How am I having it both ways?... Haye was cut to bits and obviously tired... the Italian only needed to mount a decent attack or just take the fight a few more rounds and he probably would have got a stoppage!. Watch the fight and tell me Frag was more tired than Haye?... maybe he just lost interest or something but I've never seen someone fold up so quick when theyve got their opponent tired and badly cut.... hell of a lot of difference between this fight and the Moore vs Macklin bout... you cant compare the two fights....lvlarc_uk wrote:I'm not saying I disagree with some of those opinions, (although had it been stopped soon, no doubt people would STILL complain) but you can't have it both ways mate.
David Haye vs. Giacobbe Fragomeni
Like him or not and I'm not a great fan particularly, but Warren knows boxing and he knows how fighters can get hurt because he's seen it happen...TerribleTerry wrote:FW's thought on the subject are irrelevant IMO.silkov wrote: Maybe some of us know what we're watching mate... the fact that FW himself thought Macklin should have been pulled out earlier should tell you something on that subject!....
He doesnt manage Matthew anymore and hates his trainer so his comments are forever tainted with hideous levels of bias.
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TerribleTerry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5272
- Joined: 29 Aug 2003, 12:30
Warren wont let his knowledge of boxing get in the way of an opportunity to score points against a sworn enemy like Graham. Have you never read his NOTW column?!silkov wrote:Like him or not and I'm not a great fan particularly, but Warren knows boxing and he knows how fighters can get hurt because he's seen it happen...TerribleTerry wrote:FW's thought on the subject are irrelevant IMO.silkov wrote: Maybe some of us know what we're watching mate... the fact that FW himself thought Macklin should have been pulled out earlier should tell you something on that subject!....
He doesnt manage Matthew anymore and hates his trainer so his comments are forever tainted with hideous levels of bias.
Warren's comments are always backed by his agenda, whatever that may be..
True enough silkov, for Haye's sake I hope it wasn't a tank job because he'll get no favours against Bell if the fight does happen.silkov wrote:I think you'd see that theres a hell of a lot of difference between the two fights... anyone who thinks Moore tanked it against Marcinao is either blind or stupid...J-C wrote:That's an excellent point, it's like if Moore was supposed to tank the fight witn Marciano why the heck did he hit the iron jawed heavyweight hard enough to put him down in the 9th.WayoftheCass wrote:If that was a fix then bravo to whom ever organised it as I've never seen a fighter who is going to throw a fight give the victor hell for long. No way you take the shots Haye did and suffer the facial damage he did when your opponent is paid to dive. I mean surely if the fix was in the the Italian goes down earlier as for about 2-3 rounds there was a serious possibility of Haye being stopped on that horrible cut that was bleeding like a stuck pig.
No, Maybe he'd just took enough of a beating.silkov wrote:How am I having it both ways?... Haye was cut to bits and obviously tired... the Italian only needed to mount a decent attack or just take the fight a few more rounds and he probably would have got a stoppage!. Watch the fight and tell me Frag was more tired than Haye?... maybe he just lost interest or something but I've never seen someone fold up so quick when theyve got their opponent tired and badly cut.... hell of a lot of difference between this fight and the Moore vs Macklin bout... you cant compare the two fights....lvlarc_uk wrote:I'm not saying I disagree with some of those opinions, (although had it been stopped soon, no doubt people would STILL complain) but you can't have it both ways mate.
I'm not comparing the fights, just your perception. It's all good saying he "probably would of got the stoppage" spoken like a true armchair fan!
Once the cut appeared on Haye, he raised the intensity, had Fragomeni stagged a few times. The Italian was never going to quit as he was too tough for his own good, his corner did the right thing.
What if he had continued and been knocked down again, and again, and again...
If Haye was so tired as you say, then where did he get that burst of energy from to put Fragomeni on his ass with those big hayemakers.
I agree though, Haye got caught with a few big shots when he had his back on ropes, Enzo would punish him in that situation.
No conspiracy here, move along!
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yiddo14
- Heavyweight
Who has Enzo actually beat?
Forget his paper title that was given to him,he has a lot to prove.
I can't see a Enzo/Haye fight ever happening anyway.
Haye is fighting the top man in the division next.If he manages to win(I don't think he will)against Bell,then he will have zero left to prove at cruiser.Macca will be small fry to him then.
If he loses.....he will still move up to heavy IMO,and start afresh there.
It's a shame,because it would have been quite an exciting fight(with Haye scoring an early stoppage IMO)
Forget his paper title that was given to him,he has a lot to prove.
I can't see a Enzo/Haye fight ever happening anyway.
Haye is fighting the top man in the division next.If he manages to win(I don't think he will)against Bell,then he will have zero left to prove at cruiser.Macca will be small fry to him then.
If he loses.....he will still move up to heavy IMO,and start afresh there.
It's a shame,because it would have been quite an exciting fight(with Haye scoring an early stoppage IMO)
I think that haye and co will try to avoid a fight with Mormeck. Given that he has won the elim, I'll bet he won't risk it.
Fighters like Fragomeni, Serrat, Alain Simon are all poor man's Mormecks. They stalk, tuck up, square up and let their shots go when the opponent is on the ropes.
Difference is Mormeck has way more firepower and strength.
On another note, I give Haye his dues for overcoming difficulties to rally and stop his man. He needed to come through a crisis. And he also needed an exciting win, after the Abdoul affair.
Fighters like Fragomeni, Serrat, Alain Simon are all poor man's Mormecks. They stalk, tuck up, square up and let their shots go when the opponent is on the ropes.
Difference is Mormeck has way more firepower and strength.
On another note, I give Haye his dues for overcoming difficulties to rally and stop his man. He needed to come through a crisis. And he also needed an exciting win, after the Abdoul affair.
I thought Haye looked one dimensional myself, he kept throwing the same punches all through the fight even when frag' obviously knew what was coming and was making him miss repeatedly.
Haye's got a lot of raw potential but he isn't being developed, he's learned a couple of lessons in the pro game but learned them the hard way.
I don't know anything about this Boothe guy who trains him, I'd never heard of him before Haye came along and I don't really think he's up to much.
Haye's constantly playing the slugger and he doesn't have the build for it, he's got a hard jab he doesn't use enough, he spreads his feet too wide and his defense is poor. He should get with someone who can actually teach him to tighten up, improve his accuracy and smoothe over his rough edges.
The way he's going I don't see him being a world champion very long if at all, which is a shame as he could be better than he is with someone there to make adjustments.
Off the back of recent performances I think Enzo beats him at the moment.
Haye's got a lot of raw potential but he isn't being developed, he's learned a couple of lessons in the pro game but learned them the hard way.
I don't know anything about this Boothe guy who trains him, I'd never heard of him before Haye came along and I don't really think he's up to much.
Haye's constantly playing the slugger and he doesn't have the build for it, he's got a hard jab he doesn't use enough, he spreads his feet too wide and his defense is poor. He should get with someone who can actually teach him to tighten up, improve his accuracy and smoothe over his rough edges.
The way he's going I don't see him being a world champion very long if at all, which is a shame as he could be better than he is with someone there to make adjustments.
Off the back of recent performances I think Enzo beats him at the moment.
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Manos de Oro
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1630
- Joined: 21 Sep 2004, 12:10
definitely - if a 37 yo, 5' 9 1/2, light hitting Fragomeni can give him hell, Mormeck should knock him out.silkov wrote:I cant see Haye beating Mormeck, unless he catches him early, ...Mormeck has a higher workrate and far better stamina... Haye has world class power but his chin, stamina and workrate are all still questionable imo...
IMO Haye should try & fight Serrat, who got robbed against Thompson. Keep fighting these sturdy tough fighters. Since the Glenn kelly win, Haye has needed an opponent like Fragomeni.
To me, it looks like he's not ready for Bell. In reality, he's basically proved beyond a doubt that he belongs at EBU level. Needs to step it up very gradually.
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MightyWarrior
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 13249
- Joined: 23 Jan 2003, 14:01
The Italian was certainly trying to win early on, he was trying his luck by banging shots off the supposed suspect Haye jaw, which I'm sure the Italians had heard about.
I thought Haye came out of the fight looking a lot better than he did going in: chin held up and so did his confidence when things didn't go his way. And showed patience in there too - the body shots did the job in the end.
Probably as good as he'll get in terms of a world shot warm up.
Maybe they can tempt Bell for a voluntery and it's bombs away.
I thought Haye came out of the fight looking a lot better than he did going in: chin held up and so did his confidence when things didn't go his way. And showed patience in there too - the body shots did the job in the end.
Probably as good as he'll get in terms of a world shot warm up.
Maybe they can tempt Bell for a voluntery and it's bombs away.
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Bard of Boxrec
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 13112
- Joined: 22 Feb 2002, 20:00
It wouldn't be a voluntary, Haye is WBC #1. Bell has 6 months or something to fight him.MightyWarrior wrote:The Italian was certainly trying to win early on, he was trying his luck by banging shots off the supposed suspect Haye jaw, which I'm sure the Italians had heard about.
I thought Haye came out of the fight looking a lot better than he did going in: chin held up and so did his confidence when things didn't go his way. And showed patience in there too - the body shots did the job in the end.
Probably as good as he'll get in terms of a world shot warm up.
Maybe they can tempt Bell for a voluntery and it's bombs away.
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dr_devious
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5346
- Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 09:19
Bell will beat Haye unless Haye tags him early. Haye is great offensively but not so good defensively. He doesnt look comfortable getting hit, i'll never forget him gettin knocked over by the African light heavy. Good win on Fri nite tho, showed guts comin through the bad cut, and his stamina looked a bit better.
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TerribleTerry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5272
- Joined: 29 Aug 2003, 12:30
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Old bones Ian
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 11792
- Joined: 13 Jul 2004, 07:33
I'll still don't like the fact that they were talking of leaving it 6 months before Haye challenges Bell, i know he's got to give it time for the cut to heal , but even so, with someone who struggles to make the weight leaving it so long to go for the title will only harm his chances.
As for Haye v Macca then , both boxers are pretty much at the same time in their careers, Haye has just beaten a good come foward boxer in Fragomeni, Macca did the same with an impressive KO of Dominguez.
Both can blow out anyone early, and both can be hurt and decked.
As for Haye v Macca then , both boxers are pretty much at the same time in their careers, Haye has just beaten a good come foward boxer in Fragomeni, Macca did the same with an impressive KO of Dominguez.
Both can blow out anyone early, and both can be hurt and decked.
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jamesmcdonnell
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 45213
- Joined: 12 Nov 2003, 06:11
I think Haye proved a lot in this fight. Mainly that Fragomelli MADE him work at a pace that Haye didn't want, but David sucked it up and pulverised him after an entertaining scrap.
He's undoubtedly better equipped to challenge for world title now that he's teamed up with the Maloney's, than he probably ever would have been letting Fight Academy handle his affairs. Good luck to the bloke.
He's undoubtedly better equipped to challenge for world title now that he's teamed up with the Maloney's, than he probably ever would have been letting Fight Academy handle his affairs. Good luck to the bloke.
Looking at Haye's frame you have to feel he could make 200lb for a good while yet I get the impression he just hates doing it, and his mind is already made up to move to heavyweight as soon as possible.jamesmcdonnell wrote:I'm sure Haye will make the weight if he lays off the weight training, he's packed an awful lot of muscle onto his frame recently.
I like Haye and enjoy watching him, I just fear that his first big payday will ruin him in terms of motivation etc, hope I'm wrong though...
Didn't see the fight (don't have sky) but saw the finnish, Haye looked nackered but certainly no more nackared than the guy on his arse and he obviously had enough enargy to put together a decent combination (guard not withstanding) Thus it is sencible for the courner to guess he is more likely to put together another combo befor the end of the round and save there fighter the punnishment.
Broadly it sounds like it was a good fight for him to be having and he is improving in some respects however I agree he could do with someone to sort out some of his deffence etc. How was his jab looking seems to be improving from what I've seen.
Is the fight online anywhere?
Broadly it sounds like it was a good fight for him to be having and he is improving in some respects however I agree he could do with someone to sort out some of his deffence etc. How was his jab looking seems to be improving from what I've seen.
Is the fight online anywhere?