Tyson vs the great heavyweights before Sonny Liston

[dempseyfire]

No. I am not shouting. What makes you think that I am? We are just debating my friend.
Frazier weighed the scales in a weight that he was not accomstumed to. He was a solid 205-08 pounds the most. He looked too small for Foreman in height. It was like a father beating his child. It was not even a FAIR FIGHT.

At least Jimmy was taller and had that skill. He weighed 216 and Foreman 229. That was just 13 pounds difference. But I bet you if Young were only 180 pounds, I do not think he would haave whup Foreman, no matter how talented you are or how much heart you got. It is VERY TOUGH TO BEAT A BIG AND TALENTED HEAVYWEIGHT.

Young weighed 213 and was a little soft (his best fighting weight was around 205) The likes of Johnson, Frazier, Dempsey, and Marciano were stronger and hit harder than Young.

WHy are you exaggerating and saying 180 lbs? Louis was 200 and over at his best, Dempsey over 185 and usually at 190 at his peak. He knocked out skilled guys bigger than Tyson like bowling pins.

Frazier-Foreman had nothing to do with pure size and had to do with styles. You are usually smart, you should know that. Foreman outweighed Peralta, an old soft light HW, by 20 lbs but struggled with him . . .why couldn't he blast him out? According to your logic, he should have.

Again, you going on and on about a measly 15 lbs difference is ridiculous. Tyson was not that big a heavyweight. Joe Louis and Johnson were BIGGER men than Mike Gerald Tyson.

Joe Louis at his best was NEVER over 200 pounds. My YAH, this guy was almost KO by a 168 pound Billy Conn that did not had a great punch and could not kill a fly. Tony Galento, at 5'7" and about 200 pounds dropped Louis too. I cannot see these guys dropping Mike, no way!!!

Now I imagine Mike dropping Joe with those bombs. Joe will never get up. The ref would count to 1000.

Jack Dempsey put that stationary target of Willard to sleep. A no talented Willard at best could not even beat a Bonecrusher or Tony Tucker at his best. Different times, folks and different discrepency in weight. Tyson would also steamrolled Willard MUCH FASTER just like Dempsey did.

Foreman could not blow Peralta, but Peralta could not hurt him nor do any damage. He was fighting for survival just like Bonecrusher and Tucker did with Mike. You think that Peralta could go toe to toe with Big George? Peralta had better boxing skills than Dempsey, Marciano and Louis combined, but cannot hit.

I like what Louis, Marciano and Dempsey did for boxing. But I cannot be NOSTALGIC in this one. Tyson would have been too much for these guys.

And then you say that Dempsey peaked at 195. Still too low for someone as muscular and strong and as fast as Mike. Let's face it. Today's heavyweights may not be as talented as yesterdays, but a TALENTED AND BIG HEAVYWEIGHT like Tyson, Lewis or Bowe for example, would have destroy Louis, Marciano and Dempsey.

Hey, nobody is on my side on this, or I am debating with nostalgics???

Elmer, you are side-stepping my points, b/c you know you are full of crap. Number 1, get your facts right. Galento was 235 lbs, and had one of the hardest left hooks of all time. The fact that Louis got up from that shot and kicked Tony's ass more than speaks for his chin. Conn only hurt Louis after frustrating a tired Louis with his very tricky and fast boxing abilities for 12 rounds (Just like Douglas did to Tyson in the late rounds in their fight . . .or is Douglas now a big puncher???) Tyson and Conn were light years different; the fact that you are comparing the two is insane. BTW, Louis was never close to going down.

Most point to the Godoy, Baer, and Simon rematches as Louis at his absolute peak. In those fights he weighed over 200 lbs. Look at friggin' boxrec for crying out loud.

All in all you are talking about 15-25 lbs difference here. Do you want me to name the number of times HWs knocked out other HWs with that size differential and MUCH GREATER. There are literally HUNDREDS of examples . . . Tyson one of them. According to your logic, Tyson should have never beaten Ruddock in the rematch or Bruno b/c he was outweighed by 15 lbs or more (actually in both fights he was outweighed by over 20 lbs).

According to your logic, Corrie Sanders NEVER knocks out Klitschko, b/c he's outweighed by 20 lbs.

But Tyson beats all of these guys who were taller, had longer arms, better conditioned, more skilled etc. than himself b/c he simply outweighs them 215 to 195 or whatever?

What is your rational for this???? Hint hint . . . there IS NONE!

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

well dempsey defintley didnt peak at 195lb. his peak weight 1918-1919 was around 185lb. against willard his peak fight, dempsey really weighed 180lb but put weights in his pocket.

[Sweet Scientist]

Joe Louis at his best was NEVER over 200 pounds. My YAH, this guy was almost KO by a 168 pound Billy Conn that did not had a great punch and could not kill a fly. Tony Galento, at 5'7" and about 200 pounds dropped Louis too. I cannot see these guys dropping Mike, no way!!!

Now I imagine Mike dropping Joe with those bombs. Joe will never get up. The ref would count to 1000.

Then, I would say you have quite an "imagination"...Joe Louis would have utterly destroyed the likes of Mike Tyson...and most of us don't need an "imagination" to realise THAT...maybe if you tried a bigger font
...size 18 isn't convincing us...

[The Great John L]

Jim Jeffries: TOO SLOW FOR TYSON

Just curious -- how exactly is it that you know Jeffries was “TOO SLOW FOR TYSON”? Are you old enough to have actually seen a Jeffries fight?

[dempseyfire]

well dempsey defintley didnt peak at 195lb. his peak weight 1918-1919 was around 185lb. against willard his peak fight, dempsey really weighed 180lb but put weights in his pocket.

I'm talking about the 190 lb Dempsey who flattened Fulton in a round and destroyed Firpo.

Hell, Tyson weighed around 212 vs Ribalta . . . .

[elmersalsa]

The times are changing dempseyfire. The times are changing. Tony Galento who you said wiegh in at 235 when he fought Louis right. A 5'7" Tony Galento who was a tomato can full of flabs and was big because of drinking beer and eating like a glutton.

Do you really think that Galento was a talented heavyweight?

Do you think that Galento had the power to at least put Mike on the canvas?

Do you really think that Louis had better chin than Mike Tyson?

We could not argue that who hits harder between Douglas and Conn. C'mon demps, Do you really think a Billy Conn would at least Tyson? A 168 pound Billy Conn that could not kill a fly?

Who has better KO pct, Douglas or Conn? We cannot even discuss that because you know deep in yourself that Conn's power is not a match to Douglas'.

Now, Douglas a BIG, TALENTED AND QUICK HEAVYWEIGHT beat Mike Tyson. There is another example of bigger and talented beats smaller guys NO MATTER HOW GREAT OR TALENTED THEY WERE.

I could give PLENTY OF EXAMPLES:

Ali vs Foster
Louis vs Conn
Foreman vs Frazier
Frazier vs Foster
Bowe vs Holyfield
Douglas vs Tyson
Liston vs Patterson and many more.

Tyson was not just only big and strong and powerful. He was also skilled and fast. Tyson was A replica of Patterson and Dempsey, but much bigger and faster and more powerful.


Then you give me a sample of Sanders vs Klitschko. Klistscko is not talented anyway. He's brother is. What happened with Vitaly vs Sanders then? Ain't Vitaly way more talented than his brother? YES!!!

I am not saying that bigger is better. I am saying that a talented and bigger fighter MOST OF THE TIME, DESTROYS THE TALENTED AND SMALL FIGHTER. That is not fiction, those are facts.

Ruddock, Bruno nor Bonecrusher were never talented heavyweights. If they were talented, at least, at least, they would have beat Tyson or give him a better match.

[pundit]

Mike Tyson vs. the current heavyweights:

• Wladimir Klitschko: Tyson would be at a 30-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose.
• Shannon Briggs: Tyson would be at a 40-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose.
• Nicolai Valuev: Tyson would be at a 100-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose.
• David Tua: Tyson would be at a 50-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose.
• Oleg Maskaev: Tyson would be at a 20-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose. Also, he'd have trouble with Maskaev's boxing skills
• Hasim Rahman: Tyson would be at a 20-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose.
• Sam Peter: Tyson would be at a 40-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose.
• James ToneyTyson would be at a 30-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose.
• Chris Byrd: Byrd would completely outbox him.
• John Ruiz: Tyson was always open to the clinch. Ruiz would murder him.
• Jameel McCline: Tyson would be at a 60-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose.
• Matt Skelton: Tyson would be at a 50-pound weight disadvantage. Therefore, he'd lose.
• Danny Williams: Tyson lost because he was at a 50-pound weight disadvantage. In his prime, it would be no different.
• Tye Fields: Tyson would struggle with this giant of a man, but probably win on a split decision.
• Kevin McBride: Again, McBride would have 50 pounds on Tyson. He'd probably beat Tyson by DQ.

See? Anyone can make your stupid posts.

[JC]

Elmer it's interesting you dont mention Harry Wills, Sam McVea, George Godfrey, or Joe Jeanette in your original post.

McVea in particular would have been almost exactly the same proportions as Tyson (5' 10" 217lbs)

Dempseyfire, agree with pretty much every thing you've said on this thread. Especially that size and weight are two different things. Lykovich is and an inch taller and about 5lb heavier than Frank Bruno in his prime but look at the freaking size of Bruno compared to Lyko.

[elmersalsa]

Elmer it's interesting you dont mention Harry Wills, Sam McVea, George Godfrey, or Joe Jeanette in your original post.

McVea in particular would have been almost exactly the same proportions as Tyson (5' 10" 217lbs)

Dempseyfire, agree with pretty much every thing you've said on this thread. Especially that size and weight are two different things. Lykovich is and an inch taller and about 5lb heavier than Frank Bruno in his prime but look at the freaking size of Bruno compared to Lyko.

Yeah, Mcvea was almost on Mike's dimensions, but was he as talented and powerful and skilled as Mike?

Skill and heart is good. But a boxer that is bigger and has the skill and heart should always beat the smaller fighter. That is my point.

[dempseyfire]

You seem to be saying that Tyson was Louis or Dempsey's superior in terms of talent/skill. I think that is dead wrong. Louis and Dempsey were not only as strong as Tyson, hit as hard, just as fast (in Louis's case faster hands), but they were in better condition and had better all-around skills.

You are caught up on Louis-Conn. Number 1, Louis won that fight by KO (coming back from behind which is something Tyson never did). 2ndly, could I see Conn frustrating Tyson and giving him problems . . .absolutely. In fact, I say if Conn is able to stay in the fight by the 5th round he wins. Much more skilled boxer and multi-dimensional than Tyson was.

[DoubleM]

Elmersalsa, why the hell do you type so big? It makes the place look ugly. Surely it's not for any medical reason, seeing as you can read our posts. Do you do it in an attempt to make your writing seem more important?

[Friedie]

How many people would truly have backed Evander ever to have beaten Tyson, had they never fought?

Good Point!

How many people would truly have backed Max Schmeling ever to have beaten Louis, had they never fought on June 19th, 1936 ?

I'm more a fan of the "older" guys....and I think Johnson, Dempsey and Louis would've beat Tyson with ease.

[Taylor]

Tone down your tying,Elmer :x

[Tantum]

MY FONT IS HUGE, THEREFORE MY DICK MUST BE HUGE AS WELL

[elmersalsa]

Now, the problem I see here is that the nostalgia and the myths of the fighters of yesteryear would be a SIN that a fighter of this generation would be IMPOSSIBLE to beat a Rocky Marciano, a Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey.

I watched films of these guys, they were GREATER THAN TYSON, no doubt, but I think they were in their own time. If those fighters fought in Tyson's or Holmes or Ali's era, they would have been crushed. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

Someone said here that a Billy Conn, I think that it was dempseyfire, would have outboxed Mike Tyson after the 5th round. Then said that Louis and Marciano and Dempsey had better stamina.

The second opinion might be TRUE. They had better STAMINA and more heart than Tyson, that is a given, but STRONGER THAN TYSON??? Faster than Tyson??? I just don't think so.

Tyson was a SOLID AND CUT 215 pound guy. Fast, stocky, compact, powerful and skilled. These nostalgics BELIEVE that Tyson was not skilled because in their minds he did not had heart.


Luis Angel Firpo and Gene Tunney, guys that do not hit harder than Tyson dropped Dempsey. Tyson, a bigger specimen and the same replica of Dempser, but a bigger and faster version: Dempsey is dead.

Tony Galento, Jersey Joe Walcott, Tammie Mauriello, James Braddock and Max Schmeling dropped Louis. Billy Conn ALMOST knocked him out. A guy that has a KO pct of maybe less than 30% and did not weigh in no more than 168 pounds in Conn almost KOs Louis. The point I see here is that Louis did not had the best of chins and those guys, with the exception of Scmeling did not know how to finished Louis. Now I imagine a KILLER like Tyson, that was MUCH FASTER THAN THOSE GUYS ABOVE AND HAD MORE POWER, how would Louis end up. For Tyson to get knocked out, you had to hit him repeatedly and frustrate him and tying him up. I cannot see a Joe Louis frustrating and hitting and beating Tyson to the punch because he was not that type of figther. He was always going forward. Did not had the best of foot movement like Douglas or Holyfield, or even the size of those guys. Never weigh in mored than 200 pounds, how would have he hurt a guy with a solid chin like Tyson?
Let's be realistic guys. Let's be realistic.

Rocky Marciano probably had more heart and stamina than Iron Mike, but faster, stronger or more powerful than Mike? Like Louis, he was tailor made for Mike. Never weigh in more than 190 pounds in his prime, and 2 old men (Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott) that were not in their primes, neither had Tyson's punch nor the speeed, dropped him. Moore did not even weigh in no more than 185 pounds when he faced Marciano and Walcott that probably had better skills than Mike, but did not had youth dropped him in the very first round.

Mike Tyson was a beast. Too big for these guys, and too fast and too powerful.

[dempseyfire]

Now, the problem I see here is that the nostalgia and the myths of the fighters of yesteryear would be a SIN that a fighter of this generation would be IMPOSSIBLE to beat a Rocky Marciano, a Joe Louis or Jack Dempsey.

I watched films of these guys, they were GREATER THAN TYSON, no doubt, but I think they were in their own time. If those fighters fought in Tyson's or Holmes or Ali's era, they would have been crushed. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

Someone said here that a Billy Conn, I think that it was dempseyfire, would have outboxed Mike Tyson after the 5th round. Then said that Louis and Marciano and Dempsey had better stamina.

The second opinion might be TRUE. They had better STAMINA and more heart than Tyson, that is a given, but STRONGER THAN TYSON??? Faster than Tyson??? I just don't think so.

Tyson was a SOLID AND CUT 215 pound guy. Fast, stocky, compact, powerful and skilled. These nostalgics BELIEVE that Tyson was not skilled because in their minds he did not had heart.


Luis Angel Firpo and Gene Tunney, guys that do not hit harder than Tyson dropped Dempsey. Tyson, a bigger specimen and the same replica of Dempser, but a bigger and faster version: Dempsey is dead.

Tony Galento, Jersey Joe Walcott, Tammie Mauriello, James Braddock and Max Schmeling dropped Louis. Billy Conn ALMOST knocked him out. A guy that has a KO pct of maybe less than 30% and did not weigh in no more than 168 pounds in Conn almost KOs Louis. The point I see here is that Louis did not had the best of chins and those guys, with the exception of Scmeling did not know how to finished Louis. Now I imagine a KILLER like Tyson, that was MUCH FASTER THAN THOSE GUYS ABOVE AND HAD MORE POWER, how would Louis end up. For Tyson to get knocked out, you had to hit him repeatedly and frustrate him and tying him up. I cannot see a Joe Louis frustrating and hitting and beating Tyson to the punch because he was not that type of figther. He was always going forward. Did not had the best of foot movement like Douglas or Holyfield, or even the size of those guys. Never weigh in mored than 200 pounds, how would have he hurt a guy with a solid chin like Tyson?
Let's be realistic guys. Let's be realistic.

Rocky Marciano probably had more heart and stamina than Iron Mike, but faster, stronger or more powerful than Mike? Like Louis, he was tailor made for Mike. Never weigh in more than 190 pounds in his prime, and 2 old men (Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott) that were not in their primes, neither had Tyson's punch nor the speeed, dropped him. Moore did not even weigh in no more than 185 pounds when he faced Marciano and Walcott that probably had better skills than Mike, but did not had youth dropped him in the very first round.

Mike Tyson was a beast. Too big for these guys, and too fast and too powerful.

-YOU STILL HAVEN'T EXPLAINED HOW A 15 LB WEIGHT ADVANTAGE MAKES HIM A MONSTER IN COMPARISON

-HOW DO YOU KNOW TYSON HIT HARDER THAN WALCOTT, SCHMELING, OR GALENTO? HAVE YOU BEEN HIT BY ALL OF THEM? B/C HE OUTWEIGHED THEM BY 20 LBS (but not Firpo, who you claimed didn't hit as hard as Mike)? BY THAT LOGIC NICOLAY VALUEV SHOULD BE THE GREATEST PUNCHER OF ALL TIME . . .OR WAS THAT PRIMO CARNERA?

-LOOKING AT THE FILM I CAN SEE THAT WALCOTT, CONN, AND LOUIS HAD BETTER HANDSPEED THAN TYSON.

-LOUIS DID NOT ALWAYS GO FORWARD

[generic screen name]

you forgot to make your font bigger.

[elmersalsa]

Now, the problem I see here is that the nostalgia and the myths of the fighters of yesteryear would be a SIN that Mike Tyson might actually lose to one of the all-time greats, especially given that he lost to a really crappy fighter in Buster Douglas.

But Decagon, Buster was a big and talented heavyweight. Look how he boxed against Tyson.

Joe Louis nor Marciano nor Dempsey ever, never ever has beaten someone as big and talented as Douglas.


Douglas when he fought Tyson, was a 6'4" with 231 pounds of great speed, ring generalship and a awesome jab. Don't you think???
d

[Sweet Scientist]

Dempsey was a giant killer! He beat Fulton, Morris, Willard and Firpo, and none of them had big, swinging bitch tits.

I will be checking old film to verify this!

[Sweet Scientist]

Elmersalsa has repeatedly proven himself not to be very knowledgable...I choose not to be like him...you can do what you think is best...

[bill.lockhart]

Tyson was a shooting star. At his best, he was very very good. By 1990 he was beaten by Buster Douglas. He was 24. Look at the experience the old timers had, & the bouts they participated in. Weight means nothing if not matched equally by skill & desire. Add in the experience factor as well & Tyson begins to look pretty ordinary against most of them. In fairness to Tyson however, if some of these other fellas had accumulated the wealth & celebrity he had by age 24 they may have fallen from grace as well. Like Liston, Tyson was going to beat you if he could get to you early. If not, he was just as likely to beat himself. Some guys wouldn't survive the early onslaught. Who would or could? That's all conjecture, but Douglas survived it. I don't think anyone is comparing him with Joe Louis.

[Sweet Scientist]

EMERSALSA HAS A SMALL PENIS!!!!!

...thanks for not including a picture...

[elmersalsa]

Elmersalsa has repeatedly proven himself not to be very knowledgable...I choose not to be like him...you can do what you think is best...

Not very knowledgeable of what? of boxing? Well, I may not have time to go up with you sir, but if you think a Joe Louis would have beat a big and solid chiseled heavy like Mike or beat a talented fighter like Mike or Douglas then be it. I do not see it that way.

Guys as big and talented like Bowe, Douglas, Tyson, Lewis, Vitaly Klitschko, Liston or even Foreman would have crushed Joe Louis, Marciano or Dempsey or any fighter of the so called "Bum of the Month Club"

You guys could make fun of my fonts...keep it going, it does not bother me nor pay you no attention.

[elmersalsa]

But Decagon, Buster was a big and talented heavyweight. Look how he boxed against Tyson.

Joe Louis nor Marciano nor Dempsey ever, never ever has beaten someone as big and talented as Douglas.

Dempsey was a giant killer! He beat Fulton, Morris, Willard and Firpo, and none of them had big, swinging bitch tits. Joe Louis beat Carnera and Simon. Really, Douglas wasn't much more talented than any of them. His "ring generalship" against Tyson? All he did was neutralize Tyson's two main weapons, the left hook and the right uppercut. If Tyson hadn't had a one-dimensional gameplan to begin with, Douglas wouldn't have had so much ease in dismantling him.

By the way everyone, cool kids always respond to Elmersalsa with bigger and more annoying font than he uses!

Now you saying that Douglas did not had no ring generalship? Look at the fight again in how he moves and utilizes the ring in that magnificent night against Tyson, my friend. He uses the jab effectively, tied Tyson up and smothered him before Tyson got set to throw his punches. He used his big body to wear Tyson down. He used all his reach, speed and weight advantages. He used all his tools and the best thing of all, he was not scared of Tyson.

And all that, Tyson was able to put him on the floor. That means how hard Tyson hits, even in the later rounds. Now I imagine an uppercut like that to Louis or Marciano's jaw? END OF STORY.

[The Great John L]

But Decagon, Buster was a big and talented heavyweight. Look how he boxed against Tyson.

Joe Louis nor Marciano nor Dempsey ever, never ever has beaten someone as big and talented as Douglas.

Dempsey was a giant killer! He beat Fulton, Morris, Willard and Firpo, and none of them had big, swinging bitch tits. Joe Louis beat Carnera and Simon. Really, Douglas wasn't much more talented than any of them. His "ring generalship" against Tyson? All he did was neutralize Tyson's two main weapons, the left hook and the right uppercut. If Tyson hadn't had a one-dimensional gameplan to begin with, Douglas wouldn't have had so much ease in dismantling him.

By the way everyone, cool kids always respond to Elmersalsa with bigger and more annoying font than he uses!

Now you saying that Douglas did not had no ring generalship? Look at the fight again in how he moves and utilizes the ring in that magnificent night against Tyson, my friend. He uses the jab effectively, tied Tyson up and smothered him before Tyson got set to throw his punches. He used his big body to wear Tyson down. He used all his reach, speed and weight advantages. He used all his tools and the best thing of all, he was not scared of Tyson.

And all that, Tyson was able to put him on the floor. That means how hard Tyson hits, even in the later rounds. Now I imagine an uppercut like that to Louis or Marciano's jaw? END OF STORY.

No you are wrong. I imagine an uppercut like that would simply piss them off.