on.

Hagler's arrogance cost him that fight.

He seemed more interested in insulting Ray, proving that he couldn't be outboxed & needlessly switching between orthodox & southpaw.

It might have been OK to do that in 1981, but by 1987, he was slower than than an Arthritic tortoise!

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Oct 2006, 12:54

Very interesting....a few years ago this poll had a different outcome...with the new voters the poll has shifted to leonard.

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 08 Oct 2006, 13:34

Haglers loss to leonard was considered (by knockers) in the same light as Holmes's loss to Spinks , ie that true greatness will never quite be attributed to them.....

tru fans knew different ...

both Holmes and Hagler were warriors who graced the 80's and helped make it the golden era of boxing...

Evander · Post by **Evander** » 09 Oct 2006, 11:55

I had it for Ray Leonard.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 09 Oct 2006, 12:21

Definitely had it 116-112 for Leonard

Leonard rounds 1,2,3,4,6,7,10,11
Hagler rounds 5,8,9,12

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 09 Oct 2006, 12:37

BoxBuzz wrote:Very interesting....a few years ago this poll had a different outcome...with the new voters the poll has shifted to leonard.

I think it will be one of those debates that go on and on with fluxuating views.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 09 Oct 2006, 12:44

Syntax Error wrote:Hagler's arrogance cost him that fight.

I didn't see it as arrogance on Haglers part to be honest, just poor choice of tactics. As great a fighter as Hagler was he did from time to time make tactical mistakes such as with Duran when he tried to counterpunch the master counterpuncher.

I sometimes think this may have been due to Hagler feeling undervalued as a Champion and always feeling he had something to prove and so therefore, sometimes he tried to beat the fighter in front of him at their own game, which to a greater or lesser degree backfired on him sometimes.

Andy Mac · Post by **Andy Mac** » 09 Oct 2006, 12:56

In all honesty I think there is a case for either winning. My only question would be about the judges decisions based on events. For instance do we know that the judges that were obviously impressed by with SRL's flurries of pitty pat arm punches, were consistent in all fights they judged, or only when Leonard used that tactic?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 09 Oct 2006, 13:27

I had it as a legit win for Leonard myself.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 09 Oct 2006, 15:37

Decagon wrote:
Andy Mac wrote:In all honesty I think there is a case for either winning. My only question would be about the judges decisions based on events. For instance do we know that the judges that were obviously impressed by with SRL's flurries of pitty pat arm punches, were consistent in all fights they judged, or only when Leonard used that tactic?
Leonard stopped a number of people with those "pitty pat arm punches." Leonard wasn't the type of fighter who threw punches just to score. He threw them to hurt, either by the punches themselves, or by using the flurries to create openings for bigger shots.

Yes, but in the fight vs Hagler, they were nothing but scoring punches. Sugar danced from after the 4th until the last thrity in every round and let off some combos that landed on forearms and elbows. The crowd was insanely pro-Leonard that they went nuts for everything he did. The fact that they were counted as scoring punches was totally BS.

I don't care what side of the fence you stand on, 118-110 is definitely someone watching a different fight than everyone else saw. Definitely a plant.

I've watched this fight probably 50 times in my life, and the way I've scored it is 1-4 and 6 for Leonard, 5 7-12 for Hagler.

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 09 Oct 2006, 16:28

funso banjo baby wrote:Haglers loss to leonard was considered (by knockers) in the same light as Holmes's loss to Spinks

You said "knockers."

Andy Mac · Post by **Andy Mac** » 09 Oct 2006, 16:28

Decagon wrote:
Andy Mac wrote:In all honesty I think there is a case for either winning. My only question would be about the judges decisions based on events. For instance do we know that the judges that were obviously impressed by with SRL's flurries of pitty pat arm punches, were consistent in all fights they judged, or only when Leonard used that tactic?
Leonard stopped a number of people with those "pitty pat arm punches." Leonard wasn't the type of fighter who threw punches just to score. He threw them to hurt, either by the punches themselves, or by using the flurries to create openings for bigger shots.

I have seen many of Leonards fight, not least just moments ago when as an intro to the contender finale they showed him stopping Tommy Hearns 25 yrs ago. At no time in the Hagler fight did he throw punches with the same force or intention.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 10 Oct 2006, 07:02

No doubt that Leonard was gone at the end. I didn't think he'd make it out of the 12th. Hagler was in control at the end and looked to be walking him down. He ran out of time. Hagler should have insisted on 15 but if my memory serves me correctly wasn't the Mugabi fight scheduled for 12 too???

For a fight that has been talked about endlessly terence has brought an interesting and fresh view on Marvin's performance.

However you score the fight I still think it was ana chievement for Leonard to go the ditance with Hagler.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 10 Oct 2006, 07:06

Decagon wrote:118-110 was a bad scorecard, but the right guy won, and that's all that matters.

Agreed.

That judge was a joke.

I don't know how he scored it that wide for Sugar.

Sugar won IMO, but only just.