I didn't think about this until last night, but there is a feature on TITLE BOUT that has an auto-aging factor, and I remember the huge debate we all had whether or not Rocky Marciano could have went on for a few more years, defeating the likes of Patterson, Satterfield, Baker, Walls, and even Johansson.
I figured maybe sometime in the near future I could do this, and simulate how Marciano would have faired as he aged. Mind you Marciano did say that he felt he had three or four more years left in him, which would have been to 1959-1960.
I know the computer simulations are more or less all in fun, but it is the closest thing. Anyone think this is a good idea?
What If?
-
Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
-
BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
Marciano said when he retired " i have about 2-3 good fights left in me"
Marciano would have had probably one last hurrah vs patterson in 1956, then he would have struggled alot in 1957, but after 1957 he would be far gone and by 1958 he would be ripe for the taken. swarmers never last that long. marciano was already showing sharp declines in 1955.
I think it would go something like this.......
early 1956: Marciano KO 9 bob baker. Baker won eliminater vs valdez in late 1955 and baker was # 2 ranked in early 1956 and had been requesting a title shot for years. bakers size, skill, power give rocky trouble but rocky keeps on going forward and breaks the big man down slowly and precisely and finishes a worn out baker in round 9.
late 1956: Marciano TKO 6 floyd patterson- big draw, big money, this was a superfight with a great aging champion in marciano vs a # 1 ranked olympic champion. floyd outboxes aging rocky early and his combination of youthness and handspeed give rocky a lot of trouble early. however rocky begins to breakdown floyd and rough him up in the clinches and catches up to 182lb not fully matured floyd and floyd vunerable chin lets him down. rocky knocks floyd down 3 times in the 6th before the ref stops the fight.
1957: Weill takes on a fight with eddie machen due to eddie machens undefeated record, top ranking, and him calling out marciano. Weill usually only had marciano fight # 1 ranked contenders during marcianos reign, so why should weill suddenly change his rythm?? weill believes marcianos experience will do him well vs just over 10 pro fights eddie machen.
Marciano W 15 split eddie machen- controversial decision. marcianos age really showed and machens youthness, skills, speed really befuddled marciano and marciano had a very tough time catching him. marcianos late round surge gave him the close decision in a fight where many ringsiders thought machen won. marciano really seemed to lack the snap in his punches.
late 1957: marciano TKO 14 eddie machen- one last great fight by marciano. his last hurrah. fight dead even after 13, with a brokendown machen cant take marcianos volume of punches any longer and crumbles. rocky was always great at rematches.
1958: Al weill would prob book marciano vs hard punching Pat Mccurity, who would be a great draw. irish vs italians plus mccmurity was # 4 ranked.
marciano KO 10 pat mccurity- marciano looks awfully old in the process.
late 1958: Weill knowing 35 year old marciano is far past his prime now wants to try to hold on to the title as long as possible.
takes on british champ henry cooper in wembley. good draw there plus cooper was ranked high enough.
Marciano TKO 9 cooper- marciano knocked down from hard left hook in round 2. cooper looks like a bloody vagina by round 9.
mid 1959: blinky Palermo and balsamo force al weill to send marciano in the ring vs sonny liston. Weill knowing a near 36 year old marciano is most likely going to get beat, makes sure marciano gets a much higher purse than liston and weill also steals money off marciano. weill does this because he feels this will most likely be marcianos last fight as champ so he wants to get as much money as possible from it. shrewd jew weill was.
Sonny Liston TKO 7 rocky marciano- A 36 year old marciano takes a frightening beating from a peak sonny liston but shows increible amounts of heart and determination and refuses to stay down for the 10 count. liston comments after how much respect he has gained for marciano after this fight.
I think marciano was past his prime when he retired....but i think he was such a great fighter, that he would have had good success for a couple years even when he was past his prime. it all depends on how weill managed him 1956-57 and who he sent him in the ring against. i think rockys peak was in 1951-52 when he had his full speed and full one punch firepower.
Marciano would have had probably one last hurrah vs patterson in 1956, then he would have struggled alot in 1957, but after 1957 he would be far gone and by 1958 he would be ripe for the taken. swarmers never last that long. marciano was already showing sharp declines in 1955.
I think it would go something like this.......
early 1956: Marciano KO 9 bob baker. Baker won eliminater vs valdez in late 1955 and baker was # 2 ranked in early 1956 and had been requesting a title shot for years. bakers size, skill, power give rocky trouble but rocky keeps on going forward and breaks the big man down slowly and precisely and finishes a worn out baker in round 9.
late 1956: Marciano TKO 6 floyd patterson- big draw, big money, this was a superfight with a great aging champion in marciano vs a # 1 ranked olympic champion. floyd outboxes aging rocky early and his combination of youthness and handspeed give rocky a lot of trouble early. however rocky begins to breakdown floyd and rough him up in the clinches and catches up to 182lb not fully matured floyd and floyd vunerable chin lets him down. rocky knocks floyd down 3 times in the 6th before the ref stops the fight.
1957: Weill takes on a fight with eddie machen due to eddie machens undefeated record, top ranking, and him calling out marciano. Weill usually only had marciano fight # 1 ranked contenders during marcianos reign, so why should weill suddenly change his rythm?? weill believes marcianos experience will do him well vs just over 10 pro fights eddie machen.
Marciano W 15 split eddie machen- controversial decision. marcianos age really showed and machens youthness, skills, speed really befuddled marciano and marciano had a very tough time catching him. marcianos late round surge gave him the close decision in a fight where many ringsiders thought machen won. marciano really seemed to lack the snap in his punches.
late 1957: marciano TKO 14 eddie machen- one last great fight by marciano. his last hurrah. fight dead even after 13, with a brokendown machen cant take marcianos volume of punches any longer and crumbles. rocky was always great at rematches.
1958: Al weill would prob book marciano vs hard punching Pat Mccurity, who would be a great draw. irish vs italians plus mccmurity was # 4 ranked.
marciano KO 10 pat mccurity- marciano looks awfully old in the process.
late 1958: Weill knowing 35 year old marciano is far past his prime now wants to try to hold on to the title as long as possible.
takes on british champ henry cooper in wembley. good draw there plus cooper was ranked high enough.
Marciano TKO 9 cooper- marciano knocked down from hard left hook in round 2. cooper looks like a bloody vagina by round 9.
mid 1959: blinky Palermo and balsamo force al weill to send marciano in the ring vs sonny liston. Weill knowing a near 36 year old marciano is most likely going to get beat, makes sure marciano gets a much higher purse than liston and weill also steals money off marciano. weill does this because he feels this will most likely be marcianos last fight as champ so he wants to get as much money as possible from it. shrewd jew weill was.
Sonny Liston TKO 7 rocky marciano- A 36 year old marciano takes a frightening beating from a peak sonny liston but shows increible amounts of heart and determination and refuses to stay down for the 10 count. liston comments after how much respect he has gained for marciano after this fight.
I think marciano was past his prime when he retired....but i think he was such a great fighter, that he would have had good success for a couple years even when he was past his prime. it all depends on how weill managed him 1956-57 and who he sent him in the ring against. i think rockys peak was in 1951-52 when he had his full speed and full one punch firepower.
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Collins, if I wouldn't know any better I think you are making a one man crusade against me. I already admitted my faults, and if it really is that big a deal to you, then I'll add the computer as being wrong with the Toney-Peter fight. Though, even with the two losses against the computer the simulator would still be at the goal of accuracy.
Neways, I do think Brockton has a point, I do give Marciano more credit than what some do, but no doubt a Liston-Marciano fight would have been his hardest fight. But then again, Marciano only seemed interested in coming out of retirement against Johansson, not Liston.
What I'd like to do is figure in the rankings of 1956-1958, because then Patterson, Machen, Johansson and a few others were pretty much near or at their peak. Liston was on the rise during that time, but it wouldn't be until he fought Patterson that Liston was at his peak in the early 1960's.
But I would like to figure in a 1958 Marciano against a 1958 Liston, just to see how it would go. Though swarmers have a short life span, figuring in Marciano's great determination and training prowess, I think The Brockton Blockbuster would have surpassed Dempsey and other swarmers in age and still be a force to be reckoned with.
The key to this simulation is to have Marciano clearly face off with the #1 contenders, as he always did, with the exception of Don Cockell, and with two fights per year Marciano would have four-five fights left in him, maybe six if you throw in a 'gimme' like he did against Cockell.
Figuring that Patterson beat Moore after Marciano retired, it will be Patterson first, then Machen since he was the #1 contender that Patterson ducked for years, then Johansson who beat Machen and Cooper.
Neways, I do think Brockton has a point, I do give Marciano more credit than what some do, but no doubt a Liston-Marciano fight would have been his hardest fight. But then again, Marciano only seemed interested in coming out of retirement against Johansson, not Liston.
What I'd like to do is figure in the rankings of 1956-1958, because then Patterson, Machen, Johansson and a few others were pretty much near or at their peak. Liston was on the rise during that time, but it wouldn't be until he fought Patterson that Liston was at his peak in the early 1960's.
But I would like to figure in a 1958 Marciano against a 1958 Liston, just to see how it would go. Though swarmers have a short life span, figuring in Marciano's great determination and training prowess, I think The Brockton Blockbuster would have surpassed Dempsey and other swarmers in age and still be a force to be reckoned with.
The key to this simulation is to have Marciano clearly face off with the #1 contenders, as he always did, with the exception of Don Cockell, and with two fights per year Marciano would have four-five fights left in him, maybe six if you throw in a 'gimme' like he did against Cockell.
Figuring that Patterson beat Moore after Marciano retired, it will be Patterson first, then Machen since he was the #1 contender that Patterson ducked for years, then Johansson who beat Machen and Cooper.
-
BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
actually listons peak was the late 1950s, not early 1960s.
- marciano was past his prime when he retired in 1956. a 35 year old marciano would have been no match for a peak liston in 1958. it would have been a one sided affair.marciano probably wouldnt have lasted till 1958. swarmers never last that long.
marciano had been showing physical declines since 1954
But I would like to figure in a 1958 Marciano against a 1958 Liston, just to see how it would go. Though swarmers have a short life span, figuring in Marciano's great determination and training prowess, I think The Brockton Blockbuster would have surpassed Dempsey and other swarmers in age and still be a force to be reckoned with.
- marciano was past his prime when he retired in 1956. a 35 year old marciano would have been no match for a peak liston in 1958. it would have been a one sided affair.marciano probably wouldnt have lasted till 1958. swarmers never last that long.
marciano had been showing physical declines since 1954
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Yea but in 1956 Liston was just another contender, a guy on the up and up. Wasn't until 57-58 he was near/at his peak, and if my mind serves me right he didn't fight at all in 1957. It's speculative.
He wouldn't have been a ranked contender since he only fought once in 1956 and none at all in '57. 58-59-60-61-62-63 was his peak years. The only guy he fought with really any credibility was Marty Marshal, who Liston went 2-1 with.
And since this is centered around a 'speculative' Marciano continuation of his career, since he said he wanted to either fight on for 3-4yrs or not even a handful a fights. And according to your quote of '2-3 fights left in me' and since Marciano fought at least 2 times a year, I think it would be safe to say four fights is what we should make it.
Since he only had his last fight in 1955 then there would be two fights for 1956 and two for 1957, where Liston would not fit into the contender status. The men Marcino would face would be #1 contender Nino Valdes, then Floyd Patterson, then Eddie Machen and throw in a 'gimme' against the likes of Roy Harris or Brian London and then put him in against Ingemar Johansson [who knocked out Machen in late 58'].
By that time in 58' Liston was certainly a top 15-10 guy, as he defeated the likes of Bert Whitehurst and Wayne Beathea after his hiatus in 57'. But not exactly a genuine contender for the HW crown, that wouldn't be until 1959. Besides, since Marciano was Weil's 'golden goose' I do think there could have been concern if Marciano took on Liston at this late stage of the game, so facing the amateur-like Johansson who is now in the public eye with his crushing kayo win over Machen, would make him the bigger draw.
So this time table is from 56-late 58. Valdes, Patterson, Machen, London, Harris and Johansson. Or we could replace one of the fighters with Tommy Jackson, whom sparred with Marciano and was a contender when Patterson was champion.
He wouldn't have been a ranked contender since he only fought once in 1956 and none at all in '57. 58-59-60-61-62-63 was his peak years. The only guy he fought with really any credibility was Marty Marshal, who Liston went 2-1 with.
And since this is centered around a 'speculative' Marciano continuation of his career, since he said he wanted to either fight on for 3-4yrs or not even a handful a fights. And according to your quote of '2-3 fights left in me' and since Marciano fought at least 2 times a year, I think it would be safe to say four fights is what we should make it.
Since he only had his last fight in 1955 then there would be two fights for 1956 and two for 1957, where Liston would not fit into the contender status. The men Marcino would face would be #1 contender Nino Valdes, then Floyd Patterson, then Eddie Machen and throw in a 'gimme' against the likes of Roy Harris or Brian London and then put him in against Ingemar Johansson [who knocked out Machen in late 58'].
By that time in 58' Liston was certainly a top 15-10 guy, as he defeated the likes of Bert Whitehurst and Wayne Beathea after his hiatus in 57'. But not exactly a genuine contender for the HW crown, that wouldn't be until 1959. Besides, since Marciano was Weil's 'golden goose' I do think there could have been concern if Marciano took on Liston at this late stage of the game, so facing the amateur-like Johansson who is now in the public eye with his crushing kayo win over Machen, would make him the bigger draw.
So this time table is from 56-late 58. Valdes, Patterson, Machen, London, Harris and Johansson. Or we could replace one of the fighters with Tommy Jackson, whom sparred with Marciano and was a contender when Patterson was champion.
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
As far as Marciano's decline since 1954...I somewhat disagree. I don't think it was so much of a decline, but a decline in power, as Charlie Goldman had changed Marciano's style so much and as time went on Marciano became more and more proficient and more defensive rather than offensive.
Sure 1954 and before he was knocking guys out with one punch, but by the time he fought Moore, you can see how easy it was for him to dodge shots and though he threw several punches, Moore never really hurt Marciano at all, flash knockdown or not.
The Marciano of 1954 and prior threw alot of punches, wasting punches actually, and zapping his strength. Though it scored him quicker knock outs, it was a style that wouldn't have served him to his best benefit as he cut easy because it made him more aggressive---look at how Joe Frazier fought, same style as Rocky just more aggressive, like Marciano was 1954 and prior, but that left Frazier open to alot of shots.
I don't think it was a decline, but rather a decline in brawling and punching power, as the Marciano of 54 and onward was trying to pick his shots rather than go all out.
Sure 1954 and before he was knocking guys out with one punch, but by the time he fought Moore, you can see how easy it was for him to dodge shots and though he threw several punches, Moore never really hurt Marciano at all, flash knockdown or not.
The Marciano of 1954 and prior threw alot of punches, wasting punches actually, and zapping his strength. Though it scored him quicker knock outs, it was a style that wouldn't have served him to his best benefit as he cut easy because it made him more aggressive---look at how Joe Frazier fought, same style as Rocky just more aggressive, like Marciano was 1954 and prior, but that left Frazier open to alot of shots.
I don't think it was a decline, but rather a decline in brawling and punching power, as the Marciano of 54 and onward was trying to pick his shots rather than go all out.
Okay, say this happens and marciano gets worthy wins over Patterson, machen twice and Cooper but loses to Liston he should be rated a little higher than he is today due to these 4 victories alone. Would the loss to Liston have an impact? Are the many Rocky fans overly obsessed with the 49-0 record? I know you're not BB because you've stated as much in previous posts, but would marciano hold the mystique if he were 55-1 (the picture you paint)???BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Marciano said when he retired " i have about 2-3 good fights left in me"
Marciano would have had probably one last hurrah vs patterson in 1956, then he would have struggled alot in 1957, but after 1957 he would be far gone and by 1958 he would be ripe for the taken. swarmers never last that long. marciano was already showing sharp declines in 1955.
I think it would go something like this.......
early 1956: Marciano KO 9 bob baker. Baker won eliminater vs valdez in late 1955 and baker was # 2 ranked in early 1956 and had been requesting a title shot for years. bakers size, skill, power give rocky trouble but rocky keeps on going forward and breaks the big man down slowly and precisely and finishes a worn out baker in round 9.
late 1956: Marciano TKO 6 floyd patterson- big draw, big money, this was a superfight with a great aging champion in marciano vs a # 1 ranked olympic champion. floyd outboxes aging rocky early and his combination of youthness and handspeed give rocky a lot of trouble early. however rocky begins to breakdown floyd and rough him up in the clinches and catches up to 182lb not fully matured floyd and floyd vunerable chin lets him down. rocky knocks floyd down 3 times in the 6th before the ref stops the fight.
1957: Weill takes on a fight with eddie machen due to eddie machens undefeated record, top ranking, and him calling out marciano. Weill usually only had marciano fight # 1 ranked contenders during marcianos reign, so why should weill suddenly change his rythm?? weill believes marcianos experience will do him well vs just over 10 pro fights eddie machen.
Marciano W 15 split eddie machen- controversial decision. marcianos age really showed and machens youthness, skills, speed really befuddled marciano and marciano had a very tough time catching him. marcianos late round surge gave him the close decision in a fight where many ringsiders thought machen won. marciano really seemed to lack the snap in his punches.
late 1957: marciano TKO 14 eddie machen- one last great fight by marciano. his last hurrah. fight dead even after 13, with a brokendown machen cant take marcianos volume of punches any longer and crumbles. rocky was always great at rematches.
1958: Al weill would prob book marciano vs hard punching Pat Mccurity, who would be a great draw. irish vs italians plus mccmurity was # 4 ranked.
marciano KO 10 pat mccurity- marciano looks awfully old in the process.
late 1958: Weill knowing 35 year old marciano is far past his prime now wants to try to hold on to the title as long as possible.
takes on british champ henry cooper in wembley. good draw there plus cooper was ranked high enough.
Marciano TKO 9 cooper- marciano knocked down from hard left hook in round 2. cooper looks like a bloody vagina by round 9.
mid 1959: blinky Palermo and balsamo force al weill to send marciano in the ring vs sonny liston. Weill knowing a near 36 year old marciano is most likely going to get beat, makes sure marciano gets a much higher purse than liston and weill also steals money off marciano. weill does this because he feels this will most likely be marcianos last fight as champ so he wants to get as much money as possible from it. shrewd jew weill was.
Sonny Liston TKO 7 rocky marciano- A 36 year old marciano takes a frightening beating from a peak sonny liston but shows increible amounts of heart and determination and refuses to stay down for the 10 count. liston comments after how much respect he has gained for marciano after this fight.
I think marciano was past his prime when he retired....but i think he was such a great fighter, that he would have had good success for a couple years even when he was past his prime. it all depends on how weill managed him 1956-57 and who he sent him in the ring against. i think rockys peak was in 1951-52 when he had his full speed and full one punch firepower.
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Marciano fought four HOF fighters in Walcott, Louis, Charles and Moore. If he had fought the men I listed and beat them all but Liston, he would have Johansson and Patterson as HOF wins. That would be 6 HOF fighters plus Machen and Cooper and a loss to Liston.
He would undoubtedly be rated much more higher than he is now, as far as losing to Liston if it would take away from him. I think it would be a double-edged sword. Marciano is the only HW champion to never have a loss, and that is a huge thing. But if you take into consideration that Rocky would be much older and facing a prime Liston the loss wouldn't be that bad.
The way I see it is if Marciano fought Liston at that stage of his life, he would have fought his heart out and give Liston some trouble, but Liston would probably end up cutting Marciano up pretty good and the fight be stopped on a TKO. Even in a loss, I don't see Marciano just folding up for anybody, he always fought harder when he was in trouble and I don't see Liston knocking him out, but simply a TKO.
It would make him a greater fighter rank wise I think, think about it, being undefeated in 55 fights beating the likes of Louis, Walcott twice, Charles twice, Moore, Patterson and Johansson. That's a ridicuously high success rate against some really great fighters, especially since Marciano would be slowing down by that time.
Then of course throw in fights with Machen and possibly the greatest British HW champion in Henry Cooper, then you have easily a top 3 HW, which already in many circles people place Marciano inside the top 5 already, hell the BoxRec computer ratings have him at #3.
It's just my opinion, but I think had Rocky come out of retirement against the likes of either Patterson or Johansson, I think he would have become the first man to regain the HW title, but Marciano would have had to have trained for a year to get back into the shape, rather than the usual seven months he usually trained for.
It would have been a matter of quality sparring, extreme road work, diet, and of course the many other excercises he done in the past; hitting his 300 pound punching bag, picking up huge rocks over his head and throwing them as far as he could etc.
I believe it could have been done. As far as your question if it would make him a higher ranked fighter, most certainly it would have. Would it ruin him if he lost to Liston? Yes and No. He would have lost his marquee value as being the ONLY undefeated HW champion in history, but then again, I didn't see anyone criticise George Foreman for losing to Evander Holyfield at age 42.
It would have been a 'pass' on the Rock. I know guys today fight up into their 40's but back then if someone was in their 30's they were considered finished and washed up, but then again the guys of today fight once a year and have all the time in the world to train for one bout, while back in those days guys fought 3, 4, 5 times a year or more.
He would undoubtedly be rated much more higher than he is now, as far as losing to Liston if it would take away from him. I think it would be a double-edged sword. Marciano is the only HW champion to never have a loss, and that is a huge thing. But if you take into consideration that Rocky would be much older and facing a prime Liston the loss wouldn't be that bad.
The way I see it is if Marciano fought Liston at that stage of his life, he would have fought his heart out and give Liston some trouble, but Liston would probably end up cutting Marciano up pretty good and the fight be stopped on a TKO. Even in a loss, I don't see Marciano just folding up for anybody, he always fought harder when he was in trouble and I don't see Liston knocking him out, but simply a TKO.
It would make him a greater fighter rank wise I think, think about it, being undefeated in 55 fights beating the likes of Louis, Walcott twice, Charles twice, Moore, Patterson and Johansson. That's a ridicuously high success rate against some really great fighters, especially since Marciano would be slowing down by that time.
Then of course throw in fights with Machen and possibly the greatest British HW champion in Henry Cooper, then you have easily a top 3 HW, which already in many circles people place Marciano inside the top 5 already, hell the BoxRec computer ratings have him at #3.
It's just my opinion, but I think had Rocky come out of retirement against the likes of either Patterson or Johansson, I think he would have become the first man to regain the HW title, but Marciano would have had to have trained for a year to get back into the shape, rather than the usual seven months he usually trained for.
It would have been a matter of quality sparring, extreme road work, diet, and of course the many other excercises he done in the past; hitting his 300 pound punching bag, picking up huge rocks over his head and throwing them as far as he could etc.
I believe it could have been done. As far as your question if it would make him a higher ranked fighter, most certainly it would have. Would it ruin him if he lost to Liston? Yes and No. He would have lost his marquee value as being the ONLY undefeated HW champion in history, but then again, I didn't see anyone criticise George Foreman for losing to Evander Holyfield at age 42.
It would have been a 'pass' on the Rock. I know guys today fight up into their 40's but back then if someone was in their 30's they were considered finished and washed up, but then again the guys of today fight once a year and have all the time in the world to train for one bout, while back in those days guys fought 3, 4, 5 times a year or more.
I don't agree with this. In my opinion he'd be a greater fighter. Being undefeated is not in itself such a big deal. In fact the measure of a man is sometimes tasting defeat and not falling apart but gathering himself to return again as a winner.IrishRufusMurphy wrote:
He would undoubtedly be rated much more higher than he is now, as far as losing to Liston if it would take away from him. I think it would be a double-edged sword. Marciano is the only HW champion to never have a loss, and that is a huge thing.
Undefeated records are overrated today. The TV people would rather have an undefeated fighter figting nobodies than fighting other top fighters.
Like most statistics it is misleading.
-
HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I already said he'd be a better fighter if he fought Patterson, Machen, Cooper and Liston. All I said was it would be a double-edged sword, because he is the only undefeated HW champion in history. The one loss would somewhat take away from him, but he would be a higher ranked fighter had he fought those men.
Also, if he did lose to Liston, I think a mjority would have given Rocky a 'pass' because he would have been nearly 37-38 years old and on the downside. So his legacy would have been untarnished, as the question would be 'Could Marciano have beaten Liston in his prime?'
Also, if he did lose to Liston, I think a mjority would have given Rocky a 'pass' because he would have been nearly 37-38 years old and on the downside. So his legacy would have been untarnished, as the question would be 'Could Marciano have beaten Liston in his prime?'