Could Tyson have been the best ever?....

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 16 Nov 2006, 14:17

Tyson.....he could NEVER have been the greatest ever,never.
The guy did'nt have great heart.
Never beat a great fighter.
Got his ass handed to him by B level Buster Douglas.
Holyfield,Lewis would always have beaten him.Just too tough for him.Bowe would have beaten him also.
These 3 would have beaten a 'prime' Tyson everytime.

Everytime someone stood up to him,the guy lost.

I think it insults the truly great fighters to suggest he could have been the greatest.
He does'nt even make top 10.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 16 Nov 2006, 14:48

overhand_right wrote:OH MY GOD....

IT NEVER ENDS...

I AM FOREVER PERMANENTLY TRAPPED IN F#CKIN GROUNDHOG DAY!!!!!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

And there you shall remain until you sleep with Andie MacDowell...better grab a Snickers bar....

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 16 Nov 2006, 14:51

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:... if he had held his life together??

In the late 80s when Tyson was knocking out top contenders cold, he was, potentially heing named in the same bracket as Ali.

Of course we all know the deaths of his mentors, failed marriage, trouble with the law, rape charges etc... has contributed to his downfall

he dumped his original team not long after winning the title for Don King and a variety of yes men.
Tyson was facing all sorts of personal problems even before his loss to Douglas, and he was never the same fighter when he came out of prison.
Holyfield did not beat a prime Tyson.

Had he managed to keep it together physically and psychologically and retired by 32 could he have been up there with Ali in Heavyweight Valhalla?

Did you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 16 Nov 2006, 15:21

yiddo14 wrote:Tyson.....he could NEVER have been the greatest ever,never.
The guy did'nt have great heart.
Never beat a great fighter.
Got his ass handed to him by B level Buster Douglas.
Holyfield,Lewis would always have beaten him.Just too tough for him.Bowe would have beaten him also.
These 3 would have beaten a 'prime' Tyson everytime.

Everytime someone stood up to him,the guy lost.

I think it insults the truly great fighters to suggest he could have been the greatest.
He does'nt even make top 10.

What a crock of freakin bullshit.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 16 Nov 2006, 15:25

I don't think so.

Jan · Post by **Jan** » 16 Nov 2006, 16:20

Yes, I think that Tyson had the skills to be one of the greatest or maybe THE greatest. Look ath his record after beating Spinks. He was only 21 (!) years and had beaten the top-hws of his time easily. Jose Torres once said:"I always thaught Ali was the greatest, I admired Louis and Marciano. But I knew that Tyson had the potential to be better than everybody before him!"

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 16 Nov 2006, 16:25

Jan wrote:Jose Torres once said:"I always thaught Ali was the greatest, I admired Louis and Marciano. But I knew that Tyson had the potential to be better than everybody before him!"

He also had the potential to be an idiot...which of those two "potentials" did he come closer to, do you think?

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 16 Nov 2006, 17:06

The sad thing is the same people were replying to the same content with exactly the same comments they posted in every other Tyson thread...

gregor · Post by **gregor** » 16 Nov 2006, 18:19

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Could Tyson have been the best ever?....

No. It was already mentioned he wouldn't have much chance against Foreman and good movers like Ali or (prime) Holmes would probably outbox him as well. Not to mention a lot of other fighters that have at least good chance against him.

I think the proper question should be more modest, like "could Tyson have stayed undefeated in his era?". I still believe the answer would be negative because he'd meet Holyfield one day or another anyway...

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 16 Nov 2006, 19:15

If by best ever you mean, unstable, vulgar, low life and totally lacking class and common sense.... yes, he was the best ever.

If by the best ever you mean could he have beaten Liston, Louis, Charles, Marciano, Dempsey, Baer, Shavers, Foreman, Ali.... the answer is NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

yiddo14 · Post by **yiddo14** » 17 Nov 2006, 03:41

RazorKO wrote:
yiddo14 wrote:Tyson.....he could NEVER have been the greatest ever,never.
The guy did'nt have great heart.
Never beat a great fighter.
Got his ass handed to him by B level Buster Douglas.
Holyfield,Lewis would always have beaten him.Just too tough for him.Bowe would have beaten him also.
These 3 would have beaten a 'prime' Tyson everytime.

Everytime someone stood up to him,the guy lost.

I think it insults the truly great fighters to suggest he could have been the greatest.
He does'nt even make top 10.
What a crock of freakin bullshit.

Beautiful way with words Razor!
So,is Buster Douglas being labelled a B class heavyweight bullshit?
Did Tyson ever beat a great heavyweight? Or anyone even close to being labeled great?(An old,out of shape Larry Holmes does'nt count.Prime Larry would have beat Tyson for certain)
Did Tyson ever show great heart in the ring? A will to overcome the odds? Did he ever come form behind to win?
When fighters were'nt afraid of him and met him head on(Lewis,Holyfield,Douglas,Williams!)did he prevail,or did he take a beating?
Is this bullshit?
Me thinks not matey

You can say Bowe,Lewis and Holyfield being able to beat Mike is bullshit,because thats only an opinion.
When I said he can't be top 10....yet again,you can say thats bullshit because thats only my opinion......an opinion I'am sure the majority of boxing fans with any knowledge would agree with.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 17 Nov 2006, 09:43

Riddick Blowe wrote:The sad thing is the same people were replying to the same content with exactly the same comments they posted in every other Tyson thread...

Exactly Riddick!!

Its the exact same conversation between these same geeks every god damn week. Man this forum needs some f#ckin stern moderators its becoming another Current Scene.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 17 Nov 2006, 11:32

I think this is a good question. Tyson, in my opinion, never reached his PEAK in the so called "Glory Days".

I remember back in the day when he beat Spinks that many people were saying that he was the greatest fighter that ever lived. He was just ONLY 22 years old, and was becoming a myth. He had that aura like Ali and Louis before him. He was a big attraction, hate him or love him. He waked up the sport that was going down at the time. He was someone that people could relate too.

Tyson was also a fascinating story from rags to riches. He was famous all over the world and already at the time made more money than Muhammad Ali in his whole career.

People that DO NOT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT BOXING, believe that Tyson was better than Ali and all the heavyweights before and after him. Probably, 100 years from now, his name will always be mentioned more than greater fighters than he, like Salvador Sanchez, Ruben Olivares or Mantequilla Napoles.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 17 Nov 2006, 12:30

So,is Buster Douglas being labelled a B class heavyweight bullshit?

Yyou can not use the Douglas fight to analyise a prime Tyson, Tyson was out of it it technically when Rooney was gone as his trainer, after Rooney his new handlers were not there for his well-beling, they were just there for the money and Tyson was in no shape to take on Douglas, he was even floored by Page in sparring leading up the fight.
To give proof of how unprepared not only Tyson but his corner is that they even used a BALOON FILLED WITH ICE! to put down the swelling! Tyson's corner did not even have a swelling compress. Thats how unpreared they were.

Did Tyson ever beat a great heavyweight? Or anyone even close to being labeled great?(An old,out of shape Larry Holmes does'nt count.Prime Larry would have beat Tyson for certain)

Tyson cleared out the 80's HWs with ease, Holmes was past it when Mike beat him but only a few years later Holmes won every round against Mercer and have Holyfield a close match! But Tyson knocked him out for the first time in his career! At the very least give him credit for that.
Berbick, Thomas, Spinks, Tucker are just some of the good wins he has on his record as well knocking Williams out in the first round - the same that went 15 with Holmes and should of been the new champ.

Did Tyson ever show great heart in the ring? A will to overcome the odds? Did he ever come form behind to win

He showed tremendous heart in the Ruddock fight where he took the Razor's best left hooks but never went down and instead fought toe to toe where Lewis chose to run for the first round, he showed heart by taking the beating he did against Douglas and Holyfield where other HW's would of crumpled also came back to win against Botha with one single punch.

When fighters were'nt afraid of him and met him head on(Lewis,Holyfield,Douglas,Williams!)

So you think the Lewis, Holyfield and Williams fight all showed Tyson at his best? Tyson was so past it for all 3 fights it wasnt even funny (Although I dont count Lewis's terrible performace against Tyson a 'Fight') Lewis even put Ruiz himself to shame with that horrible performace.

You can say Bowe,Lewis and Holyfield being able to beat Mike is bullshit,because thats only an opinion.

Well in my opinion Holyfield vs Tyson fight is a 50/50 match up and I could imgaine Bowe of the first Holyfield giving Tyson hell as well. But theres absolutley no way hugging, arrogant, chinless and lumbering Lewis beat Tyson, hell the man was fighting for his life against Shannon Briggs, SHANNON BRIGGS OF ALL PEOPLE! Not to mention being knocked out by a single blow from 2 Journeyman, whooped by Mercer, outjabbed by Bruno, out-smarted and hurt from past it Tucker and floored by Akiwande! I dont want to even describe the whooping Vitali gave him either.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 17 Nov 2006, 16:23

RazorKO wrote:So you think the Lewis, Holyfield and Williams fight all showed Tyson at his best? Tyson was so past it for all 3 fights it wasnt even funny (Although I dont count Lewis's terrible performace against Tyson a 'Fight') Lewis even put Ruiz himself to shame with that horrible performace.

Razor, how was Lewis' performance against Tyson horrible? It wasnt Lewis' most fluent but it was incredibly effective. He kept away from Tyson in the first couple of rounds then gave him a terrible beating. This did actually show Tyson's tremendous courage......he took a horrible beating off Lewis.

Bard of Boxrec · Post by **Bard of Boxrec** » 18 Nov 2006, 08:57

Oblivious to their repetition and overhand and riddick's weariness, they plough on, undeterred!

monkeybusiness · Post by **monkeybusiness** » 23 Nov 2006, 14:04

I think Tyson, in the same mould as Frazier-short, squat, explosive-had already peaked physically by about '91 and so, eventually, somebody would have caught up with him.
I think it's a good point that, considering his mental state, he actually achieved eveything he could as he held his life together for a short period of time.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 23 Nov 2006, 14:59

Mike Tyson's the type of guy who looks amazing against a punching bag... But when that punching bag starts punching back... That's a different story.

But consider this...

Alot of fighters look spectacular against punching bags...

Louis - Schmeling 2
Ali - Williams
Liston - Patterson
Demspey - Willard
Shavers/Cooney - Norton
Tua - Ruiz
Brewster - Golota

You can pull a huge list of fights from any era that ended up like these... And they weren't all graet fighters. Brewster sure as hell isn't.

Just because Tyson fought more punching bags than any champ in history... Does not make him spectacular.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 23 Nov 2006, 15:01

Tantum wrote:Mike Tyson's the type of guy who looks amazing against a punching bag... But when that punching bag starts punching back... That's a different story.

But consider this...

Alot of fighters look spectacular against punching bags...

Louis - Schmeling 2
Ali - Williams
Liston - Patterson
Demspey - Willard
Shavers/Cooney - Norton
Tua - Ruiz
Brewster - Golota

You can pull a huge list of fights from any era that ended up like these...

Just because Tyson fought more punching bags than any champ in history... Does not make him spectacular.

You call Schmeling, Patterson, Norton punching bags???

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 23 Nov 2006, 15:01

In those particular fights... They were. For whatever mental reason they decided to give up and revert to punching bags... When clearly they were at a level they could have fought competitive fights. (atleast a whole lot more competitive than they were)

Much like most of Tyson's opponents.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 23 Nov 2006, 18:12

Tantum wrote:Mike Tyson's the type of guy who looks amazing against a punching bag... But when that punching bag starts punching back... That's a different story.

But consider this...

Alot of fighters look spectacular against punching bags...

Louis - Schmeling 2
Ali - Williams
Liston - Patterson
Demspey - Willard
Shavers/Cooney - Norton
Tua - Ruiz
Brewster - Golota

You can pull a huge list of fights from any era that ended up like these... And they weren't all graet fighters. Brewster sure as hell isn't.

Just because Tyson fought more punching bags than any champ in history... Does not make him spectacular.

Some of those guys weren't 'punching bags'...Patterson was in against a guy who was just heads and tails better than he was...Schmeling just got blitzed by a very great (and vengeful) Joe Louis...Maybe, sometimes...a truly great fighter can make a good fighter look like a punching bag...I wouldn't argue about Tyson, though...

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 24 Nov 2006, 02:57

Tyson had no power, no speed, no stamina, no heart and would have been destroyed by any heavy from the golden era of boxing. He has aboslutely-defenitely-a positively no bussiness in the ATG.

Buster showed us that when he goes against a guy who ACTUALLY fights back he will lose.

with love Cultus

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 24 Nov 2006, 04:07

Caulk Rocket wrote: Ask Ali how he would have fought Mike. Ask George Foreman where he ranked Tyson all-time.

George Foreman is notoriously liberal with his praise for other heavyweights...

Ali in the same sentence with Tyson is a joke...

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 24 Nov 2006, 06:32

Caulk Rocket wrote:Let's say Tyson KO'd Douglas, Holyfield, Bowe and Lewis. He retires undefeated, maybe a loss or two.

That makes him possibly in the Top 5.

Tyson is 0-4 against the above mentioned foursome, Frans Botha only 0-1.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 24 Nov 2006, 07:56

Caulk Rocket wrote:
cultus wrote:Tyson had no power, no speed, no stamina, no heart and would have been destroyed by any heavy from the golden era of boxing. He has aboslutely-defenitely-a positively no bussiness in the ATG.

Buster showed us that when he goes against a guy who ACTUALLY fights back he will lose.

with love Cultus
Ask Ali how he would have fought Mike. Ask George Foreman where he ranked Tyson all-time.

I was jocking..

Tyson is nothing to people from Ali era. I even heard from an interview when Ali said about.. Tyson: (not quoted pin-point) "Well now theres Mike Tyson but he ain't no Muhammed Ali.

The praise of the 60'th era hW's has climbed into an ludicrous hights. And this forum of the past is all about that. Ali lost atleast two times against a medicore Ken Norton that would have not lasted two rounds against Tyson of the eighties.

Could Tyson have been the best ever?....

Re: Could Tyson have been the best ever?....

Re: Could Tyson have been the best ever?....