Mike tyson vs riddick bowe 1991?

[gilgamesh]

When a lineal champion permanently retires a new lineage has to be created.
This is done when the current #1 and #2 in line fight each other.

Key word PERMANENTLY

[Ambling Alp II]

When a lineal champion permanently retires a new lineage has to be created.
This is done when the current #1 and #2 in line fight each other.

Yep.
I don't think anyone said anything that goes against that.
You can get into gray areas. Like who determines who is #1 and #2?

If Ali never comes back after beating Spinks, is Larry Holmes a lineal champion?

You have situations like Marvin Hart and Tommy Burns. They are considered lineal champions. Was Hart beating Jake Root really a case of #1 vs #2?

Also thought I would mention that Rocky Marciano retired as lineal champion and never came back. Apparently not everyone knew that.

[gilgamesh]

When a lineal champion permanently retires a new lineage has to be created.
This is done when the current #1 and #2 in line fight each other.

Yep.
I don't think anyone said anything that goes against that.
You can get into gray areas. Like who determines who is #1 and #2?

If Ali never comes back after beating Spinks, is Larry Holmes a lineal champion?

You have situations like Marvin Hart and Tommy Burns. They are considered lineal champions. Was Hart beating Jake Root really a case of #1 vs #2?

Also thought I would mention that Rocky Marciano retired as lineal champion and never came back. Apparently not everyone knew that.

How could I forget about The Rock? Yes indeed he's another who retired as Lineal Champion

A Tournament took place after his retirement to crown a new Champion, and Floyd Patterson won it. I wish they would always do that when a Champion retires. Tournament of the Top contenders to determine the new King of the Division.

[SteveO]

A Tournament took place after his retirement to crown a new Champion, and Floyd Patterson won it. I wish they would always do that when a Champion retires. Tournament of the Top contenders to determine the new King of the Division.

That's a great idea. It would settle any arguments about who is #1 and who is #2

[Cojimar 1946]

That's the only way you can claim lineage actually. By beating the man that beat the man. That's the definition of lineage.

You claim lineage by beating the champ or unifying. Holmes did neither.

Ali was no longer champ when he lost to Holmes.

[gilgamesh]

That's the only way you can claim lineage actually. By beating the man that beat the man. That's the definition of lineage.

You claim lineage by beating the champ or unifying. Holmes did neither.

Ali was no longer champ when he lost to Holmes.

Look if you don't understand what lineage means that's on you.

Ali won the title back in his rematch with Spinks. He was never beaten for that title. He lost when he came back and failed against Holmes.

Lineal Championships CAN ONLY BE won or lost IN THE RING. You can't give it up. You can't be stripped of it. You can't lose it any way except for somebody to kick your ass and take it from you.

Similarly in Ali's first reign as Champion when he was Stripped of his title for refusing induction into the U.S. Military. I don't recognize that loss of his title either. As far as I'm concerned his fights with Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena in 1970 were successful title defenses of his Heavyweight Championship which he had never been beaten for at that time.

[Cojimar 1946]

That's the only way you can claim lineage actually. By beating the man that beat the man. That's the definition of lineage.

You claim lineage by beating the champ or unifying. Holmes did neither.

Ali was no longer champ when he lost to Holmes.

Look if you don't understand what lineage means that's on you.

Ali won the title back in his rematch with Spinks. He was never beaten for that title. He lost when he came back and failed against Holmes.

Lineal Championships CAN ONLY BE won or lost IN THE RING. You can't give it up. You can't be stripped of it. You can't lose it any way except for somebody to kick your ass and take it from you.

Similarly in Ali's first reign as Champion when he was Stripped of his title for refusing induction into the U.S. Military. I don't recognize that loss of his title either. As far as I'm concerned his fights with Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena in 1970 were successful title defenses of his Heavyweight Championship which he had never been beaten for at that time.

He lost his claim when he retired. Nobody recognized Ali as champ at that point.

If Lennox Lewis came out of retirement nobody would recognize him as champ either

[gilgamesh]

Right. Well like I said if you don't understand what lineage means then that's on you brother. I'm not gonna keep explaining it to you.

[Cojimar 1946]

Right. Well like I said if you don't understand what lineage means then that's on you brother. I'm not gonna keep explaining it to you.

Maybe lineage doesn't matter. If you can claim lineage by beating a guy outside the top 10 who is suffering from parkinsons that's not a good look for lineage.

If you can only lose your title in the ring that would mean Lewis could come out of retirement tomorrow and lose to a journeyman which would give them lineage

[gilgamesh]

Right. Well like I said if you don't understand what lineage means then that's on you brother. I'm not gonna keep explaining it to you.

Maybe lineage doesn't matter. If you can claim lineage by beating a guy outside the top 10 who is suffering from parkinsons that's not a good look for lineage.

Shannon Briggs once claimed lineage by beating a 48 year old man in a decision many argue he didn't even deserve. It could be worse.

Claiming lineage isn't always pretty, but it is what it is, and is simple and pure. The man that beat the man. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Cojimar 1946]

Right. Well like I said if you don't understand what lineage means then that's on you brother. I'm not gonna keep explaining it to you.

Maybe lineage doesn't matter. If you can claim lineage by beating a guy outside the top 10 who is suffering from parkinsons that's not a good look for lineage.

Shannon Briggs once claimed lineage by beating a 48 year old man in a decision many argue he didn't even deserve. It could be worse.

Claiming lineage isn't always pretty, but it is what it is, and is simple and pure. The man that beat the man. Nothing more, nothing less.

Most people didn't regard Briggs as champ though. His claim was ignored by the general public.

And it becomes more ridiculous the longer someone is retired and the more shot they are.

[gilgamesh]

Maybe lineage doesn't matter. If you can claim lineage by beating a guy outside the top 10 who is suffering from parkinsons that's not a good look for lineage.

Shannon Briggs once claimed lineage by beating a 48 year old man in a decision many argue he didn't even deserve. It could be worse.

Claiming lineage isn't always pretty, but it is what it is, and is simple and pure. The man that beat the man. Nothing more, nothing less.

Most people didn't regard Briggs as champ though. His claim was ignored by the general public

It isn't ignored by me.

Thankfully he promptly lost his undeserved title immediately against Lennox Lewis, and we were spared of Briggs piling up a string of title defenses against his usual level of opposition. The Boxing Gods are good to us like that sometimes.

[Cojimar 1946]

Shannon Briggs once claimed lineage by beating a 48 year old man in a decision many argue he didn't even deserve. It could be worse.

Claiming lineage isn't always pretty, but it is what it is, and is simple and pure. The man that beat the man. Nothing more, nothing less.

Most people didn't regard Briggs as champ though. His claim was ignored by the general public

It isn't ignored by me. I'm a Purist.

Thankfully he promptly lost his undeserved title immediately against Lennox Lewis, and we were spared of Briggs piling up a string of title defenses against his usual level of opposition. The Boxing Gods are good to us like that sometimes.

If he had the boxing public would have ignored it. Nobody would argue Lewis wasn't the real champ after beating Holyfield even if Briggs hadn't fought him.

[gilgamesh]

Generally speaking Lewis would've been considered and was considered the #1 Heavyweight with or without Briggs yes, but Briggs would've legitimately had claim of the Lineal Championship, though admittedly a devalued version of it as it had already become in the hands of George Foreman due to the way he chose to defend it after 1995.

Likewise in Usyk's final bout though he will still be defending the Lineal Title, it will now be a devalued version of it since he has given up all the titles, and is choosing to avoid all of the best possible opposition from the looks of it. Which is his right at this stage of his career.

That being said if he loses. Guess what the man that beat him is?

[Syntax Error]

Why is it that it's only in the heavyweight division that people seem to care about the linear title?

I rarely, if ever hear discussions about linear champions in the lower weight classes.

If it's so it important amongst the big boys, it should be just as important in the lower weights.

[gilgamesh]

Why is it that it's only in the heavyweight division that people seem to care about the linear title?

I rarely, if ever hear discussions about linear champions in the lower weight classes.

If it's so it important amongst the big boys, it should be just as important in the lower weights.

It's easier to keep up with in the Heavyweight division, but people care about the Linear Title in any weight class.

For example: Antonio Tarver was WBC Light Heavyweight Champion and Glen Johnson was IBF Light Heavyweight Champion in 2004. Both men vacated their titles to fight each other for the Ring Magazine Light Heavyweight Championship which was also essentially the Lineal Title as is typically the case with the Ring Magazine belt.

When Hopkins defeated Tarver, I don't believe any belt was on the line except for The Ring belt. It is considered one of his 3 Light Heavyweight Title reigns.

If Crawford were to return to Boxing at 168, he'd be the Champion until somebody beat him.

As far as I know Marco Antonio Barrera only held the Ring Magazine Featherweight Championship when Pacquiao defeated him. Pacquiao's claim as Featherweight Champion is recognized even though the only title he held there is the Lineal one. I think the same may apply at Jr. Welterweight and his win over Ricky Hatton, but I'm not certain on that.

So it does come up in other places.

[Ambling Alp II]

Right. Well like I said if you don't understand what lineage means then that's on you brother. I'm not gonna keep explaining it to you.

Maybe lineage doesn't matter. If you can claim lineage by beating a guy outside the top 10 who is suffering from parkinsons that's not a good look for lineage.

If you can only lose your title in the ring that would mean Lewis could come out of retirement tomorrow and lose to a journeyman which would give them lineage

I think Lineal Matters. If you just look at the lineal hw champions and (any other weight classes as well) you can tell that on average that the Lineal champion was much more worthy than the WBA, WBC, IBF, or WBO champions.

But yes, at times it does seem like a joke. (Though obviously not nearly as often as the WBS titles)

The Holmes and Briggs situations are good examples of it being silly.

Here is a gray area that nobody wants to talk about:

James Jeffries retires as champion. in 1905. Marvin Hart defeats Jake Root and is now usually referred to as a lineal champion. Tommy Burns beat Hart. Burns is also referred to as a lineal champion.
Jack Johnson beats Burns and is considered the lineal champion.
However, Jeffries comes out of retirement and fights Johnson. Johnson wins.
Since Jeffires didn't lose the title in the ring, then Johnson was really the lineal champion until he beat Jeffries.
Which means that neither Hart nor Burns were never the lineal champion....

[gilgamesh]

Right. Well like I said if you don't understand what lineage means then that's on you brother. I'm not gonna keep explaining it to you.

Maybe lineage doesn't matter. If you can claim lineage by beating a guy outside the top 10 who is suffering from parkinsons that's not a good look for lineage.

If you can only lose your title in the ring that would mean Lewis could come out of retirement tomorrow and lose to a journeyman which would give them lineage

I think Lineal Matters. If you just look at the lineal hw champions and (any other weight classes as well) you can tell that on average that the Lineal champion was much more worthy than the WBA, WBC, IBF, or WBO champions.

But yes, at times it does seem like a joke. (Though obviously not nearly as often as the WBS titles)

The Holmes and Briggs situations are good examples of it being silly.

Here is a gray area that nobody wants to talk about:

James Jeffries retires as champion. in 1905. Marvin Hart defeats Jake Root and is now usually referred to as a lineal champion. Tommy Burns beat Hart. Burns is also referred to as a lineal champion.
Jack Johnson beats Burns and is considered the lineal champion.
However, Jeffries comes out of retirement and fights Johnson. Johnson wins.
Since Jeffires didn't lose the title in the ring, then Johnson was really the lineal champion until he beat Jeffries.
Which means that neither Hart nor Burns were never the lineal champion....

All correct. I look at it as a new lineage had to be created after the retirement of Jeffries, but Johnson was able to solidify the lineage with his victory over the returning Jeffries who had never lost his title. He had already of course beaten Burns.

It's rare throughout Heavyweight history that the lineage gets broken as Champions over never retire on top. It's just the nature of the beast. It's hard to step away when there's still a fortune to be made with another fight.

Holmes aside from having beaten Ali also beat Norton, Weaver, Berbick, Bonecrusher Smith, Witherspoon.

That's 6 other men who had some claim at one time or another to a Heavyweight Championship that Holmes defeated. No other Champion of the era has a record like that. Even without the victory over Ali, Holmes was obviously the premier talent of the era. Suggesting any other titleholder during his reign held the same level of prestige he did is absurd.

[Cojimar 1946]

Generally speaking Lewis would've been considered and was considered the #1 Heavyweight with or without Briggs yes, but Briggs would've legitimately had claim of the Lineal Championship, though admittedly a devalued version of it as it had already become in the hands of George Foreman due to the way he chose to defend it after 1995.

Likewise in Usyk's final bout though he will still be defending the Lineal Title, it will now be a devalued version of it since he has given up all the titles, and is choosing to avoid all of the best possible opposition from the looks of it. Which is his right at this stage of his career.

That being said if he loses. Guess what the man that beat him is?

Mike Tyson is another example. He gained widespread recognition as champ without lineage and was overwhelmingly recognized as the man prior to beating Spinks. If Spinks had ducked him for another two years nobody would claim Tyson wasn't the real champ.

I recognize him as the legitimate champ from Berbick onwards and most people do from Tucker onwards if not earlier

[gilgamesh]

Generally speaking Lewis would've been considered and was considered the #1 Heavyweight with or without Briggs yes, but Briggs would've legitimately had claim of the Lineal Championship, though admittedly a devalued version of it as it had already become in the hands of George Foreman due to the way he chose to defend it after 1995.

Likewise in Usyk's final bout though he will still be defending the Lineal Title, it will now be a devalued version of it since he has given up all the titles, and is choosing to avoid all of the best possible opposition from the looks of it. Which is his right at this stage of his career.

That being said if he loses. Guess what the man that beat him is?

Mike Tyson is another example. He gained widespread recognition as champ without lineage and was overwhelmingly recognized as the man prior to beating Spinks.

If Spinks had ducked him for another two years and he ended up losing to Douglas nobody would claim Tyson wasn't the real champ

Tyson had become the Unified Champion, and the win over Michael Spinks was the last piece of the Puzzle for him. He was certainly already seen as the Champion in the eyes of the public before beating MIchael Spinks no doubt.

Thankfully for us. Tyson beat Spinks, and kept the lineage going, and also removed any speculation as to who the man was. Not that there was much.

[Syntax Error]

Generally speaking Lewis would've been considered and was considered the #1 Heavyweight with or without Briggs yes, but Briggs would've legitimately had claim of the Lineal Championship, though admittedly a devalued version of it as it had already become in the hands of George Foreman due to the way he chose to defend it after 1995.

Likewise in Usyk's final bout though he will still be defending the Lineal Title, it will now be a devalued version of it since he has given up all the titles, and is choosing to avoid all of the best possible opposition from the looks of it. Which is his right at this stage of his career.

That being said if he loses. Guess what the man that beat him is?

Mike Tyson is another example. He gained widespread recognition as champ without lineage and was overwhelmingly recognized as the man prior to beating Spinks. If Spinks had ducked him for another two years nobody would claim Tyson wasn't the real champ.

I recognize him as the legitimate champ from Berbick onwards and most people do from Tucker onwards if not earlier

This is a great point.

Mike Tyson was undisputed champion by the end of 1987, but he wasn't the linear champion.

Like you have said, what would have happened if Spinks had never fought Tyson, but kept on winning?

You would have had an almost parallel heavyweight champion alongside the so-called undisputed champion and number 1 fighter in the division.

It would have been a case of boxing eating itself.

[gilgamesh]

But why doesn't that happen? Because promoters see the Lineal title as important enough to pursue it. So they offered Michael Spinks a boat load of money to convince him to step into the ring with Mike Tyson.

If the Lineal title didn't matter. Why was Tyson vs Spinks such a big matchup to make?

Ultimately it usually works itself out because any fighter that considers themselves a True World Champion is going to pursue other so called Champions.

[Cojimar 1946]

Generally speaking Lewis would've been considered and was considered the #1 Heavyweight with or without Briggs yes, but Briggs would've legitimately had claim of the Lineal Championship, though admittedly a devalued version of it as it had already become in the hands of George Foreman due to the way he chose to defend it after 1995.

Likewise in Usyk's final bout though he will still be defending the Lineal Title, it will now be a devalued version of it since he has given up all the titles, and is choosing to avoid all of the best possible opposition from the looks of it. Which is his right at this stage of his career.

That being said if he loses. Guess what the man that beat him is?

Mike Tyson is another example. He gained widespread recognition as champ without lineage and was overwhelmingly recognized as the man prior to beating Spinks. If Spinks had ducked him for another two years nobody would claim Tyson wasn't the real champ.

I recognize him as the legitimate champ from Berbick onwards and most people do from Tucker onwards if not earlier

This is a great point.

Mike Tyson was undisputed champion by the end of 1987, but he wasn't the linear champion.

Like you have said, what would have happened if Spinks had never fought Tyson, but kept on winning?

You would have had an almost parallel heavyweight champion alongside the so-called undisputed champion and number 1 fighter in the division.

It would have been a case of boxing eating itself.

Spinks wasn't capable of taking on and beating the best contenders so Tyson would have been fighting and beating better opponents.

That's the main reason Tyson was recognized as champ without beating Spinks because he was beating far better opponent and in more impressive fashion

[SteveO]

Most people didn't regard Briggs as champ though. His claim was ignored by the general public.

Doesn't matter. Like it or not Briggs was the lineal champion.

[gilgamesh]

Most people didn't regard Briggs as champ though. His claim was ignored by the general public.

Doesn't matter. Like it or not Briggs was the lineal champion.

And does he get the fight with Lennox Lewis without being regarded as Lineal Champion? Lewis had a lot of options at that moment, but he went with Briggs right after Briggs got the W over Big George.

No coincidence that Lewis and his people suddenly had interest in Briggs after Briggs got that decision.