Corrie Sanders vs Ken Norton

[gilgamesh]

One thing that stands out for Wlad is that he never beat the #1 in the division. He became #1, but didn't have to beat the lineal champ to do it.

There wasn't a Lineal Champ to beat. The circumstances of the time. It's always like that when a title is vacated. The only time they ever handled a vacated title 100% right was when Marciano vacated and they had a Tournament to crown a new Champion. That should be standard protocol when a Champ vacated i think.

I know that, but that doesn't alter the fact that he didn't beat the man. Ali beat Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Wlad didn't beat a single guy in their league.

Ok. What do you want me to do about that?

He didn't beat the Lineal Champ. There were plenty of Heavyweight titlists who also didn't beat the Lineal Champ, and only held 1 title. They didn't hold 'em as long as Wladimir, and in most cases they didn't unify with any of the other belts.

As far as Champions who never beat the Lineal Champ to gain their recognition as the Top Dog. I think you'd have a hard time finding one as accomplished as Wladimir.

Also it must be noted that Wladimir didn't beat "the man" because there was no "the man" to beat after Lennox Lewis retired as Champion.

For the record I have Ali as my #1 All Time Heavyweight so you don't gotta try to convince me that Ali was better than Wladimir because you're preaching to the choir on that one. Ali was better than every Heavyweight Champion in my opinion.

[keithmoonhangover]

There wasn't a Lineal Champ to beat. The circumstances of the time. It's always like that when a title is vacated. The only time they ever handled a vacated title 100% right was when Marciano vacated and they had a Tournament to crown a new Champion. That should be standard protocol when a Champ vacated i think.

I know that, but that doesn't alter the fact that he didn't beat the man. Ali beat Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Wlad didn't beat a single guy in their league.

Ok. What do you want me to do about that?

He didn't beat the Lineal Champ. There were plenty of Heavyweight titlists who also didn't beat the Lineal Champ, and only held 1 title. They didn't hold 'em as long as Wladimir, and in most cases they didn't unify with any of the other belts.

As far as Champions who never beat the Lineal Champ to gain their recognition as the Top Dog. I think you'd have a hard time finding one as accomplished as Wladimir.

Also it must be noted that Wladimir didn't beat "the man" because there was no "the man" to beat after Lennox Lewis retired as Champion.

For the record I have Ali as my #1 All Time Heavyweight so you don't gotta try to convince me that Ali was better than Wladimir because you're preaching to the choir on that one. Ali was better than every Heavyweight Champion in my opinion.

He might have had a lot of defences, but a lot of them were for WBS paper titles. His opponents were for the most part very poor.

[gilgamesh]

I know that, but that doesn't alter the fact that he didn't beat the man. Ali beat Liston, Frazier and Foreman. Wlad didn't beat a single guy in their league.

Ok. What do you want me to do about that?

He didn't beat the Lineal Champ. There were plenty of Heavyweight titlists who also didn't beat the Lineal Champ, and only held 1 title. They didn't hold 'em as long as Wladimir, and in most cases they didn't unify with any of the other belts.

As far as Champions who never beat the Lineal Champ to gain their recognition as the Top Dog. I think you'd have a hard time finding one as accomplished as Wladimir.

Also it must be noted that Wladimir didn't beat "the man" because there was no "the man" to beat after Lennox Lewis retired as Champion.

For the record I have Ali as my #1 All Time Heavyweight so you don't gotta try to convince me that Ali was better than Wladimir because you're preaching to the choir on that one. Ali was better than every Heavyweight Champion in my opinion.

He might have had a lot of defences, but a lot of them were for WBS paper titles. His opponents were for the most part very poor.

A Champion makes the title. By the end of his "WBS" title reign he was considered The man to beat. That's all he could've done considering that the previous man to beat had retired as Champion.

His opponents were for the most part poor, I agree. You can only fight who's there, and many Heavyweight Titlists against similarly mediocre opposition have had significantly less success. You don't succeed at the very top of a sport for years and years at a time by accident or by dumb luck.

I don't really understand why I have to justify that Wladimir is a great fighter to you guys. His record speaks for itself. Surely you'd rank him in the Top 15 or Top 20 right? So how is that all that far off from what I say? Why do we need argue for pages and pages over having a guy something like 3 to 5 rungs apart on a list

Whether you have Wladimir at #10, #15 or #20 or #30. He's a great fighter. If you're one of the 100 best Heavyweights that ever lived in a Sport that's been around for well over a Century. You're a great fighter. You have to have been.

Look throughout Boxing history. Look anywhere in any weight class. Find a name that won 20 or more Championship fights. Look at the names that you see.

Joe Louis
Larry Holmes
Henry Armstrong
Julio Cesar Chavez
Manny Pacquiao
Floyd Mayweather Jr.
Bernard Hopkins
Saul "Canelo" Alvarez
Marco Antonio Barrera

and...yes Wladimir Klitschko

All those names I listed. They're all chumps right? It's not like they all dominated the P4P list for years and years and or Heavyweight Boxing like nobody else right?

[Ambling Alp II]

Excuses for fighters you want to make excuses for.

Same old Alp. You keep being wrong bud. I'll keep being right.

Wladimir went to be Champion for almost 10 years when he started training with Emanuel Steward but you don't excuse his losses before Steward as him being Pre-Prime do you?

Why is that?

Because your criteria changes from fighter to fighter like I always say and like you always prove. Over and over.

Klitschko had real trainers before he had Steward. He also had a management team. He (and many others of modern times) get carefully selected opponents that they couldn't possibly lose to. It's not like he was teenager without a trainer fighting whoever he could get like most fighters had to do way back.

He lost to Brewster with Steward. Then he beat weak compeittion. Good for him.

I'm making excuses? Klitschko gets embarrassed by non-contenders 3x and we are supposed to dismiss this?
Klitschko never beat a great fighter. Not one.

Yeah I'm the one making excuses.

[Ambling Alp II]

Tommy Burns had a record of 12-1 in title fights. Did people rank him and Joe Louis 1-2 in all time rankings? Of course not. Because people used their brain and realized that you have to look at the quality of their competition.

Floyd Patterson won 8 title fights. Is he considered better than Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman? Of course not.

If Klitschko (or Burns or Patterson for that matter) came along in the early 1970s, would they have been racking up title defenses year after year? With Frazier, Ali, Foreman, etc? Of course not. They probably never would have been the champion.

You have to look at the quality of competition and use some common sense, The sheer amount of title wins means absolutely nothing.

[gilgamesh]

Excuses for fighters you want to make excuses for.

Same old Alp. You keep being wrong bud. I'll keep being right.

Wladimir went to be Champion for almost 10 years when he started training with Emanuel Steward but you don't excuse his losses before Steward as him being Pre-Prime do you?

Why is that?

Because your criteria changes from fighter to fighter like I always say and like you always prove. Over and over.

Klitschko had real trainers before he had Steward. He also had a management team. He (and many others of modern times) get carefully selected opponents that they couldn't possibly lose to. It's not like he was teenager without a trainer fighting whoever he could get like most fighters had to do way back.

He lost to Brewster with Steward. Then he beat weak compeittion. Good for him.

I'm making excuses? Klitschko gets embarrassed by non-contenders 3x and we are supposed to dismiss this?
Klitschko never beat a great fighter. Not one.

Yeah I'm the one making excuses.

You are. I didn't make excuses for Wladimir's losses did I? I just didn't stop paying attention after he lost, and I don't still live in 2004 where he's never gonna amount to anything.

[gilgamesh]

Tommy Burns had a record of 12-1 in title fights. Did people rank him and Joe Louis 1-2 in all time rankings? Of course not. Because people used their brain and realized that you have to look at the quality of their competition.

Floyd Patterson won 8 title fights. Is he considered better than Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman? Of course not.

If Klitschko (or Burns or Patterson for that matter) came along in the early 1970s, would they have been racking up title defenses year after year? With Frazier, Ali, Foreman, etc? Of course not. They probably never would have been the champion.

You have to look at the quality of competition and use some common sense, The sheer amount of title wins means absolutely nothing.

I look at everything. Quality of competition. Wins. Level of performance. Losses.

I've established this over and over and over and over again.

I don't rank Tommy Burns particularly highly. I don't rank Patterson above Foreman, Frazier and Dempsey.

It's funny how you'll shit on Wladimir's wins over Byrd or Povetkin as nothing and then you'll praise Pinklon Thomas for beating Tim Witherspoon and Mike Weaver as if those were better wins. They're not.

[Ambling Alp II]

Oh yes you look at everything. You keep saying that. you know more than anyone else. You are comparable Einstein. Yes I have seen you say these things. Please.

I have never seen anyone refer to statistics in boxing nearly so much. Almost everyone who has followed the sport for any length of time come to realize how deceiving they can be. Not you.

Never said that Byrd and Povetkin are nothing. They were good fighters. Nowhere near great. Every great heavyweight beat better fighters. There have many heavyweights that could have beaten them both and made every title defense that Klitschko made. Klitschko was fortunate that the division was so bad after Lewis retired.

Witherspoon and Weaver were good fighters, not great. Thomas beat them both. Looked very good in doing so. That's all I am saying about those wins. Thomas was a good fighter, certainly not great. And nobody is saying Thomas is an ATG.

The point about Patterson and Bburn's title defenses is that everyone always knew that they didn't mean much. (Especially Burns). The same with Klitschko.

[gilgamesh]

Floyd Patterson is probably no less than a Top 25 All Time Heavy so you're insulting him a bit by selling him so short.

Nobody including me rates Burns all that highly.

Wladimir Klitschko is more accomplished than both those guys and many others. He's better than just good.

Rate him how you wish. Stop wasting my time with your double standard ass opinions on modern day fighters.

[Ambling Alp II]

Wasting your time? You have way more time that you know what to do with. you are on this site around the clock. I went to finish some yard work that took 15-20 minutes. I bet myself that you would have replied to my post and sure enough you did.

[gilgamesh]

Wasting your time? You have way more time that you know what to do with. you are on this site around the clock. I went to finish some yard work that took 15-20 minutes. I bet myself that you would have replied to my post and sure enough you did.

"You have way more time than you know what to do with."

I'll give it to ya on that one.

I do dedicate a lot of time to discussing this stuff. More than I should, but it's usually fruitful, and our arguments have lead to me watching more of these guys so as to be more knowledgeable of the subject so that's been fun. Probably gonna watch less Classic Boxing next year, and stick with more of the modern names, but I'll still sneak in a Marathon of some respected fighter's fights when I get the time. I'm watching all of Juan Manuel Marquez's fights right now when at home this week, That's been fun. He had some good ones on the way up.