Your opinion of Joe Calzaghe's willingness to fight the best

Your opinion of Joe Calzaghe's willingness to fight the best!

A true champion willing to fight anyone/anywhere/anytime!
2
3%
A good champion who has been unlucky with getting the big fights!
13
21%
A champion no different to the majority of other champions!
6
10%
A champion who has avoided some big fights!
31
51%
A fake champion who likes to sit on his titles cherry-picking oponents!
9
15%
 
Total votes: 61

mattyp151
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Post by mattyp151 »

lvlarc_uk wrote:
pundit wrote:
lvlarc_uk wrote:Pundit quit comparing apples with oranges. Fact is Taylor is a big middleweight and could make 168 with ease. Taylor is atop 5 P4P'r

If Oscar beats Mayweather, it will be a huge win for him.

I asked a simple question.
What exactly is your simple question?

As for DLH, he's long established himself as an ATG, the general view is that he's past his prime, Floyd Mayweather is the greatest fighter of our generation, and DLH would go down to PBF's weight rather than the other way round.

None of this applies to Calzaghe/Taylor. Hence if I compare apples to oranges you compare apples to - hmmmm -- garage doors?
.

I mentioned Oscar beating Floyd because by your logic, Mayweather would have to achieve something at 150/154 prior to getting beat by golden Boy (because Oscar isn't going down to 147) for Oscar to get the praises, which is wrong.

The general view is that Calzaghe too, has passed his prime.

The simple question wasn't even directed towards you.
On the Oscar/Mayweather fight, if it takes place at 154, and Oscar wins, there will always be that asterisk that Floyd went too far. However, if Oscar comes to 147 and wins, there would be no way to devalue that win whatsoever.

If Joe fights a guy who has had an entire career at 160 at 168, there will eb that question that maybe JT should've just stayed at MW and overstepped his boundary. If Joe went to 160, you couldn't do that.
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Post by Taki... »

Of course you can devalue Mayweather beating DLH at 147... DLH has fought very infrequently in recent years, he's clearly past his best, he would be having to drop 7 extra pounds, he will be 34, etc.
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Post by lvlarc »

Joe has trouble making 168, 160 is never going to happen and I stick to my point, Calzaghe beating Taylor at 168 would be just a big as Oscar beating Floyd at 150/154. However in this case, the MW actually has the bigger frame.
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Post by mattyp151 »

Taki... wrote:Of course you can devalue Mayweather beating DLH at 147... DLH has fought very infrequently in recent years, he's clearly past his best, he would be having to drop 7 extra pounds, he will be 34, etc.
I never said anything about if Floyd wins...I said if Oscar beats Floyd at 147, it's a unbelievable win. Not once did I mention Floyd winning at 147 could not be devalued.
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Post by Taki... »

Mattyp151 wrote:
Taki... wrote:Of course you can devalue Mayweather beating DLH at 147... DLH has fought very infrequently in recent years, he's clearly past his best, he would be having to drop 7 extra pounds, he will be 34, etc.
I never said anything about if Floyd wins...I said if Oscar beats Floyd at 147, it's a unbelievable win. Not once did I mention Floyd winning at 147 could not be devalued.
Fair enough, but any win can be devalued (usually with a massive dose of hindsight)... look at Pacquiao/Barrera (Barrera had a night off!), Hatton/Tszyu (Tszyu was shot), Calzaghe/Lacy (Lacy was shit)... on and on it goes.
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Post by mattyp151 »

Taki... wrote:
Mattyp151 wrote:
Taki... wrote:Of course you can devalue Mayweather beating DLH at 147... DLH has fought very infrequently in recent years, he's clearly past his best, he would be having to drop 7 extra pounds, he will be 34, etc.
I never said anything about if Floyd wins...I said if Oscar beats Floyd at 147, it's a unbelievable win. Not once did I mention Floyd winning at 147 could not be devalued.
Fair enough, but any win can be devalued (usually with a massive dose of hindsight)... look at Pacquiao/Barrera (Barrera had a night off!), Hatton/Tszyu (Tszyu was shot), Calzaghe/Lacy (Lacy was shit)... on and on it goes.
A bad night is not a valid excuse, you work 2-3 times, a year, you have 362 other days to have an off night.

Tszyu wasn't shot, but wasn't the same guy he had been.

Can't devalue Calzaghe/Lacy too much, because eventhough Lacy is shit and limited, no professional and no champion should ever ever ever get beat like that.
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Post by Taki... »

Mattyp151 wrote:
Taki... wrote:
Mattyp151 wrote: I never said anything about if Floyd wins...I said if Oscar beats Floyd at 147, it's a unbelievable win. Not once did I mention Floyd winning at 147 could not be devalued.
Fair enough, but any win can be devalued (usually with a massive dose of hindsight)... look at Pacquiao/Barrera (Barrera had a night off!), Hatton/Tszyu (Tszyu was shot), Calzaghe/Lacy (Lacy was shit)... on and on it goes.
A bad night is not a valid excuse, you work 2-3 times, a year, you have 362 other days to have an off night.

Tszyu wasn't shot, but wasn't the same guy he had been.

Can't devalue Calzaghe/Lacy too much, because eventhough Lacy is shit and limited, no professional and no champion should ever ever ever get beat like that.
But you see my point! It's pretty easy to pick holes in any victory... even if they're not really there.
I could easily argue that Baldomir is the first genuine Welterweight Floyd has faced and that DLH is a couple of classes above him... I could also say Floyd is fighting 7lbs above his ideal weight, atm... such things could be argued to take kudos away from DLH beating PBF at 147.
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Post by pundit »

Terence wrote:Taylor is a very good middleweight. Jumping to SM and taking on a a top guy in his first fight will be a big ask, to his eternal credit I imagine if the call comes Taylor will give it a bash.
This would be poor career planning for Taylor. The fella is young and hasn't been at the highest level for that long.

He should first establish himself as the clear #1 at 160 and gain experience in the process - give a refight to Winky, fight a couple of other strong challengers, say Abraham or Sturm. Thereafter he could step up to 168, win a belt there, and then challenge the man at 168 (who will probably be Kessler at the time) -- if he wishes. Similar to how Tito did it when he went to 160. This said, 168 is generally less interesting and has a lower reputation than 175 or 160, so perhaps he should just use it as a stepping stone a la RJJ.
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Post by Autobarn »

Taki... wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote: How do you know Beyer didn't go to win? Just because Kessler harrasses him with the jab. In other words, because he lost to a better fighter, he came to lose.

Beyer is a slow starter, but he was given no respite. Kessler threw outstanding jabs at im to hurt him, break his rhythm, and take away any ambition he entered the ring with. In short, he beat Beyer before Beyer could even get started.

Kessler is an excellent fighter. Many ppl were picking him to have real struggles with Beyer. He demolishes a fellow title holder, and then gets no credit for stopping a quality fighter.

Beyer took a big right hand. On the canvas, he was stunned and was too disorientated to carry on. I didn't say knocked cold.


Ultimately, Kessler has gone after a fellow title holder and won in one sided fashion. That's all that can be expected of modern day world champions. & that's exactly what the great Hopkins did, went after everyone & beat them out of sight.

Kessler has wanted fights with Beyer, Calzaghe and Lacy for ages. Yet no one wants to fight him.
There's no doubt Kessler was better than Beyer, but the fact remains Beyer did not turn up at that fight looking to win. Beyer has NEVER shown any ambition to unify titles in the past, now suddenly, when he's in heavy decline, he changes the habits of a life time by heading for hostile territory to fight superior opposition for big payday... hmmmmm.

Beyer was a NON-STARTER, he had every intention of looking for a quick way out of that contest and a very professional Kessler provided it for him nice and early. In short Beyer BEAT Beyer before the ink was dry on the contract.

Kessler is a good fighter, who I picked to beat Beyer, simply because Beyer was over the hill and looking for a payday (I couldn't help being spot on).

Beyer walked onto a right straight down the pipe, looked resigned (as he did before the opening bell) and decided to call it a night. You said knocked senseless... apparently he had enough sense left to get up and indicate he'd had enough.

As for comparing Kessler with Hopkins... well that kind of BS speaks for itself.
okay, "knocked senseless" was a tad over the top. But I doubt he was in much condition to carry on.

I agree, Beyer has never shown any inclination to unify. Too much of that in boxing. He actually turned Kessler down around the time that Calzaghe-Lacy was signed.

Comparing Kessler to Hopkins: well, I didn't say he fights like Hopkins. However, I will say at this stage in his career, he has been given a chance to do something that took Hopkins till he was 35, and that's to start wiping out the 'other' champions.

Kessler was just as emphatic winning the first belt (v Siaca) as Hopkins was in the Mercado rematch. & the Dane was equally commanding in his uniifcation.

Hopkins outclassing Joppy, Tito, & Holmes was a bit special. So i will credit Kessler with the same. Based on the last 4 showings, he is starting to look a cut above the other fighters in his division.

Kessler is in a very strong division. Hopkins - through no fault of his own - was in quite a weak and anonymous one. That puts it in some perspective.
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Post by Autobarn »

pundit wrote:
Taki... wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote: How do you know Beyer didn't go to win? Just because Kessler harrasses him with the jab. In other words, because he lost to a better fighter, he came to lose.

Beyer is a slow starter, but he was given no respite. Kessler threw outstanding jabs at im to hurt him, break his rhythm, and take away any ambition he entered the ring with. In short, he beat Beyer before Beyer could even get started.

Kessler is an excellent fighter. Many ppl were picking him to have real struggles with Beyer. He demolishes a fellow title holder, and then gets no credit for stopping a quality fighter.

Beyer took a big right hand. On the canvas, he was stunned and was too disorientated to carry on. I didn't say knocked cold.


Ultimately, Kessler has gone after a fellow title holder and won in one sided fashion. That's all that can be expected of modern day world champions. & that's exactly what the great Hopkins did, went after everyone & beat them out of sight.

Kessler has wanted fights with Beyer, Calzaghe and Lacy for ages. Yet no one wants to fight him.
There's no doubt Kessler was better than Beyer, but the fact remains Beyer did not turn up at that fight looking to win. Beyer has NEVER shown any ambition to unify titles in the past, now suddenly, when he's in heavy decline, he changes the habits of a life time by heading for hostile territory to fight superior opposition for big payday... hmmmmm.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Beyer was in heavy decline, and neither that Beyer didn't want to win. If so he would ahve run from Kessler. But incontrat, Beyer tried in vain to get inside, couldn't find a way past Kessler's jab, and when he tried to force it -- buuum.

So Beyer simply ran into a better fighter. The above trash talk is wishful thinking by folks who want to talk down the significance of Kessler's win.
well said

I think there was genuine ambition in Beyer's fighting Kessler. Like when he went to England to fight Woodhall.

I doubt he wanted the lasting image of him being sitting on the floor after a Kessler right cross.
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Post by pundit »

viciousmaussa wrote:well said

I think there was genuine ambition in Beyer's fighting Kessler. Like when he went to England to fight Woodhall.

I doubt he wanted the lasting image of him being sitting on the floor after a Kessler right cross.
Well, Beyer said himself that money was partly the reason why he took this fight and went to Denmark. His coach also said that they would have prefered to fight Calzaghe, as they considered Kessler the division's most dangerous man. But then Calzaghe allegedly couldn't fight on October 14.

This said, Beyer is enough of a pro to give this his best shot. He surely would have liked to get the super-unification fight with Calzaghe thereafter, or a big money fight as unified 168 champ at 175. But his best shot wasn't good enough.
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Post by Autobarn »

Taki... wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote:Taylor being a top 5 p4p is absolute bullshit.That he held his own in those 3 fights suggests he has the POTENTIAL to be a top 5 p4p.

We haven't seen him in with any punchers or particularly fresh MIDDLEWEIGHTS yet.

Kessler has been dominating good fighters for the past two years. He unified two belts, has barely lost any rounds, holds 3 defenses & has wins over 6 titlists. In his past 4 fights he has bested 2 former, and 2 current titlists, and has lost a total of 4 rounds.

He has a brilliant jab, which he uses to dominate most opponents, he hasn't scraped the barrel for opponents Calzaghe-style, & is willing to take hard fights. i.e. we can believe he will fight Andrade, Mundine & Bute in succession.

In his first title fight, he wasn't even in any publication's world top 10, yet he dominated Siaca (who fought on level terms with one of Calzaghe's 'career-defining' foes Mitchell) as if he was a veteran! In his last title fight, he was dominant in a unification.

I certainly think he is, or nearly is, in the top ten p4p.
I don't have Taylor in my top 5, but plenty of people do. As for not seeing Taylor in with punchers or fresh MW's... so what? He survived 24 rounds with the top man at 175 rather well. In fact he did rather well over 36 rounds with two top 10 P4p fighters.
Kessler has been dominating decent fighters... only Mundine could be rated as 'good'. And even his stock is vastly over-rated, based as it is, on losing to Kessler... which seem to self perpetuate the OTT hype surrounding both fighters.

Yeah Kessler hasn't 'scraped the barrel'... the 35 year old Eric Lucas was a fantasticly ambitious defence.

As for rating Siaca as a great win... more power to you. And dominating fighters who turn up to lose isn't massively impressive.

As for Kessler being top 10 p4p! Better than Mayweather, Wright, Pacquiao, Barrera, Taylor, Hatton, John, Vazquez, Marquez, DLH, Castillo, JMM, Hopkins... based on what? I think a little more than Manny Siaca and ancients like Lucas and Beyer are required before he's in that company.
Stop putting words in my mouth, dimwit.

Lucas wasn't great. He was decent, and decent is better than anything Calzaghe faced from 2004 through to early 06.

Did I say Siaca was a "great win"? it was a very accomplished win, for a young challenger. Like I say, Siaca was unlucky vs Mitchell. Yet Mitchell was Calzaghe's best win, before Lacy.

As to Taylor: yes he held his own with two men with massive bodies of work. But that doesn't make Taylor's body of work massive. But he's fought mostly junior middles and will do for his next fight.

Ha! Hopkins wasn't at 175, when Taylor 'beat' him, was he? Hopkins looks so much stronger and healthier at 175.

The p4p question: being a top ten wouldn't put him above all those. It would put him above the top 15-20 sorts.

In a nutshell, Kessler has been dominant against GOOD fighters. That makes him very good in my eyes. Your attempts to downgrade his foes are a bit desperate.
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Post by SticknMove »

viciousmaussa wrote:
pundit wrote:
Taki... wrote: There's no doubt Kessler was better than Beyer, but the fact remains Beyer did not turn up at that fight looking to win. Beyer has NEVER shown any ambition to unify titles in the past, now suddenly, when he's in heavy decline, he changes the habits of a life time by heading for hostile territory to fight superior opposition for big payday... hmmmmm.
There is no evidence whatsoever that Beyer was in heavy decline, and neither that Beyer didn't want to win. If so he would ahve run from Kessler. But incontrat, Beyer tried in vain to get inside, couldn't find a way past Kessler's jab, and when he tried to force it -- buuum.

So Beyer simply ran into a better fighter. The above trash talk is wishful thinking by folks who want to talk down the significance of Kessler's win.
well said

I think there was genuine ambition in Beyer's fighting Kessler. Like when he went to England to fight Woodhall.

I doubt he wanted the lasting image of him being sitting on the floor after a Kessler right cross.
I don't want to get into the relative merits of whether Calzaghe or Kessler is the best SMW or who would win if that fight comes off (which of course it absolutely should). But to suggest that Beyer went to Denmark to fight Kessler for reasons other than to bolster his retirement fund seems to me very naive.
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Post by pundit »

viciousmaussa wrote: Like I say, Siaca was unlucky vs Mitchell. Yet Mitchell was Calzaghe's best win, before Lacy.
Let's frame this that it doesn't get lost....
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Post by jamesmcdonnell »

pundit wrote:
Terence wrote:Taylor is a very good middleweight. Jumping to SM and taking on a a top guy in his first fight will be a big ask, to his eternal credit I imagine if the call comes Taylor will give it a bash.
This would be poor career planning for Taylor. The fella is young and hasn't been at the highest level for that long.

He should first establish himself as the clear #1 at 160 and gain experience in the process - give a refight to Winky, fight a couple of other strong challengers, say Abraham or Sturm. Thereafter he could step up to 168, win a belt there, and then challenge the man at 168 (who will probably be Kessler at the time) -- if he wishes. Similar to how Tito did it when he went to 160. This said, 168 is generally less interesting and has a lower reputation than 175 or 160, so perhaps he should just use it as a stepping stone a la RJJ.
I agree to an extent, there are still some interesting, if not quite compelling fights to be made at 160 (Miranda, Abraham, Winky rematch if it ever happens etc.), but I think Taylor is the type to take a gamble, even if his backers aren't. Taylor was pretty inexperienced to be taking on Hopkins, and to his credit, whether he should have won or not, he made a compelling argument for taking the old mans titles, more than any of the other middleweights around had done.

I think that a lot will depend on whether they perceive Calzaghe as being on the slide, certianly i think Lacy's backers mistakenly thought he was, as did many of us based on his lacklustre showings against the likes of Salem.

However, Taylor is definetly a big middlweight, I don't know how he makes 160, he looks more like a 175 lber in the ring and does look to me to be the bigger man that Calzaghe.

However, anyone saying that Calzaghe beating Taylor in any way equates to DLH beating floyd is smoking some serious shit.

Oscar is a future hall of famer, and of his era, deservedly so. Mayweather is THE top man in boxing, at least in terms of skills and talent. Oscar will be dropping in weight, taking on a younger, fresher, and more talented (in my opinion) man. At a catchweight, it's a big ask for Oscar.

If Oscar loses, then it's not big deal, he's an old fighter who is trying to summon up magic to beat Floyd, who is right on his game right now.

If however he wins at say 150, then you have to perhaps accept that Oscar really is something a bit special, because Floyd hasn't really looked like losing aside from a relatively close call against Castillo, which was overplayed.

If Calzaghe beats Taylor, it doesn't prove a great deal, as Taylor is only just becoming a dominant force in his own division, let alone some sort of belt hopping superstar.

If Calzaghe is still around in 18 months time, and Taylor has fought another 3-4 times at MW and really proven his dominance, it's a more significant fight, but even then, Taylor would have to go some way to be anything like a comparison for Mayweather.

Hopkins got his P4P props by virtue of sticking around so long and the Tito win, and the fact that after that he kept on winning. Taylor has two creditable but debatable decisions over Hopkins, and a draw with a light middlweight to his name, hardly the stuff of legend yet is it?
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Post by Autobarn »

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Taki... wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote:where's your proof of that? A lot of fighters will have no answer for Kessler's jab.

Did you read 'Dougie's Mailbag', which said Beyer basically quit? Or did you watch the full fight, in which Markus got dominated, battered by a left jab & then knocked senseless with a right?

Warren had a chance to bring Beyer over. Why did he apparently insist that the fight be in September, a date that Beyer couldn't make? Beyer needed October...& then Calzaghr ends up fighting Bika in October??

Would you have given Calzaghe credit for beating Beyer, I wonder?

I know one good reason why Calzaghe never went after a Beyer fight. He was ringside when his pal Richie Woodhall got knocked over two or three times by the German.
Well, for a start Beyer went to Denmark! Secondly, Beyer had been avoiding his mandatory (because he knew he'd lose). And thirdly, I saw the fight! Beyer looked like he'd lost before he started and upon being KD'd showed no ambition, fight, or passion. Kessler did his job, but Beyer was only there to get his pre-retirement payday. Beyer wasn't 'knocked senseless' he was solidly Kd'd... hyperbole is not a valid argument.

Warren didn't bring Beyer over because he wants a payday. Beyer, despite being a long reigning champion, is not a draw anywhere but Germany (and, to a degree, Denmark). Frank has his sights set on US TV money, which neither Beyer not Kessler will help with.

No, Calzaghe would have gotten as much (or as little) credit as Kessler for beating the cheque collecting version of Beyer.

Calzaghe didn't go after Beyer because 1. fighting in Germany, no matter how good you are, is a huge gamble. And 2. Warren would never have paid Beyer enough to leave Germany.
As for watching Beyer KD Woodhall twice... terrifying. Almost as scary as watching Glenn Catley outbox and TKO Beyer. No wonder Calzaghe kept clear... :roll:
I'd concur with that analysis, Beyer was clearly looking to cash out bigtime, I'm sure this will be borne out by the fact he won't fight ever again. Beyer had a belt, and realised that if he wanted a nice payday, he'd better get on with it before he got beaten in a crappy mandatory.

Beyer had not looked concinving for a long time now.

Sure, Kessler got the job done, but It's lunacy to suggest that Kessler's win over Beyer puts him on pedastal.

Calzaghe and Kessler SHOULD however get on with it and make terms for a fight, I don't believe Joe is scared of Kessler, but I won't be surprised if he deems the terms of engagement unsuitable and goes hunting elsewhere.

One positive though, is that I don't think Taylor's handlers are ready to put him in with Calzaghe whilst he can continue staking his claim at Middlweight, and nobody else seems either interested, or interests Calzaghe. Hopkins isn't interested, Johnson isn't a big fight, Tarver got beat, Winky doesn't seem to show any interest, so it looks like more title defences for now or fight Kessler.

If Joe fights Kessler, there's a potentially huge payday for a Taylor fight waiting in the wings, because beating a unified champ is certainly going to appeal, and Taylor has time to fit at least two fights in before it.

what I don't want to see is Joe pissing away the remainder of his career fannying about fighting scrubs like Bika whlist talking cobblers about big fights that aint' gonna happen.

Blame Warren all you like, but fact is, Joe inevitably, has gotten what he has asked for in his career, and I think it pretty self satisfied. Had he made the big push for fights in the US or against the elite fighters of his day, I'm sure Warren would have tried to make them a lot harder than he has.
concur with whatever analysis you want. But there are some fighters that you refuse to credit: Winky and of course Kessler are 2 of them.

Beyer had looked pretty convincing . 2004: 2x fights with Sanavia, a solid fighter. 1 loss was seen as a robbery, & Beyer 1 punch KO'd him in the rematch. He also fought Nishiziwa, who was a poor choice of opponent; 2005: beats Danny Green in a rematch, boxes masterfully to shutout Omar Sheika. (The same Sheika who had Lacy badly hurt. The same Lacy who was highly regarded before losing to Calzaghe).

This year Beyer looked fit in his fight with Colajanni. Then he looked bad in the 4 rounds against Bika. But these were dreadful choices of opponent. No one would look good running after Colajanni, who knew he shouldn't have been there. & we've seen how bad Bika can make someone look.

2004 and 05 show us that Beyer was in no decline. In fact he was boxing better than ever, perhaps. This year, he hasn't looked hot, but he fought one marathon runner, one dirty git with immense physical strength, and one outstanding champion who bashed him up.
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Post by lvlarc »

I'll ask again, Vicious can I please see your top 6 P4P so I can see for myself how much of Taylor's claim to atop 5 spot is "absolute bullshit"
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Post by Autobarn »

lvlarc_uk wrote:I'll ask again, Vicious can I please see your top 6 P4P so I can see for myself how much of Taylor's claim to atop 5 spot is "absolute bullshit"
I didn't know you asked earlier. I don't do p4p lists.

But a strong case can be made for putting these men above him: Lorenzo Parra, Masamori Tokuyama, Marco Antonio Barrera, Manny Pacquiao, Winky Wright, Floyd Mayweather.

In the next 12 months, the likes of Kessler, Guzman, Darchinyan, Adamek, Casamayor, Juan Diaz, Cotto/Quintana, Margarito, Hozumi Hasegawa, Caballero could make huge strides and conceivably overtake him, or at least come very close. One very big win from any one of these guys. Let's wait & see what happens.

I'll keep my reservations about these, even though they are excellent fighters: Calzaghe (too unreliable in taking big fights), JM Marquez (fights keep falling through; he's not regaining that momentum at all), Rafael Marquez (when is he going to face someone as good as Tim Austin again??), Morales (what does he have left?), Castillo/Corrales (will they be anything like their old selves, after abusing their bodies so long), Israel Vazquez (on great form last 3 outings, but he looks too easy to hit to be around much longer), Hopkins (probably retired)

Like I say, Taylor CAN get to a top 5. He has the power, athleticism, the hunger/expectations on his shoulders to take important fights, and he'd proved he's on the same level with 2 men with major bodies of work. But he needs to get some impressive wins outside of that. Vs genuine middleweights, please. I know you can do it, Jermain!
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Post by mattyp151 »

If Ronald Wright is a top 5 p4per, I feel you have to include Jermain, seeing as he went dead even with Winky. Not to mention, this all coming after taking on the #1 p4p fighter in the world twice in a row, and winning both. It's crazy when Kassim Ouma is a step down.
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Post by lvlarc »

So Taylor beats one certified ATG in Hopkins, not once but twice. Then fights Winky, (possible ATG) to an even keel for 12 rounds. Both of which were top 5 P4P. Now keep in mind that these 2 (Hopkins/Winky) were easily the best opposition available at 160. Seriously name me one boxer that has had 3 big fights in succession against such top quality? You'd have to go back a good few years, Toney, Hagler?

How can you possibly have Masamori Tokuyama ahead of Taylor! What logic? He got stopped in just 3 fights back in the 1st round, and you put him ahead of Taylor? WTF? Same goes for Parra.

So apparently you'd rate Taylor higher had he beaten GOOD opposition impressively, rather than just beating GREAT/Very GOOD opposition.

BTW people can rate Taylor 5-10, tho very few do..but to say top 5 is absolute bullshit is just nonsense.
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Post by nickd »

Taylor is definitely top 5 pound for pound no question.
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Post by Smit »

viciousmaussa wrote: But a strong case can be made for putting these men above him: Lorenzo Parra, Masamori Tokuyama, Marco Antonio Barrera, Manny Pacquiao, Winky Wright, Floyd Mayweather.
Hasn't Tokuyama retired anyway?
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Post by Autobarn »

Mattyp151 wrote:If Ronald Wright is a top 5 p4per, I feel you have to include Jermain, seeing as he went dead even with Winky. Not to mention, this all coming after taking on the #1 p4p fighter in the world twice in a row, and winning both. It's crazy when Kassim Ouma is a step down.
That is one way of seeing it. But Wright has a body of woek that is far deeper. When Taylor was beating on overmatched junior middles, Wright was beating some top class men. For me, that is the difference.
pundit
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Post by pundit »

viciousmaussa wrote:
Mattyp151 wrote:If Ronald Wright is a top 5 p4per, I feel you have to include Jermain, seeing as he went dead even with Winky. Not to mention, this all coming after taking on the #1 p4p fighter in the world twice in a row, and winning both. It's crazy when Kassim Ouma is a step down.
That is one way of seeing it. But Wright has a body of woek that is far deeper. When Taylor was beating on overmatched junior middles, Wright was beating some top class men. For me, that is the difference.
Plus, Winky is the naturally smaller man.
Autobarn
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Post by Autobarn »

lvlarc_uk wrote:So Taylor beats one certified ATG in Hopkins, not once but twice. Then fights Winky, (possible ATG) to an even keel for 12 rounds. Both of which were top 5 P4P. Now keep in mind that these 2 (Hopkins/Winky) were easily the best opposition available at 160. Seriously name me one boxer that has had 3 big fights in succession against such top quality? You'd have to go back a good few years, Toney, Hagler?

How can you possibly have Masamori Tokuyama ahead of Taylor! What logic? He got stopped in just 3 fights back in the 1st round, and you put him ahead of Taylor? WTF? Same goes for Parra.

So apparently you'd rate Taylor higher had he beaten GOOD opposition impressively, rather than just beating GREAT/Very GOOD opposition.

BTW people can rate Taylor 5-10, tho very few do..but to say top 5 is absolute bullshit is just nonsense.
Why are Hopkins and WW so wellr egarded? because they have major bodies of work that they built up themselves. Taylor has fought them near the end of their careers. These fights got him up to elite level. What he does next can justify him a top 5 ranking.

No one has stopped Parra, or even beaten him. I don't know what you're on about. Parra went to Puerto Rico in 2004, outclassed the elite Eric Morel, & defended 2x on the road. In 2005, he defended on the road 3x. Had his big fight with Vasquez happened this year (it was called off), Parra would be a candidate for #1 p4p. Let's not forget Roberto Vasquez was the #1 junior fly and an excellent fighter in his own right. Parra is the finest at fly, but he hasn't fought this year due to injury.

Tokuyama: WBC super flyweight champion for 6 years. Yes he lost to Kawashima in the 1st rd, but he also holds 2x wins over him. He has been champ for six years, nine defenses, most of which were vs QUALITY FOES. You hear about Kirilov & Navarro getting robbed away from home, but no one talks about their fights with Tokuyama, where they were legitimiately beaten. How many champions today fight very good fighters, time in, time out? Kawashima 3x, In Joo Choo 2x, Penalosa 2x, Kirilov, Navarro etc etc.


"So apparently you'd rate Taylor higher had he beaten GOOD opposition impressively, rather than just beating GREAT/Very GOOD opposition."

Bit of both, please! Because he has looked great against no hopers, and has scraped by the skin of his teeth vs the elite. So for the sake of balance, I would LOVE to see JT dominate some good foes. Or some VG foes who would emphasise his qualities.
Last edited by Autobarn on 01 Nov 2006, 15:41, edited 1 time in total.
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