Your opinion of Joe Calzaghe's willingness to fight the best

[jamesmcdonnell]

Yes, however, the two men were huge ticket sellers, and thus there was a huge incentive.

Calzaghe has never been a draw on their scale, and Catley and Woodhall certainly weren't, hence why I think it unlikely these fights could have been easily made.

[Autobarn]

Whilst it is undeniable that Calzaghe has almost certainly passed up a lot of opportunities that came his way, I think we shouldn't inflate Kessler's achievements too much.

His record is far from exceptional, and his recent victories, whilst generally convincing were not against unassailable opposition. I do believe that Beyer came to collect a cheque, and we already knew the limitations as well as talents of Siaca, Lucas and Mundine, so therefore Kessler is not the SMW collossus some would make out here.

Calzaghe has sadly pissed a lot of his career away fighting crap mandatories, but his overall body of work is not too bad and I think he's certainly proven more than Kessler.

I personally think Calzaghe would beat Kessler, but I'd much rather find out for sure, and if Calzaghe chooses not to fight the Dane, then he deserves to be criticised. Too many opportunities have gone begging, and it's time Calzaghe realised, if he cares of course, that he doesn't have long left to cement his legacy.

My guess is that Joe will be content to be remembered as an undefeated WBO champ who won the IBF title and then hopped on to get a belt at 175, or beat a middleweight great in making (if that is indeed what Taylor is).

Well, he's trying to go in against unassailable opposition.

Even you gave Beyer a great chance to beat Kessler. Kessler destroys him &, oh, right, it was because Beyer didn't try to win, LOL


"Mundine's limitations" - Mundine has been a pro only for 5 or 6 years - with no amateur background. He was able to jump into world class very early on - with mixed results. Beating Echols & Soliman, losing to Ottke & Siaca. 2 of those fights came in his first year as a pro. Since that Siaca loss, he has matured. He put up a superb effort against Kessler, and has just schooled Danny Green.

Boxing these days is so obsessed with perfect clean records. Some fighters learn from their defeats.

Right now, Mundine is learning brilliantly from Roy Jones Sr and is one of the better fighters in one of the strongest ever 168-lb weight classes.

I say that out of respect for Mundine, not to put Kessler on a pedestal.


If you go the "he wuz exposed" route -which I hate to do - then I guess everyone that Calzaghe beat was limited. Reid lost to Malinga, & was put in hospital by Cherifi. See, it's so easy just to pick the negative side, & ignore anything good that they did. Because Lacy couldn't handle the handspeed & variety, I guess Lacy is too limited.

It's a viscious cycle, and there is no balance in it.

[Autobarn]

If Calzaghe had beaten Siaca, Lucas and Mundine

Well he hasn't.

we'd still be hearing it was subpar opposition.

So give me an honest answer -- has Calzaghe's opposition in the past 10 years been sub-par or not?

Here is my take: if you say "yes" you are a Calzaghe fan but critical of Warren.
If you say "no" you are the opposite of a Calzaghe fan -- you defend the guy who is mishandling Calzaghe's career, Frankie Warren.

People can be as 'excited' by Kessler as they like, but pretending his recent record is out-standing, or superior to Calzaghe's is just plain hyperbole.

It's not hyperbole but a FACT. OR has Calzaghe EVER fought four current or former 168 champions in a row?

Come on, put the stuff on the table: WHERE, WHEN and WHOM. No coulda shoulda woulda. If you can, fine. If you can't - sorry, the facts are simply against you.

But you would have an easy way out: you could blame all of this on Frankie Warren (although the quesiton would remain why Calzaghe is still with this guy).

I actually give these people their dues

CALZAGHE: Reid, Woodhall, Eubank, Lacy, Brewer, Mitchell

KESSLER: JC Green, Mundine, Siaca, Lucas, Beyer

Lacy & Mundine were DEFINITELY on the way up. I agree with you that Mundine is superior to Lacy, right now.


However, Calzaghe would never fight 4 decent-good fighters in a row. He would have at least a year, maybe 2, between such opponents.

This has been going on from around 1997-2003. But between 2003 (end) and 2006 (before March), he fought nobody of worth. When he beat Lacy this March, he has now gone 8 months without fighting anyone good. His next fight is Feb. It was going to be a "super fight", but now will probably a bog standard mandatory at best.

Stieglitz is most likely (IBF). Because the WBO top man, Tatvosyan (former Eastman opponent) is tied up fighting Bute.


TAKI: Fair enough, Kessler can't be credited for Andrade, Mundine II, & Bute yet. However, my point is that you can believe he would face these people. We already know that Calzaghe turned down Andrade.

[lvlarc]

He was able to jump into world class very early on - with mixed results. Beating Echols & Soliman, losing to Ottke & Siaca

Soliman wasn't world class back then and most people I've spoken to think Mundine was lucky to get the decision.

[Taki...]

At this stage of his career there is no mileage in Calzaghe fighting Andrade. allegedly has his eyes on US TV money and it's doubtful Andrade would have gotten anymore exposure than Bika (plus Bika probably came at half the price of Andrade).

[Autobarn]

He was able to jump into world class very early on - with mixed results. Beating Echols & Soliman, losing to Ottke & Siaca

Soliman wasn't world class back then and most people I've spoken to think Mundine was lucky to get the decision.

When I see the fight I'll let you know. One thing is hard to dispute, that he was matched tough early. I still expect big things of Mundine, and I'm intrigued by the possible move down to 160. Of all the super middles this year, there were 3 who put in special performances: Calzaghe - vs Lacy; Kessler - vs Beyer; Mundine - vs Green.

[pundit]

At this stage of his career there is no mileage in Calzaghe fighting Andrade. allegedly allegedly has his eyes on US TV money and it's doubtful Andrade would have gotten anymore exposure than Bika (plus Bika probably came at half the price of Andrade).

More likely: Frankie Warren has his eyes on Kessler, freezes in panic, and looks for a route to escape.

[Taki...]

At this stage of his career there is no mileage in Calzaghe fighting Andrade. allegedly allegedly allegedly has his eyes on US TV money and it's doubtful Andrade would have gotten anymore exposure than Bika (plus Bika probably came at half the price of Andrade).

More likely: Frankie Warren has his eyes on Kessler, freezes in panic, and looks for a route to escape.

That's just obtuse. Whatever Kessler maybe, he is not a more saleable opponent in the US than Taylor, Wright, Hopkins or Jones.

[pundit]

At this stage of his career there is no mileage in Calzaghe fighting Andrade. allegedly allegedly allegedly allegedly has his eyes on US TV money and it's doubtful Andrade would have gotten anymore exposure than Bika (plus Bika probably came at half the price of Andrade).

More likely: Frankie Warren has his eyes on Kessler, freezes in panic, and looks for a route to escape.

That's just obtuse. Whatever Kessler maybe, he is not a more saleable opponent in the US than Taylor, Wright, Hopkins or Jones.

Of course not. Opponents to who Calzaghe could lose are not saleable.
Strange this wasn't a consideration when they took on Bika....

[pundit]

Cast your vote............

Interim result: 76 percent of the posters in the Brit (!) forum think Calzaghe as a champ is nothing special, and 69 percent believe his competition has been sub-par...

Doesn't look good as regards Calzaghe's place in the boxing history books. Seems Frankie Warren has to do a bit more work to convince the boxing world outside lvlarc and MM....

[lvlarc]

Only Pundit could come to such an illogical conclusion.

YAWN!

[Axe]

Pundit quit comparing apples with oranges. Fact is Taylor is a big middleweight and could make 168 with ease. Taylor is atop 5 P4P'r

If Oscar beats Mayweather, it will be a huge win for him.

I asked a simple question.

If Calzaghe fights Taylor instead of Kessle rnobody should complain. As it stands Jermain has proven to be the better fighter (even though he is a middleweight).

[Max Molyneux]

Well it would be better to fight the man who beat Hopkins rather than fight Hopkins himself.

[Taki...]

Personally I think Taylor is a bigger fight than Kessler... by quite a long way. I doubt anyone (Pundit excluded) would complain.

[Max Molyneux]

Well Kessler has been a Light Middleweight in the past.

[dumdane]

Personally I think Taylor is a bigger fight than Kessler... by quite a long way. I doubt anyone (Pundit excluded) would complain.

I would.

And there's a lot of ppl - also outside longtime Kessler fans - who say that any fight but Kessler just won't cut it for Calzaghe this time around.

Just look through the different polls done on the subject at the various international forums. They all pretty much reach the same conclusion. Kessler is by far the prefered opponent for Calzaghe.

Only group who consistantly argue against it are the die-hard Calzaghe fans.
Makes you wonder what they are so worried about...

[dumdane]

Well Kessler has been a Light Middleweight in the past.

Yeah that's funny really.
Calzaghe usually likes to feed on former middles and lower. The "fresher" at SMW the better.
Guess that's why he still prefers Taylor, Bika or whoever.

[Max Molyneux]

When did Calzaghe turn down Andrade? [/quote]

[Autobarn]

When did Calzaghe turn down Andrade?

[/quote]post Lacy. His wouldn't approve him as a potential opponent for the 'significant' midyear bout. I can't remember who it was that mentioned it; could've been BBN.

[Autobarn]

Pundit quit comparing apples with oranges. Fact is Taylor is a big middleweight and could make 168 with ease. Taylor is atop 5 P4P'r

If Oscar beats Mayweather, it will be a huge win for him.

I asked a simple question.

If Calzaghe fights Taylor instead of Kessle rnobody should complain. As it stands Jermain has proven to be the better fighter (even though he is a middleweight).

I disagree. Taylor hasn't proven himself better than Wright yet.

Not easy to gauge the two. i.e. Taylor has been dead level with 2 elites (IMO). Whereas Kessler has been a level above good fighters. Chances are Kessler would be on very close terms with an p4p elite (i.e. Calzaghe), and that Taylor would be dominant vs 'merely' good opponents.

In a way, I would hate it for Taylor to keep on fighting disputed decisions, vs men with big bodies of work. He's young, fast & powerful and needs to have a few dominant wins for his confidence. Build up his own ouevre, by owning the fighters in his class. To make him feel "no on can beat me" & to make powerful statements to the fans.

On the other hand, I would hate for Kessler to get ignored by the top talents. But he can keep on defending his titles, and he does have challenges like Andrade (underrated, for me) & Mundine (improving, looking very good). I hope this Canadian venture comes off, because Bute would probably end up getting a shot.

If Kessler can keep on fighting those guys & winning, and if taylor will take on all those attractive names at 160/dropping down from 168, I will be happy.

Meanwhile, Calzaghe can have the Stieglitzes and Tatevosyans (at worst), or the Titos, Tarvers & Johnsons (at best), LOL

Kessler, in 2 years as champion, as proved himself just as good as Calzaghe. & Calzaghe's rep took nine years to make.

[Axe]

Well Kessler has been a Light Middleweight in the past.

Early twenties, people still grow. Maybe not vertically but a fighter will naturally fill out, in terms of muscle, until he turns 24/25.

[Axe]

Pundit quit comparing apples with oranges. Fact is Taylor is a big middleweight and could make 168 with ease. Taylor is atop 5 P4P'r

If Oscar beats Mayweather, it will be a huge win for him.

I asked a simple question.

If Calzaghe fights Taylor instead of Kessle rnobody should complain. As it stands Jermain has proven to be the better fighter (even though he is a middleweight).

I disagree. Taylor hasn't proven himself better than Wright yet.

Not easy to gauge the two. i.e. Taylor has been dead level with 2 elites (IMO). Whereas Kessler has been a level above good fighters. Chances are Kessler would be on very close terms with an p4p elite (i.e. Calzaghe), and that Taylor would be dominant vs 'merely' good opponents.

In a way, I would hate it for Taylor to keep on fighting disputed decisions, vs men with big bodies of work. He's young, fast & powerful and needs to have a few dominant wins for his confidence. Build up his own ouevre, by owning the fighters in his class. To make him feel "no on can beat me" & to make powerful statements to the fans.

On the other hand, I would hate for Kessler to get ignored by the top talents. But he can keep on defending his titles, and he does have challenges like Andrade (underrated, for me) & Mundine (improving, looking very good). I hope this Canadian venture comes off, because Bute would probably end up getting a shot.

If Kessler can keep on fighting those guys & winning, and if taylor will take on all those attractive names at 160/dropping down from 168, I will be happy.

Meanwhile, Calzaghe can have the Stieglitzes and Tatevosyans (at worst), or the Titos, Tarvers & Johnsons (at best), LOL

Kessler, in 2 years as champion, as proved himself just as good as Calzaghe. & Calzaghe's rep took nine years to make.

The only thing I can really agree with you on is that Winky should have gotten the win against Taylor--or rather, that they should definitely fight a rematch, and that after that, Taylor should have a couple of easy fights for his confidence.

Other than that, Taylor has beaten P4P fighters (and earned a draw against WW), so P4P he is worlds ahead of Kessler. In terms of the US market this would be a fantastic matchup for Calzaghe, and probably better for him in terms of legacy than Kessler right now.

Of course, Taylor is a middleweight so people would take a bit away from that fight if JC were to win. But that doesn't change the fact that Mikkel has a lot of work to do before being considered in Taylor's class, P4P.

Kessler has not acheived what Calzaghe has, despite JC's career being rather disappointing. He still has a ways to go.

All just IMO.

I also disagree on Andrade being underrated. I thought he was pretty bad considering his record when I saw him fight Otis Grant, and now that I saw the Richard "alien" Grant mismatch (a fight set up to make Andrade look GOOD) I think even less of him. He has no defence, no footwork, and no outside game. He plods straight in with his chin up in the air and instantly gives up his reach advantage. Despite the fight lasting barely two minutes, Andrade also managed to get caught flush by a telegraphed left hook right on the chin (first ten seconds).

[The Durable Dane]

A champion who has avoided some big fights!

[pundit]

Only Pundit could come to such an illogical conclusion.

YAWN!

From the inside of FWarren's digestive system, otherwise obvious conclusions look necessarily "illogical"

I see the poll stabilizes at:

Three out of four: "Calzaghe as champ -- nothing special"
Two out of three: "Calzaghe as champ -- ducker"

[Max Molyneux]

No one can even prove he's ducked Pundit so ha.

Anyone who thinks he's nothing special is no something!

Plus Kessler's got another injury.

Plus he's holding the true champs belt and the WBC are Mexican biased.