ARTHUR ABRAHAM is NOT German - He is ARMENIAN

probert24 · Post by **probert24** » 03 Oct 2006, 09:14

I kind of agree with the thread strater here. If AA is German then you have to make Maskeav America. The last thing Oleg is is a Kazak.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 03 Oct 2006, 10:39

There needs to be a set of criteria to determine a fighter's nationality.

probert24 · Post by **probert24** » 03 Oct 2006, 11:43

Like Luan Krasniqi - I can see him being German cause he was basically raised there. But just because a guy has a piece of paper saying he's German doesn't make him German.

slapbangwhallop · Post by **slapbangwhallop** » 03 Oct 2006, 15:31

JCS83MD wrote:There needs to be a set of criteria to determine a fighter's nationality.

well said, I agree

VanesBoxing · Post by **VanesBoxing** » 05 Oct 2006, 02:56

germanbee wrote:We understand that you have strong feelings for your country. However, nationality is part of a lot of information we give about a fighter and it is not a key information.

I don't mean to insult you, but let's get your facts right:

“This is coming from his Team and his official website. ... Al NAZARYAN”
In a phone call with our fellow German editor today, Arthur Abraham states that he doesn't know any Al Nazaryan. So what name exactly is he supposed to know you under?
Abraham then goes on to say he wants to be listed as German in BoxRec. Not that that would have ever influenced our decisions, but it contradicts the base of your argument.

“has his dual citizenship with Armenia”
This is generally not possible under German law. When you were faced with that fact, you go on to change your argument:
“either way, Citizenship is NOT what decides your nationality ... it is your nationality that really counts, because that is whats in your heart, not what is printed on paper ... BUT, the question here is if you saw any of these fighters, on the street and asked them”
Shall we ask every fighter now what he wants to be and go from there? How objective would that be? Anybody could tell us anything.

He was born in “Armenia, Yerevan and lived there pretty much his entire life, including his amateur years. 23 years or so to be exact”
No. At the latest in 1997 he was boxing in Germany and won the 1997 German International Championship title. By the way, this information comes from his official website, which you claim to be part of.

“Funny thing is, a few months ago, I made this same request, and it was honored as Abraham's nationality went back to Armenian from German.”
A few months ago, the process of becoming German hadn't ended. As soon as it had and to avoid further changes, Abraham's team made the effort of faxing BoxRec the official document.

“Also, his younger brother - Alex Abraham, is also a pro boxer that started his pro career in Germany just like Arthur, yet Alex is still listed as Armenian”
Fact is he isn't German nor Armenian-German, he is Armenian with an Armenian passport. He has been boxing in Germany since 1995, but that is as far as it goes.

Let's not get into your abuse. You just don't have an argument going for you, so lets end here. You don't need an answer from John, you need to stop pushing your national issues into an international database. I wish you well.

ok, i may be off on a few details here and there BUT i know one thing for sure.

I design both Vic Darchinyans offical website - http://www.VicDarchinyan.com and Vanes Martirosyan's official website - http://www.VanesBoxing.com

aside from Arthur Abraham, these two are the next big Armenian names in boxing and they both know AA very well.

Vic Darchinyan grew up with AA boxing in Armenia.

He speaks to him regulary, and says himself the last thing Arthur would do is admit he is German over Armenian.

Petu v.d. Pajm · Post by **Petu v.d. Pajm** » 09 Oct 2006, 09:21

Based on their own web-site : Abrahamyan brothers did re-locate to Germany when Arthur was about 16 and Alex 14 years of age. Thus BOTH of them should be regarded as Germans based on "where you learned to fight"-argument.

I think it has been a long decided consensus that passport is NOT a nationality-defining issue. However, Abrahams did participate in German amateur championships even on junior-level and that would IMO make them obviously Armenian-born Germans.

Absolutely, no logic in having Arthur German and Alex Armenian. No logic at all...

Pantera · Post by **Pantera** » 09 Oct 2006, 13:06

I agree, he should be German.
He changed his name to sound German, he got a German passport and he has been boxing for 10+ years for Germany.

I'm sick of these crazy Armenians trying to claim everything. Abraham does not want to fight for Armenia, so let it go already. He is German whether you like it or not!

emile · Post by **emile** » 09 Oct 2006, 13:10

Petu v.d. Pajm wrote: Absolutely, no logic in having Arthur German and Alex Armenian. No logic at all...

The logic is that Arthur has German citizenship and Alex doesn't. While the policy does not require that a fighter be listed under the country where they currently hold citizenship, it would be odd to list a fighter under a country where they have never held citizenship.

I think germanbee has pretty definitively closed the case on this one.

Petu v.d. Pajm · Post by **Petu v.d. Pajm** » 09 Oct 2006, 15:58

[quote="emile"][quote="Petu v.d. Pajm"]
Absolutely, no logic in having Arthur German and Alex Armenian. No logic at all...[/quote]

The logic is that Arthur has German citizenship and Alex doesn't. While the policy does not require that a fighter be listed under the country where they currently hold citizenship, it would be odd to list a fighter under a country where they have never held citizenship.

I think germanbee has pretty definitively closed the case on this one.[/quote]

I don't agree at all, emile. Alex has been younger than Arthur when move to Germany has occurred thus he is MORE of a product of German boxing school than Arthur. And the deciding factor has always been "where have you learned to box", not "which passport you happen to carry".

You think it would be odd to have Alexander Abraham as German when he has never had German passport? Well, then it must be very odd to have f ex Albert Starikov and Leonti Voronchuk down as Estonians when they have never had an Estonian passport, right? Gimme an answer under which country they should be listed then, please? I can help you by telling that they still have an old ex-Soviet Union passport as they are not able to get Estonian citizenship due failing the language exam. They are Estonian residents WITHOUT a citizenship in ANY existing nation and thus a glaring example (not a sole example) how you can not draw a line based on passport.

The "solution" presented by germanbee is once again a solution for only one specific situation concerning two specific fighters and would indeed go against any clear-cut universal rule. Instead we should finally be able to make a decision how to determine one's nationality according one single universal rule.

Additionally, it is NOT true that German does not allow dual citizenships. Finnish national athletic team includes a middle-distance runner Jonas Hamm and long jumper Niklas Rorarius who both have a dual citizenship of Germany and Finland. If I started to really research this issue, I would surely come up with scores of additional examples. It is POSSIBLE that Arthur Abraham has dropped his Armenian citizenship upon receiving German citizenship. Possible, but not proven. Even if he did, it would have been due either his own will or due Armenian law not allowing double citizenship. Germany most definitely allows a dual citizenship and people saying otherwise in this thread are either mistaken or lying.

computerrank · Post by **computerrank** » 09 Oct 2006, 16:08

Sorry Petu, it is definitely not legal to have a multiple citizenship including the German one. As soon as this is indicated to the authorities, they will be forced by law to withdraw the German citizenship for this person, if this person is no German by birth.

Petu v.d. Pajm · Post by **Petu v.d. Pajm** » 09 Oct 2006, 17:04

So it is possible to have a dual citizenship if you are German by birth ie.from multi-national marriage, but not otherwise? If so, I stand partly corrected.

Petu v.d. Pajm · Post by **Petu v.d. Pajm** » 09 Oct 2006, 17:08

Wikimedia says :

Although dual citizenship is restricted under German law, it can be held in limited circumstances:

* where a child born to German parents acquires another citizenship at birth (e.g based on place of birth, or descent from one parent)
* where a German citizen acquires a foreign nationality with the permission of the German government
* where a naturalised German citizen, or a child born to non-German parents in Germany, obtains permission to keep their foreign nationality

slapbangwhallop · Post by **slapbangwhallop** » 10 Oct 2006, 10:06

The problem here is how Boxrec designates nationality - this is an issue that is continually avoided by Boxrec -

Is it based on:-

The country the boxer was born in?

The country their parents were born in or ethnicity?

Were they grew up and went to school?

Where they first started to box?

Where they trained to box?

What country/countries national tournaments did they fight for as an amateur?

What country/countries national title did they hold as an amateur?

What country/countries did they represent as an amateur?

What country they first fought as a professional?

What country they currently fight in as a professional?

Where they won their fight professional title?

Where they live?

What country/countries national title did they fight for as a professional?

What they themselves consider their nationality?

What about when the legal status of the country they were born in is altered? (e.g. split of USSR, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia - altering of legal status of Hong Kong, Northern Ireland - counties who name/borders change)

What passport/passports do they hold?

What is their citizenship?

What flag/flags they carry into the ring?

What about when they alter their citizenship to progress their career?

BOXREC - which one of these or which combination of these is it that is considered when assessing nationality??? An answer to this would then end all these arguments!

(p.s. if you can think of any other criteria that Boxrec could consider please feel free to add - maybe this should be a thread on it own!?!)

Petu v.d. Pajm · Post by **Petu v.d. Pajm** » 10 Oct 2006, 11:09

One option MIGHT be having two nationalities available for a fighter. One based on original country, another for residential country. This would be highly appropriate also for the fact that several fighters are qualified to challenge for more than one regional title. F ex African fighters re-located in Europe or USA or Australia have simultaneously been qualified to fight both for European/NABF/USBA/OPBF and All-African titles.

Current one nationality set-up doesn't properly present this fact. IMO, Sakio Bika should be listed as Cameroonian 1st and foremost as he represented that country (his home country) even in Olympic level. However, only by listing him ALSO as Australian can he be seen as a qualified challenger/champion for OPBF or Australian title.

So, WHATEVER line we draw on nationality issue, it is always lacking something. Yes, we have "residence" also shown, BUT that does not show up when you take a national/regional ranking or listing of fighters.

So if it ain't too difficult coding, I would definitely propose "double-flagging" fighters fighting out of any other country than one of their origins. Thus Arthur Abraham would at this time be Armenian/German with two flags. BUT if he would later re-locate to say UK, German flag would drop out and he would be Armenian/British instead.

VanesBoxing · Post by **VanesBoxing** » 11 Oct 2006, 01:18

Pantera wrote:I agree, he should be German.
He changed his name to sound German, he got a German passport and he has been boxing for 10+ years for Germany.

I'm sick of these crazy Armenians trying to claim everything. Abraham does not want to fight for Armenia, so let it go already. He is German whether you like it or not!

your the crazy one you son of a bitch. Dont talk that way about Armenians.

I know your still bitter cuz ur sorry ass dirty fighting Miranda got his ass beat by the ARMENIAN KING ARTHUR, but dont come here and talk shit about Armenians you asshole.

If you werent so fukin blind, you would have seen that the ONLY flag in the whole arena waving high when Arthur was beating the shit out of Miranda with a broken chin was RED-BLUE-ORANGE. You know what flag that is???? YA, THE ARMENIAN FLAG.

slapbangwhallop · Post by **slapbangwhallop** » 11 Oct 2006, 07:47

VanesBoxing wrote:
Pantera wrote:I agree, he should be German.
He changed his name to sound German, he got a German passport and he has been boxing for 10+ years for Germany.

I'm sick of these crazy Armenians trying to claim everything. Abraham does not want to fight for Armenia, so let it go already. He is German whether you like it or not!
your the crazy one you son of a bitch. Dont talk that way about Armenians.

I know your still bitter cuz ur sorry ass dirty fighting Miranda got his ass beat by the ARMENIAN KING ARTHUR, but dont come here and talk shit about Armenians you asshole.

If you werent so fukin blind, you would have seen that the ONLY flag in the whole arena waving high when Arthur was beating the shit out of Miranda with a broken chin was RED-BLUE-ORANGE. You know what flag that is???? YA, THE ARMENIAN FLAG.

jesus!! and I thought I had passion!!

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 11 Oct 2006, 15:52

After re-considering..

I suppose Abraham should be classified as German.

Although he is of Armenian descent (which is clear from his name, and birthplace), he now claims Germany as his homeland.. and says he grew up there, fights for Germany yada yada.

So he is of Armenian descent, but claims a German nationality (as of now)

slapbangwhallop · Post by **slapbangwhallop** » 12 Oct 2006, 07:50

JCS83MD wrote:I suppose Abraham should be classified as German.

Although he is of Armenian descent (which is clear from his name, and birthplace), he now claims Germany as his homeland.. and says he grew up there, fights for Germany yada yada.

So he is of Armenian descent, but claims a German nationality (as of now)

My opinion is that he changed his citizenship to progress his career and to allow permanent residence in Germany/EU. A move of this sort this does not affect your nationality. I therefore believe he should be listed as Armenian.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 12 Oct 2006, 09:02

sligobhoy67 wrote:
JCS83MD wrote:I suppose Abraham should be classified as German.

Although he is of Armenian descent (which is clear from his name, and birthplace), he now claims Germany as his homeland.. and says he grew up there, fights for Germany yada yada.

So he is of Armenian descent, but claims a German nationality (as of now)
My opinion is that he changed his citizenship to progress his career and to allow permanent residence in Germany/EU. A move of this sort this does not affect your nationality. I therefore believe he should be listed as Armenian.

Definitions on the word "nationality" differ depending on where you look.

Webster's states

1. The quality of being national, or strongly attached to
one's own nation; patriotism.

I believe that country is now Germany.. for Arthur Abraham

I will not argue his lineage and country of origin is Armenian.

VanesBoxing · Post by **VanesBoxing** » 12 Oct 2006, 17:05

JCS83MD wrote: My opinion is that he changed his citizenship to progress his career and to allow permanent residence in Germany/EU. A move of this sort this does not affect your nationality. I therefore believe he should be listed as Armenian.

I agree.

He is Armenian German, not German Armenian

Pantera · Post by **Pantera** » 13 Oct 2006, 02:15

Let's put it this way.... if you keep it German, Vanes with his short temper (seems to be an Armenian trait) will hunt you down!

Vanes, SHUT THE F**K UP!
Your boy took a German passport, moved there and changed his name. Your country had NOTHING to offer him so he left and became German. Let it be already and find somthing good from your country that you can follow and claim!

VanesBoxing · Post by **VanesBoxing** » 13 Oct 2006, 03:15

Pantera wrote:Let's put it this way.... if you keep it German, Vanes with his short temper (seems to be an Armenian trait) will hunt you down!

Vanes, SHUT THE F**K UP!
Your boy took a German passport, moved there and changed his name. Your country had NOTHING to offer him so he left and became German. Let it be already and find somthing good from your country that you can follow and claim!

you are one bigggg idiot man. A waste of my time.

Im just happy that every night you go to sleep and know that Miranda is a piece of crap that couldnt finish off a fighter with a broken jaw for 8 rounds. Seriously, how good could he be?? lol He is gonna get schooled in the rematch.

and you know ARTHUR ABRAHAM is Armenian, I dont know why you keep fighting it, has nothin to do with your dumb ass.

barry · Post by **barry** » 13 Oct 2006, 05:44

Vanes---Below, in the thread that Pantera started, is the problem Pantera has with Abraham.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50985

He's still trying to get over the fact that Abraham, with a serious broken jaw, still beat the shit out of Pantera's favorite fighter Edison Miranda!!!

That's his problem, but if he continues to talk racist bullshit about a persons ethnicity then he'll be banned from the site altogether!!!!

Post by **Marina** » 13 Oct 2006, 07:05

The nationality of this particular boxer on BoxRec has been discussed amply.
While the issue of nationality for all boxers seems to be hugely important to some of you, it is not an essential part of the data base.
Your insults, threats and foul language are not tolerated. This thread is now officially closed.

ARTHUR ABRAHAM is NOT German - He is ARMENIAN

re

thread closed