baldomir doing well

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Baldo as lineal champ - SFW?

He was an accidental champ like Omar Nino Romero and Carlos Maussa.

He made the most of his unexpected and undeserved shot when the reigning champ completely lost his marbles!

He was losing to Margarito's next opponent, Clottey, until Clottey was DQ'd.

Shall we make a big deal out of Marg-Clottey? Maybe we should because it looks like a real fight.

Also, every Undisputed' welter king bypassed Margarito. How undisputed can they be??

But Floyd beat both of the last linear champs back to back. So whether you though Judah or Baldomir was the best, Floyd beat them both. Margarito is a fringe contender who may be something but can obviously be outboxed by the likes of Santos

If Margaritos such an impressive force why has he turned down fights with: Williams, Mitchell, Judah, Winky Wright, Collazo........Margarito doesn't want to face a top Welter/JMW other than Floyd.

[Autobarn]

How are you so sure that it was Margarito turning down EVERYONE? You seem as sure of that that he has beaten NO ONE of worth.

As if it's in Margario's best interests to not fight these guys, LOL.

Judah asked for a fight with him, for the first time a few weeks ago. Winky didn't bite at the offer, but I'm glad as I don't want to see a drained Winky, nor do I want to see Margarito in a nightmare scenario at 154, vs a better lefty than Santos.

I don 't see how he has "turned down Paul Williams". He's taken an equally hard fight with Clottey (another top 10 welter), and then he can take care of his mandatory.

Like I say, he's really going to let himself get stripped. Really in his best interests. Then it'll be near impossible to find opponents, never mind market him, yep, makes real sense, that one.


Margarito is no fringe guy. Look at those good wins vs Diaz, Cintron, Lewis, Benitez (this guy is on a bit of a run; has 2 wins over Richard Williams, interestingly). A lot of ppl hold the Santos fights against him - 2x fights done in by head clashes and it's like 'that's it, you deserve nothing', haha.


Tszyu did fight all the guys at his weight - all the genuine peers Judah, Mitchell, Gonzalez. Mosley made a pit stop before DLH; so did DLH, this was when Tszyu had been dethroned so that fight couldn't happen. Most of the guys you mention are welters; Tszyu was a career 140-pounder and he left no stone unturned aside from the WBO, Bailey/Corley who WERE FRINGE CONTENDERS.

Tszyu unified 140, by fighting the best 140-pounders. Why doesn't Mayweather do the same, up at 147? Too Risky? There are attractive fights up there.


Let's give Hatton some leeway. When Hatton fought Tszyu, Kostya's claim to the p4p throne was greater than Floyd's. Since beating Tszyu, every fight has been vs a top 10 fighter. Urango's title claims are as convincing as Baldo's/Romero's/Maussa's, but he's def top 10, and JL Castillo is next. personally, I cannot fault that.

[stujones]

Your very certain the Joshua "lost to Baldomir" Clottey is a top ten Welter.

Not in my books,

Mayweather,
Judah,
Margarito
Collazo
Quintana
Williams
Baldomir
Urkal
Cintron
Gatti

Thats not even considering the soon to be moving up Miguel Cotto or Ricky Hatton (who is soon to be moving back down). BTW, thats not necessarily the top ten in order. I imagine my inclusion of Gatti will get a mixed reception, but Thomas Damngaard was a top ten fighter independently and Clottey hasn't beaten anyone of Damgaards stature.... Gutierrez was untested (and that was a close run thing anway).

Mayweather gets criticised for beating Baldomir.... Margarito gets applauded for fighting a guy who lost to him.

Perhaps Calzaghe vs Bika wasn't such a bad fight after all.

[stujones]

Let's give Hatton some leeway. When Hatton fought Tszyu, Kostya's claim to the p4p throne was greater than Floyd's. Since beating Tszyu, every fight has been vs a top 10 fighter. Urango's title claims are as convincing as Baldo's/Romero's/Maussa's, but he's def top 10, and JL Castillo is next. personally, I cannot fault that.

Right first of all the P4P debate.

Yep, I agree Kostya should have been clearly ranked ahead of Mayweather in the Light Welter rankings at the time.... P4P, sorry disagree. Just as Kostya had dominated the Light Welterweight seen, Floyd had the Super Featherweights and Lightweight.... beating past, present and future champions in doing so. When you look at P4P ALL the factors should be considered.

Did Hatton's struggles at 147 affect his P4P status, no it didn't cause his P4P status was mainly gained at a different weight..... same with Floyd at the time. Sugar Ray Leonard never proved himself the best Light Heavyweight in the world, but his P4P standing was much better than his rival champions.

Okay, now onto who is the better champion between Urango and Baldomir. Sorry, you might think Baldomir is nothing but a club fighter (who beat your main man Clottey BTW), but he BEAT the main man in the devision (fairly in my book). Whether Judah was up for it or not, he still won.

Maussa BEAT Harris fairly, again Harris' preparation must be questioned but it was a fair win. However, unlike Judah - Harris was never the man.... Only A champion (never THE) cause Tszyu was injured. Urango got given an absolute gift (worse decision of the year) against an equally non worthy foe.... Major difference, 1) Baldomir won / Urango didn't. 2)Baldo beat THE man/ Urango didn't. 3) The man was also an outstanding boxer / Rabah isn't.

Again as for Urango being a top ten, its open to a little bit of debate - depending on who is considered a Light Welter, and who is considered retired.

These should all be ranked above him.
Mbaye, Witter, Tszyu, Hatton, Harris, Lazcano, Castillo, Cotto, Torres, Malignaggi, Corrales, Gatti, Kotelnik.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

How are you so sure that it was Margarito turning down EVERYONE? You seem as sure of that that he has beaten NO ONE of worth.

As if it's in Margario's best interests to not fight these guys, LOL.

Judah asked for a fight with him, for the first time a few weeks ago. Winky didn't bite at the offer, but I'm glad as I don't want to see a drained Winky, nor do I want to see Margarito in a nightmare scenario.

Margarito is no fringe guy. Look at those good wins vs Diaz, Cintron, Lewis, Benitez (this guy is on a bit of a run; has 2 wins over Richard Williams, interestingly). A lot of ppl hold the Santos fights against him - 2x fights done in by head clashes and it's like 'that's it, you deserve nothing', haha.


Tszyu did fight all the guys at his weight - all the genuine peers Judah, Mitchell, Gonzalez. Mosley made a pit stop before DLH; so did DLH, this was when Tszyu had been dethroned so that fight couldn't happen. Most of the guys you mention are welters; Tszyu was a career 140-pounder and he left no stone unturned aside from the WBO, Bailey/Corley who WERE FRINGE CONTENDERS.

Tszyu unified 140, by fighting the best 140-pounders. Why doesn't Mayweather do the same, up at 147? Too Risky? There are attractive fights up there.


Let's give Hatton some leeway. When Hatton fought Tszyu, Kostya's claim to the p4p throne was greater than Floyd's. Since beating Tszyu, every fight has been vs a top 10 fighter. Urango's title claims are as strong as Baldo's/Romero's/Maussa's, but he's def top 10, and JL Castillo is next. personally, I cannot fault that.

How do we know Marg/Arrum are turning down the fights - because they have. Fighters call him out and he ignores them and claims hes ducked. Williams calls him out wins mandatory position and gets ignored so Marg can face Clottey after previously fighting someone not worthy of a top30 place. Winky gave him a counter offer - a career high payday but Marg turned it down.

Why are you giving Hatton and Marg leway and coming down so hard on PBF? Lets remember Hatton could have fought PBF, Witter, , Margarito, Tyszu 2 in his last few fights but went for Maussa, Collazo, Urango. And wouldnt grant Collazo a rematch after nearly getting ko'd in the final round and promising the rematch.

Don't compare Maussa to Baldomir, Maussa was coming off a loss to Cotto, fluked past Harris and had no skills. Baldomir gritted wins against Gatti and Judah and been unbeaten for years. The Clottey fight was 7years ago and Baldo got the W.

Urango is a nobody who really lost his last fight - hes not top10. Hattons have been on par with Witters past 4 or possibly below that level.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Your very certain the Joshua "lost to Baldomir" Clottey is a top ten Welter.

Not in my books,

Mayweather,
Judah,
Margarito
Collazo
Quintana
Williams
Baldomir
Urkal
Cintron
Gatti

Thats not even considering the soon to be moving up Miguel Cotto or Ricky Hatton (who is soon to be moving back down). BTW, thats not necessarily the top ten in order. I imagine my inclusion of Gatti will get a mixed reception, but Thomas Damngaard was a top ten fighter independently and Clottey hasn't beaten anyone of Damgaards stature.... Gutierrez was untested (and that was a close run thing anway).

Mayweather gets criticised for beating Baldomir.... Margarito gets applauded for fighting a guy who lost to him.

Perhaps Calzaghe vs Bika wasn't such a bad fight after all.

Aswell as Hatton/Cotto, Mosley may also fight PBF at 147 and fought only 2 fights ago at 147. Technically Castillo is at 147 so you'd put him top10 and Mitchell and Julio would be around about my top10 around Clotteys level.

[Autobarn]

Your very certain the Joshua "lost to Baldomir" Clottey is a top ten Welter.

Not in my books,

Mayweather,
Judah,
Margarito
Collazo
Quintana
Williams
Baldomir
Urkal
Cintron
Gatti

Thats not even considering the soon to be moving up Miguel Cotto or Ricky Hatton (who is soon to be moving back down). BTW, thats not necessarily the top ten in order. I imagine my inclusion of Gatti will get a mixed reception, but Thomas Damngaard was a top ten fighter independently and Clottey hasn't beaten anyone of Damgaards stature.... Gutierrez was untested (and that was a close run thing anway).

Mayweather gets criticised for beating Baldomir.... Margarito gets applauded for fighting a guy who lost to him.

Perhaps Calzaghe vs Bika wasn't such a bad fight after all.

That's your view. Mine is that Clottey would smash Gatti, Damngood easily. I don't rate Urkal either.

I'm not putting Marg on a pedestal. I genuinely like welter. It has quality. If the top guys will all fight, it may have some charisma as well. Ppl might get polarised about these underrated pros the way that ppl were to Castillo & Corrales - if the right fights are made.

Reports that I read/heard say Satan was winning quite clearly against Hall of Famer Baldomir.

Clottey is finding it harder to get fights than Margarito. Give Margarito props for taking this well hard fight.

This could be a classic of the Who Needs Him club.

Only one MAJOR question mark that needs addressing about this match.

Clottey is a dirty fighter, who leads with the head. It could be another Santos type situation. is this fight more trouble than it's worth?


Stu, I was the only person to talk up Calzaghe-Bika. I admit to being 'knobhead' of the week - now I will turn to booze and LSD for my insights. I repent, and will bury my head in my hands every time Bika's name is mentioned. No need to agree with my badly wrong prediction!

[Autobarn]

Let's give Hatton some leeway. When Hatton fought Tszyu, Kostya's claim to the p4p throne was greater than Floyd's. Since beating Tszyu, every fight has been vs a top 10 fighter. Urango's title claims are as convincing as Baldo's/Romero's/Maussa's, but he's def top 10, and JL Castillo is next. personally, I cannot fault that.

Right first of all the P4P debate.

Yep, I agree Kostya should have been clearly ranked ahead of Mayweather in the Light Welter rankings at the time.... P4P, sorry disagree. Just as Kostya had dominated the Light Welterweight seen, Floyd had the Super Featherweights and Lightweight.... beating past, present and future champions in doing so. When you look at P4P ALL the factors should be considered.

Did Hatton's struggles at 147 affect his P4P status, no it didn't cause his P4P status was mainly gained at a different weight..... same with Floyd at the time. Sugar Ray Leonard never proved himself the best Light Heavyweight in the world, but his P4P standing was much better than his rival champions.

Okay, now onto who is the better champion between Urango and Baldomir. Sorry, you might think Baldomir is nothing but a club fighter (who beat your main man Clottey BTW), but he BEAT the main man in the devision (fairly in my book). Whether Judah was up for it or not, he still won.

Maussa BEAT Harris fairly, again Harris' preparation must be questioned but it was a fair win. However, unlike Judah - Harris was never the man.... Only A champion (never THE) cause Tszyu was injured. Urango got given an absolute gift (worse decision of the year) against an equally non worthy foe.... Major difference, 1) Baldomir won / Urango didn't. 2)Baldo beat THE man/ Urango didn't. 3) The man was also an outstanding boxer / Rabah isn't.

Again as for Urango being a top ten, its open to a little bit of debate - depending on who is considered a Light Welter, and who is considered retired.

These should all be ranked above him.
Mbaye, Witter, Tszyu, Hatton, Harris, Lazcano, Castillo, Cotto, Torres, Malignaggi, Corrales, Gatti, Kotelnik.

p4p is based mostly upon RECENT FORM

Not a late 90s reign. That was too long ago to matter for p4p. It's based more upon what transpired recently.

Hall of Fame counts of the whole picture. p4p is more to do with current(ish) stuff.

Now, a strong case can be made that Kostya was losing his rating due to injury/inactivity. A strong case. But Floyd has been languishing badly between Castillo II and Gatti. Whereas Tszyu picked things up by blasting out Mitchell, in their rematch.

Now Floyd is meant to be #1, but that's half ability/half HBO manufacturing.


I put Baldo, Maussa, Urango in the same bracket.
Baldo simply ended up beating the 'undisputed' champ when Judah 'spazzed up' as badly as Harris did.
I think Urango is maybe more promising - Ben Rabah is a b&stard to fight. They were all flukey sorts of win. Urango having got a lucky decision, in my view.
I will say, they all seem top ten. But at the same time, they won't beat many top tenners! None of them

Like I say, let's see what Baldo does. I will hail him as an Argentine legend if he does something major after the Floyd loss. I will say that Floyd just had the wrong style for him, LOL

[jamesmcdonnell]

Your very certain the Joshua "lost to Baldomir" Clottey is a top ten Welter.

Not in my books,

Mayweather,
Judah,
Margarito
Collazo
Quintana
Williams
Baldomir
Urkal
Cintron
Gatti

Thats not even considering the soon to be moving up Miguel Cotto or Ricky Hatton (who is soon to be moving back down). BTW, thats not necessarily the top ten in order. I imagine my inclusion of Gatti will get a mixed reception, but Thomas Damngaard was a top ten fighter independently and Clottey hasn't beaten anyone of Damgaards stature.... Gutierrez was untested (and that was a close run thing anway).

Mayweather gets criticised for beating Baldomir.... Margarito gets applauded for fighting a guy who lost to him.

Perhaps Calzaghe vs Bika wasn't such a bad fight after all.

Aswell as Hatton/Cotto, Mosley may also fight PBF at 147 and fought only 2 fights ago at 147. Technically Castillo is at 147 so you'd put him top10 and Mitchell and Julio would be around about my top10 around Clotteys level.

How could you put Castillo top 10 at 147, he hasn't done anything yet!

[stujones]

Stu, I was the only person to talk up Calzaghe-Bika. I admit to being 'knobhead' of the week - now I will turn to booze and LSD for my insights. I repent, and will bury my head in my hands every time Bika's name is mentioned. No need to agree with my badly wrong prediction!

Sorry, I actually forgot (honest) that you actually called Bika to beat Joe.

All my point was in championing Clottey and not Baldomir it is like championing Bika as a Calzaghe opponent and not Beyer as a Calzaghe opponent.

Bika lost to Beyer, Clottey lost to Baldomir. Yet Baldomir seems to be considered a lucky fighter and Clottey a tough S.O.B and credible challenge.

If Mayweather signed to fight Clottey next, we would all be critical.... with justification.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

[
How could you put Castillo top 10 at 147, he hasn't done anything yet!

On beating Corrales at that weight

[jamesmcdonnell]

Doesn't count, as Corralles has done nothing at Welterweight either. So let me get this straight, if Calzaghe came in over weight for a fight at 168, that makes him top 10 at light heavyweight? Not on your nelly mate.

[Autobarn]

quote]

How do we know Marg/Arrum are turning down the fights - because they have. Fighters call him out and he ignores them and claims hes ducked. Williams calls him out wins mandatory position and gets ignored so Marg can face Clottey after previously fighting someone not worthy of a top30 place. Winky gave him a counter offer - a career high payday but Marg turned it down.

Why are you giving Hatton and Marg leway and coming down so hard on PBF? Lets remember Hatton could have fought PBF, Witter, , Margarito, Tyszu 2 in his last few fights but went for Maussa, Collazo, Urango. And wouldnt grant Collazo a rematch after nearly getting ko'd in the final round and promising the rematch.

Don't compare Maussa to Baldomir, Maussa was coming off a loss to Cotto, fluked past Harris and had no skills. Baldomir gritted wins against Gatti and Judah and been unbeaten for years. The Clottey fight was 7years ago and Baldo got the W.

Urango is a nobody who really lost his last fight - hes not top10. Hattons have been on par with Witters past 4 or possibly below that level.

Why come down on Floyd? because I thought he was meant to be the greatest since Sugar Ray. Standards are high.

Yet Hatton has faced the more consistently tough opposition in the last few fights, if you go from Tszyu, Maussa, Collazo, to presuming he beats Urango & gets to Castillo.

Castillo is the one guy who can destroy Hatton.

Margarito can't fight every guy when he has a voluntary against the avoided Clottey and then a mandatory vs the untested, but 6'1 puncher Williams. Clottey is a hard bastard, btw.

I'm afraid you're wrong about Marg-Williams. Until Marg fails to make the date, he is innocent until proven guilty. Have the WBO given him a date to defend by?

Damn shame Marg didn't duck Daniel Santos, Kermit Cintron, Andrew Lewis, Antonio Diaz & Sergio Martinez. Because you would love it, Phenomenal Muckraker.


Urango, Maussa, Baldo - they all came along at the right time. If Judah had fought Cosme Rivera in his hometown he might well have lost. That seems to be why he lost his head.

Maussa does have a good win, unbeaten prospect Jeffrey Resto.

I'll give Zab credit - he put on some of the best boxing of his career, whe he got up for Mayweather. He may have won 4 rounds & really he knocked him down.

I say that for perspective.

However, Cosme Rivera could easily have been the Universally Titw4nked welterweight champion.

The award feels quite arbitrary, given Judder's (as Hatton calls him) piss poor focus and lack of heart vs Baldo.


It's funny. You question Floyd & it's like the whole welter top 10 are the usual suspects, haha



Only one way to solve this debate:

Floyd face some top ten welters. Believe me, if the two Dec fights prove to be crackers, there are a posisble four fighters who will be way mroe marketable. Floyd cannot say "Who he?" or publically slam them with ignorant comments, if the dec card goes well

[stujones]

Let's give Hatton some leeway. When Hatton fought Tszyu, Kostya's claim to the p4p throne was greater than Floyd's. Since beating Tszyu, every fight has been vs a top 10 fighter. Urango's title claims are as convincing as Baldo's/Romero's/Maussa's, but he's def top 10, and JL Castillo is next. personally, I cannot fault that.

Right first of all the P4P debate.

Yep, I agree Kostya should have been clearly ranked ahead of Mayweather in the Light Welter rankings at the time.... P4P, sorry disagree. Just as Kostya had dominated the Light Welterweight seen, Floyd had the Super Featherweights and Lightweight.... beating past, present and future champions in doing so. When you look at P4P ALL the factors should be considered.

Did Hatton's struggles at 147 affect his P4P status, no it didn't cause his P4P status was mainly gained at a different weight..... same with Floyd at the time. Sugar Ray Leonard never proved himself the best Light Heavyweight in the world, but his P4P standing was much better than his rival champions.

Okay, now onto who is the better champion between Urango and Baldomir. Sorry, you might think Baldomir is nothing but a club fighter (who beat your main man Clottey BTW), but he BEAT the main man in the devision (fairly in my book). Whether Judah was up for it or not, he still won.

Maussa BEAT Harris fairly, again Harris' preparation must be questioned but it was a fair win. However, unlike Judah - Harris was never the man.... Only A champion (never THE) cause Tszyu was injured. Urango got given an absolute gift (worse decision of the year) against an equally non worthy foe.... Major difference, 1) Baldomir won / Urango didn't. 2)Baldo beat THE man/ Urango didn't. 3) The man was also an outstanding boxer / Rabah isn't.

Again as for Urango being a top ten, its open to a little bit of debate - depending on who is considered a Light Welter, and who is considered retired.

These should all be ranked above him.
Mbaye, Witter, Tszyu, Hatton, Harris, Lazcano, Castillo, Cotto, Torres, Malignaggi, Corrales, Gatti, Kotelnik.

p4p is based mostly upon RECENT FORM

Not a late 90s reign. That was too long ago to matter for p4p. It's based more upon what transpired recently.

Hall of Fame counts of the whole picture. p4p is more to do with current(ish) stuff.

Now, a strong case can be made that Kostya was losing his rating due to injury/inactivity. A strong case. But Floyd has been languishing badly between Castillo II and Gatti. Whereas Tszyu picked things up by blasting out Mitchell, in their rematch.

Now Floyd is meant to be #1, but that's half ability/half HBO manufacturing.


I put Baldo, Maussa, Urango in the same bracket.
Baldo simply ended up beating the 'undisputed' champ when Judah 'spazzed up' as badly as Harris did.
I think Urango is maybe more promising - Ben Rabah is a b&stard to fight. They were all flukey sorts of win. Urango having got a lucky decision, in my view.
I will say, they all seem top ten. But at the same time, they won't beat many top tenners! None of them

Like I say, let's see what Baldo does. I will hail him as an Argentine legend if he does something major after the Floyd loss. I will say that Floyd just had the wrong style for him, LOL

Regarding your last paragraph.... you know that Baldo will probably call time on his career, just as Kostya Tszyu seems to have done. Its quite common practice in fighters who reach their mid 30's.

Difference between Baldo and Urango is that one of them HAS beaten a top ten fighter, the other hasn't (even if you go by the rule book Rabah isn't top ten). Carlos Maussa is/was more credible than Urango. I didn't mind the Maussa and Collazo fights for Ricky, but Urango is streching it a bit.

As for the P4P situation. Your quite right, of course it should be based on recent form. Floyd Mayweather was first considered in the P4P bracket following his win over J L Castillo back in 2002.... Not late 90's. Although alot of his ranking was based ALSO on his success in the 90's.

What did Kostya Tszyu do between 2002 and 2005. Tackie, Leijla and a faded (ask Lovemore Ndou and Michael Stewart) Sharmba Mitchell (who you have criticised as Floyd test waters opponent).

Hardly a whose who of credible opponent. Mitchell yes, the others no.

[Autobarn]

Stu, I was the only person to talk up Calzaghe-Bika. I admit to being 'knobhead' of the week - now I will turn to booze and LSD for my insights. I repent, and will bury my head in my hands every time Bika's name is mentioned. No need to agree with my badly wrong prediction!

Sorry, I actually forgot (honest) that you actually called Bika to beat Joe.

All my point was in championing Clottey and not Baldomir it is like championing Bika as a Calzaghe opponent and not Beyer as a Calzaghe opponent.

Bika lost to Beyer, Clottey lost to Baldomir. Yet Baldomir seems to be considered a lucky fighter and Clottey a tough S.O.B and credible challenge.

If Mayweather signed to fight Clottey next, we would all be critical.... with justification.

not, I picked Bika to win 5 rounds and lose seven, in a hard fight

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Stu, I was the only person to talk up Calzaghe-Bika. I admit to being 'knobhead' of the week - now I will turn to booze and LSD for my insights. I repent, and will bury my head in my hands every time Bika's name is mentioned. No need to agree with my badly wrong prediction!

Maussa 2 questions I have for you - 1.) Why did you edit your posts which claimed Bika had an argument for the win? I had Bika winning (I thought his punches were more effective and Joe missed allot of his shoe shinners), I only watched once during a phone conversation, but I really thought Bika took it.
2.) Why the name Maussa? That big a Hatton fan?

[Autobarn]

Right first of all the P4P debate.

Yep, I agree Kostya should have been clearly ranked ahead of Mayweather in the Light Welter rankings at the time.... P4P, sorry disagree. Just as Kostya had dominated the Light Welterweight seen, Floyd had the Super Featherweights and Lightweight.... beating past, present and future champions in doing so. When you look at P4P ALL the factors should be considered.

Did Hatton's struggles at 147 affect his P4P status, no it didn't cause his P4P status was mainly gained at a different weight..... same with Floyd at the time. Sugar Ray Leonard never proved himself the best Light Heavyweight in the world, but his P4P standing was much better than his rival champions.

Okay, now onto who is the better champion between Urango and Baldomir. Sorry, you might think Baldomir is nothing but a club fighter (who beat your main man Clottey BTW), but he BEAT the main man in the devision (fairly in my book). Whether Judah was up for it or not, he still won.

Maussa BEAT Harris fairly, again Harris' preparation must be questioned but it was a fair win. However, unlike Judah - Harris was never the man.... Only A champion (never THE) cause Tszyu was injured. Urango got given an absolute gift (worse decision of the year) against an equally non worthy foe.... Major difference, 1) Baldomir won / Urango didn't. 2)Baldo beat THE man/ Urango didn't. 3) The man was also an outstanding boxer / Rabah isn't.

Again as for Urango being a top ten, its open to a little bit of debate - depending on who is considered a Light Welter, and who is considered retired.

These should all be ranked above him.
Mbaye, Witter, Tszyu, Hatton, Harris, Lazcano, Castillo, Cotto, Torres, Malignaggi, Corrales, Gatti, Kotelnik.

p4p is based mostly upon RECENT FORM

Not a late 90s reign. That was too long ago to matter for p4p. It's based more upon what transpired recently.

Hall of Fame counts of the whole picture. p4p is more to do with current(ish) stuff.

Now, a strong case can be made that Kostya was losing his rating due to injury/inactivity. A strong case. But Floyd has been languishing badly between Castillo II and Gatti. Whereas Tszyu picked things up by blasting out Mitchell, in their rematch.

Now Floyd is meant to be #1, but that's half ability/half HBO manufacturing.


I put Baldo, Maussa, Urango in the same bracket.
Baldo simply ended up beating the 'undisputed' champ when Judah 'spazzed up' as badly as Harris did.
I think Urango is maybe more promising - Ben Rabah is a b&stard to fight. They were all flukey sorts of win. Urango having got a lucky decision, in my view.
I will say, they all seem top ten. But at the same time, they won't beat many top tenners! None of them

Like I say, let's see what Baldo does. I will hail him as an Argentine legend if he does something major after the Floyd loss. I will say that Floyd just had the wrong style for him, LOL

Regarding your last paragraph.... you know that Baldo will probably call time on his career, just as Kostya Tszyu seems to have done. Its quite common practice in fighters who reach their mid 30's.

Difference between Baldo and Urango is that one of them HAS beaten a top ten fighter, the other hasn't (even if you go by the rule book Rabah isn't top ten). Carlos Maussa is/was more credible than Urango. I didn't mind the Maussa and Collazo fights for Ricky, but Urango is streching it a bit.

As for the P4P situation. Your quite right, of course it should be based on recent form. Floyd Mayweather was first considered in the P4P bracket following his win over J L Castillo back in 2002.... Not late 90's. Although alot of his ranking was based ALSO on his success in the 90's.

What did Kostya Tszyu do between 2002 and 2005. Tackie, Leijla and a faded (ask Lovemore Ndou and Michael Stewart) Sharmba Mitchell (who you have criticised as Floyd test waters opponent).

Hardly a whose who of credible opponent. Mitchell yes, the others no.

Mitchell was highly regarded until after Tszyu smashed his face in.

Many picked Mitchell to beat tszyu, 2nd time.

Like I say, Tszyu was suffering injuries around 03/04.

Doesn't really count for much after Mitchell was punished badly at the highest level. Only then did ppl realize he was finished.


Can't remmeber the exact years. Must be early 00s probably. Floyd was a top top p4p based on his outstanding wins at 130. At 135, no one seemed to rate Castillo so highly - and that is a bad mistake, because Castillo was coming off wins over Johnston and Bazan. Floyd holds up big time until after the 2nd Castillo fight.

[Autobarn]

Stu, I was the only person to talk up Calzaghe-Bika. I admit to being 'knobhead' of the week - now I will turn to booze and LSD for my insights. I repent, and will bury my head in my hands every time Bika's name is mentioned. No need to agree with my badly wrong prediction!

Maussa 2 questions I have for you - 1.) Why did you edit your posts which claimed Bika had an argument for the win? I had Bika winning (I thought his punches were more effective and Joe missed allot of his shoe shinners), I only watched once during a phone conversation, but I really thought Bika took it.
2.) Why the name Maussa? That big a Hatton fan?

1) I was pissed as a cricket when I saw the fight. In that state you can make a better case for Bika's irregular right leads vs Joe's hrrid slaps. Also, I wanted Bika to do well, having bene impresse dby the Beyer fight, and also being big on the Africans like Asiku, Munyai and Olusegun.
2) Oh, a conspiracy theorist who's trying to expose me, ha. Why Vicious / Maussa. I joined Boxrec around a week after Vicious Vivian versus Carlos Maussa. If I called myself MayGatti or gattiWeather I'd look a twat.

Not a hatton fan at all. I've spoken up for Witter many a time at my disappointment at Hatton not wanting to fight him. In fact, I was mortified when he beat tszyu, but like I say i respect his achievements

Not a big Chav culture fan either, which Hatton's personality seems to lend himself to, I will add.


However, WHY I think what I think isn't important. My only objection is a)that Floyd's fight with Baldo was vs a man of severe limitations who was never given a chance to win, hardly the great challenge it was dressed up as; b) that Floyd is depriving us great fights in the 147-lb division when there are many to fight him

[Lefthookhappy19]

Your very certain the Joshua "lost to Baldomir" Clottey is a top ten Welter.

Not in my books,

Mayweather,
Judah,
Margarito
Collazo
Quintana
Williams
Baldomir
Urkal
Cintron
Gatti

Thats not even considering the soon to be moving up Miguel Cotto or Ricky Hatton (who is soon to be moving back down). BTW, thats not necessarily the top ten in order. I imagine my inclusion of Gatti will get a mixed reception, but Thomas Damngaard was a top ten fighter independently and Clottey hasn't beaten anyone of Damgaards stature.... Gutierrez was untested (and that was a close run thing anway).

Mayweather gets criticised for beating Baldomir.... Margarito gets applauded for fighting a guy who lost to him.

Perhaps Calzaghe vs Bika wasn't such a bad fight after all.

OMFG. Did you really just include Gatti on a top ten list?? Unforgivable.

And Urkal?? Wtf? You are out of your mind.

Oh yeah. And Judah above Margarito? Whatever. Tony would beat the shit out of Judah. And Tony deals nicely with boxers. He hunts them down. Remember Sergio Martinez? Margarito's still the only guy to beat him. Martinez is a class boxer. Six heads Lewis could be slick also. Destroyed.

[Autobarn]

Glad you mention Martinez. He beat the well regarded British middleweight Richard Williams twice. Many expect Williams to beat Howard Eastman when they square off next month.

[stujones]

Your very certain the Joshua "lost to Baldomir" Clottey is a top ten Welter.

Not in my books,

Mayweather,
Judah,
Margarito
Collazo
Quintana
Williams
Baldomir
Urkal
Cintron
Gatti

Thats not even considering the soon to be moving up Miguel Cotto or Ricky Hatton (who is soon to be moving back down). BTW, thats not necessarily the top ten in order. I imagine my inclusion of Gatti will get a mixed reception, but Thomas Damngaard was a top ten fighter independently and Clottey hasn't beaten anyone of Damgaards stature.... Gutierrez was untested (and that was a close run thing anway).

Mayweather gets criticised for beating Baldomir.... Margarito gets applauded for fighting a guy who lost to him.

Perhaps Calzaghe vs Bika wasn't such a bad fight after all.

OMFG. Did you really just include Gatti on a top ten list?? Unforgivable.

And Urkal?? Wtf? You are out of your mind.

Oh yeah. And Judah above Margarito? Whatever. Tony would beat the shit out of Judah. And Tony deals nicely with boxers. He hunts them down. Remember Sergio Martinez? Margarito's still the only guy to beat him. Martinez is a class boxer. Six heads Lewis could be slick also. Destroyed.

Sorry my top ten was in no order. Just 10 names I would consider ahead of Clottey.

Oktay Urkal is on the slide, but was an undefeated European champion (never lost the belt in the ring) and beat the current EBU titlist also. That constitutes .

Gatti is hanging on a bit by a thread, but I think past accomplishments, a decent win over Daamgaard and a decent showing for a number of rounds vs Baldomir (arguably as good as Judah's effort) JUST clings him at 10.

If I did have those 10 in order, it would be like this - note this is after Saturday.

Mayweather,
Margarito
Baldomir
Judah
Collazo
Williams
Quintanta
Cintron
Gatti
Urkal

Good point on Sergio Martinez, I'll give you that one. I have Martinez in my top ten Light Middles, although its based on percieved skill levels over accomplishments (much like Quintana and Cintron's rankinh at Welter is). Plus he was a bit Green when he fought Tony.

Don't get me wrong, I do rate Margarito. I was a HUGE Antionio Diaz fan, Diaz was such a fun fighter to watch and Margarito showed amazing balls that night in a great fight, just when Diaz looked to be taking over. Christ I was on the boxingranks forum those days pleading for DLH vs Margarito or Moseley vs Margarito - I really did think he was that good.....but he has dissapointed me as a champion in some of his performances and in the callibre of opponent.... He makes Joe Calzaghe look like he has the balls of Tito Trinidad.

Honestly, if it was Thunder Gatti fighting Margarito next, I would see it as a step in the right direction.

I just think he needs to fight more often and against better opponents. His best opponents were a green Martinez and Diaz - 5-6 YEARS ago. Now he is getting applauded for fighting a guy WHO LOST to Baldomir. I don't care if Clottey was winning, or the ref was wrong to DQ him.... results are results. As much as I don't like the Hatton vs Urango fight, I still prefer it to Hatton vs Rabah.

[Lefthookhappy19]

God no. You're just not serious. I would actually be surprised if Gatti made it out of the first round against Margarito. Margarito would just push him right back against the ropes and tear him apart. Gatti's punch resistance is non existant. Im stunned Gatti is still rated. Gatti, even at lower weights had life and death wars with journeymen. Every shot feather fisted Carlos Baldomir landed shook him to his boots.