Calzaghe gives up IBF belt.

states · Post by **states** » 28 Nov 2006, 20:04

Max, your defence of Calzaghe is admirable. But surely, if we know the offer was out there, Joe did as well. Calzaghe should have said "OK, let's do it" and called any bluff. As it is, Calzaghe is just pissing people off.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 28 Nov 2006, 20:13

states wrote:Max, your defence of Calzaghe is admirable. But surely, if we know the offer was out there, Joe did as well. Calzaghe should have said "OK, let's do it" and called any bluff. As it is, Calzaghe is just pissing people off.

Yeah he should call Kessler's bluff but did Palle even have the balls to phone Warren up with the offer? He could be just taking advantage of Joe's problems with getting big fights and knows he can hype Kessler up more with that.

states · Post by **states** » 28 Nov 2006, 20:17

But my point is that 'Joe's problem with getting big fights' is down to Joe. If Palle was offering huge bucks, Joe should have said "where and when?" If Palle was hyping, Joe would have been able to call him on it. And if he wasn't, Joe would have had the big bucks.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 28 Nov 2006, 20:28

Aye I don't disagree with you.

I'm disappointed that he gave up the belt he won so spectacularly mostly.

He's giving these ridiculous Kessler fans more ammo though.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 28 Nov 2006, 20:47

states wrote:But my point is that 'Joe's problem with getting big fights' is down to Joe. If Palle was offering huge bucks, Joe should have said "where and when?" If Palle was hyping, Joe would have been able to call him on it. And if he wasn't, Joe would have had the big bucks.

The offer may be bogus to begin with. Why was there no report on Palle's official website?

Chances are that Calzaghe didn't even know of this "offer" It's not like he reads these rumours circling the internet.

states · Post by **states** » 28 Nov 2006, 21:49

But even if it was bogus, why did Calzaghe never mention Kessler? The chance was there to clean up the whole division. Let's not pretend that Manfredo means something when Kessler doesn't.

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 28 Nov 2006, 22:13

Taki... wrote:
hitman_hatton1 wrote:
Neri1983 wrote:Couldnt he have got the Stieglitz mandatory out the way instead of fighting Bika?
that's what pisses everyone off. :x

the chance to unify all 4 belts is worth keeping this ibf title.

usually i wouldn't mind the title being stripped.
Bollocks, half the titles knocking around aren't worth the imitation gold they're printed on. The IBF's supermiddle rankings are a joke!
The only thing having all 4 titles does is cost a boxer 4 times the sanctioning fee.

You're totally right, I haven't seen a sanctioning orgs top 15 look as dismal as the IBF's at this moment in time, in a good old while. Right now the WBO's list tops the IBF's as well:

1. Robert Stieglitz GER
2. Denis Inkin RUS
3. Allan Green USA
4. Carl Froch GB
5. Lucian Bute (Int-Cont) ROM
6. Jeff Lacy USA
7. Victor Oganov RUS
8. Cristian Sanavia ITA
9. Juergen Braehmer GER
10. Markus Beyer GER
11. Rudy Markussen DEN
12. Jean Paul Mendy FRA
13. Hector Velazco ARG
14. James Obede Toney GHA
15. Mger Mkrtchian ARM

Compared to the IBF's:

1 Robert Stieglitz IBF INTERCONTINENTAL CHAMPION Germany
2 Alejandro Berrio Colombia
3 Danillo Haussler Germany
4 Jeff Lacy United States
5 Luciene Bute France
6 Carl Froch
7 Dennis Inkin Germany
8 Sergey Tatevosyan Russian Federation
9 Jackson Chanet France
10 Rudy Markussen Denmark
11 Jurgen Brahmer Germany
12 Mario Veit Germany
13 Peter Manfredo, Jr. United States
14 Yusuf Mack USBA CHAMPION United States
15 David Gogiya Russian Federation

The WBO's top 3 are a considerable step up from the IBF's as well, at the moment. That being said Joe might as well have disposed of Stieglitz as opposed to Bika, Stieglitz would've been an even easier fight.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 29 Nov 2006, 05:04

But Axe, what people are saying is it doesn't matter who is in the WBO ratings. They don't enforce mandatories on Joe and if Warren and Enzo want to pick up a middleweight or a doorman from somewhere you can bet your house the WBO will quickly give him a ranking in the top 15. The IBF may be crap, they may have let Judah keep his title on a technicality, their rankings may seem a bit off but they will make Warren and the Calzaghe's make fights which they might not be keen on plus with purse bids Warren could lose out.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 29 Nov 2006, 08:15

Max Molyneux wrote:
states wrote:Max, your defence of Calzaghe is admirable. But surely, if we know the offer was out there, Joe did as well. Calzaghe should have said "OK, let's do it" and called any bluff. As it is, Calzaghe is just pissing people off.
Yeah he should call Kessler's bluff but did Palle even have the balls to phone Warren up with the offer? He could be just taking advantage of Joe's problems with getting big fights and knows he can hype Kessler up more with that.

Of course he sent Warren the offer, why wouldn't he have the balls to do so? He made the offer to Warren and then put it out in the press as far as I recall reading. Your defence of Calzaghe and Warren no matter what is bordering on the ridiculous now! Face it they are taking easy options all the time.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 29 Nov 2006, 08:19

Axe wrote:
Taki... wrote:
hitman_hatton1 wrote: that's what pisses everyone off. :x

the chance to unify all 4 belts is worth keeping this ibf title.

usually i wouldn't mind the title being stripped.
Bollocks, half the titles knocking around aren't worth the imitation gold they're printed on. The IBF's supermiddle rankings are a joke!
The only thing having all 4 titles does is cost a boxer 4 times the sanctioning fee.
You're totally right, I haven't seen a sanctioning orgs top 15 look as dismal as the IBF's at this moment in time, in a good old while. Right now the WBO's list tops the IBF's as well:

1. Robert Stieglitz GER
2. Denis Inkin RUS
3. Allan Green USA
4. Carl Froch GB
5. Lucian Bute (Int-Cont) ROM
6. Jeff Lacy USA
7. Victor Oganov RUS
8. Cristian Sanavia ITA
9. Juergen Braehmer GER
10. Markus Beyer GER
11. Rudy Markussen DEN
12. Jean Paul Mendy FRA
13. Hector Velazco ARG
14. James Obede Toney GHA
15. Mger Mkrtchian ARM

Compared to the IBF's:

1 Robert Stieglitz IBF INTERCONTINENTAL CHAMPION Germany
2 Alejandro Berrio Colombia
3 Danillo Haussler Germany
4 Jeff Lacy United States
5 Luciene Bute France
6 Carl Froch
7 Dennis Inkin Germany
8 Sergey Tatevosyan Russian Federation
9 Jackson Chanet France
10 Rudy Markussen Denmark
11 Jurgen Brahmer Germany
12 Mario Veit Germany
13 Peter Manfredo, Jr. United States
14 Yusuf Mack USBA CHAMPION United States
15 David Gogiya Russian Federation

The WBO's top 3 are a considerable step up from the IBF's as well, at the moment. That being said Joe might as well have disposed of Stieglitz as opposed to Bika, Stieglitz would've been an even easier fight.

If Calzaghe had beaten Stieglitz instead of Bika that would have removed both his mandatories as Stieglitz would drop out of the WBO rankings fighting an IBF title fight. What happens now if the WBO try and enforce a mandatory? Not likely I know but it must be due the second Veit fight was his last mandatory that was 18 months ago.

Wouldn't it be just like Calzaghe/Warren to beat Manfredo then say they have to fight Stieglitz after all to keep the WBO belt... I can well see that happening.

I will be near amazed if the talked about big fight in the US happens next, I just cant see it.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 29 Nov 2006, 08:55

If Calzaghe had beaten Stieglitz instead of Bika that would have removed both his mandatories

Shame Stieglitz's side didn't take it because of no German TV dates though.

Wouldn't it be just like Calzaghe/Warren to beat Manfredo then say they have to fight Stieglitz after all to keep the WBO belt... I can well see that

That would be madness but I can't see that happening. Stieglitz would rather go for the vacant IBF title.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 29 Nov 2006, 09:04

Bollocks Max if they'd let it go to purse bids and then Stieglitz didn't go through with it he'd lose his mandatory spot and Calzaghe would still have the IBF title.

But why go to purse bids and pay Stieglitz a fair amount of the pot when they can get Bika over here for peanuts and Calzaghe and Warren laugh all the way to the bank. Same old same old.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 29 Nov 2006, 09:05

nickd wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:
states wrote:Max, your defence of Calzaghe is admirable. But surely, if we know the offer was out there, Joe did as well. Calzaghe should have said "OK, let's do it" and called any bluff. As it is, Calzaghe is just pissing people off.
Yeah he should call Kessler's bluff but did Palle even have the balls to phone Warren up with the offer? He could be just taking advantage of Joe's problems with getting big fights and knows he can hype Kessler up more with that.
Of course he sent Warren the offer, why wouldn't he have the balls to do so? He made the offer to Warren and then put it out in the press as far as I recall reading. Your defence of Calzaghe and Warren no matter what is bordering on the ridiculous now! Face it they are taking easy options all the time.

Well it seems the offer was only posted on the internet, haven't seen nothing about the offer being sent to Warren or Calzaghe.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=8563&more=1

According to that Warren made an offer but Palle denies it and gets all worked up over an offer true or not?

It could just be a war of words at the moment.

I still reckon it could happen next year as this has happened with Joe before.

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-ne ... rk1604.php

They only just got a TV deal this year so who would be paying all that money to Joe to fight Kessler?

It wouldn't sell too much in Denmark it seems either if they can only sell 7000 tickets in a 42,000 seater staduim. Calzaghe can do 16,000 to 19,000 at the MEN so Kessler would be better off coming over here.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 29 Nov 2006, 09:09

Hearing that Manfredo isn't that huge so why HBO are preferring him I don't know though.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Nov 2006, 10:58

Max Molyneux wrote:
states wrote:Max, your defence of Calzaghe is admirable. But surely, if we know the offer was out there, Joe did as well. Calzaghe should have said "OK, let's do it" and called any bluff. As it is, Calzaghe is just pissing people off.
Yeah he should call Kessler's bluff but did Palle even have the balls to phone Warren up with the offer? He could be just taking advantage of Joe's problems with getting big fights and knows he can hype Kessler up more with that.

It remains obscure to me what point you are trying to make. The offer is out there, whether Palle rang Warren up or not.

USD 3.4 million. Far more than Calzaghe has ever made, also far more that he can expect to make in the US.

Evidently money is NOT the issue. Kessler is.

P

PS: for sure Warren hasn't made Palle an offer yet. If he had, why doesn't he make the terms public? Obviously because Palle could agree.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:00

nickd wrote:Bollocks Max if they'd let it go to purse bids and then Stieglitz didn't go through with it he'd lose his mandatory spot and Calzaghe would still have the IBF title.

But why go to purse bids and pay Stieglitz a fair amount of the pot when they can get Bika over here for peanuts and Calzaghe and Warren laugh all the way to the bank. Same old same old.

Don't forget -- they could have had Markus Beyer, but declined because Calzaghe allegedly couldn't make the suggested date.
Strangely Calzaghe fought Bika on exactly that date then.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:10

There was no way Warren was going to give Beyer that nice fat retirement fund payout though, not without Calzaghe taking an almightily thin end of the wedge.

Kessler was prepared to take the short end to build his profile.Calzaghe took the short end for the Lacy fight already, and was unlikely to take another pay cut.

I think therein lies the reason this fight never happened.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:12

nickd wrote:Bollocks Max if they'd let it go to purse bids and then Stieglitz didn't go through with it he'd lose his mandatory spot and Calzaghe would still have the IBF title.

But why go to purse bids and pay Stieglitz a fair amount of the pot when they can get Bika over here for peanuts and Calzaghe and Warren laugh all the way to the bank. Same old same old.

Nothing went to purse bids though.

Even if it did go to purse bids Calzaghe wouldn't go through with it either.

Stieglitz was offered the fight for October but claimed there was no TV dates for that night.

You yourself said a while back that Stieglitz probably wanted to wait till Calzaghe vacated the belt.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:16

jamesmcdonnell wrote:There was no way Warren was going to give Beyer that nice fat retirement fund payout though, not without Calzaghe taking an almightily thin end of the wedge.

Rather unlcear to me what thin edge of the wedge you're talking about. Beyer would have been a record purse for Calzaghe, too.

Besides, Warren explicitely said that it was the date, not the money, that prevented this fight from happening. Strangely though, they could fight Bika on that date for peanuts, but they could not fight Beyer for a record purse.

P

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:19

pundit wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:
states wrote:Max, your defence of Calzaghe is admirable. But surely, if we know the offer was out there, Joe did as well. Calzaghe should have said "OK, let's do it" and called any bluff. As it is, Calzaghe is just pissing people off.
Yeah he should call Kessler's bluff but did Palle even have the balls to phone Warren up with the offer? He could be just taking advantage of Joe's problems with getting big fights and knows he can hype Kessler up more with that.
It remains obscure to me what point you are trying to make. The offer is out there, whether Palle rang Warren up or not.

USD 3.4 million. Far more than Calzaghe has ever made, also far more that he can expect to make in the US.

Evidently money is NOT the issue. Kessler is.

P

PS: for sure Warren hasn't made Palle an offer yet. If he had, why doesn't he make the terms public? Obviously because Palle could agree.

How do you know Warren didn't make that offer and if he claimed to then why did Palle call his bluff as well instead of getting angry? You have double standards for Kessler though anyway.

That link said Palle denies it but he never tried to call Warren's bluff either. Before Lacy there was a British Boxing.net article about Warren trying to deal with Palle but they gave dodgey telephone numbers and there was no calling bluff then either.

I've only defended the offer, but I am disappointed that Joe's fighting Manfredo and giving up the belt he won so spectacularly. I think he should of fitted in Stieglitz as his last mandatory and Kessler to get rid of Andrade then fight each other, but unifications are not easy to make.

Wonder if Calzaghe's getting worse stick for not fighting Kessler than Jones did for not fighting DM.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:26

pundit wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:There was no way Warren was going to give Beyer that nice fat retirement fund payout though, not without Calzaghe taking an almightily thin end of the wedge.
Rather unlcear to me what thin edge of the wedge you're talking about. Beyer would have been a record purse for Calzaghe, too.

Besides, Warren explicitely said that it was the date, not the money, that prevented this fight from happening. Strangely though, they could fight Bika on that date for peanuts, but they could not fight Beyer for a record purse.

P

Are you saying Beyer's people offered a record purse? Fail to see that would have been possible, where would the money have come from to pay both Beyer and Calzaghe record purses?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:31

Max Molyneux wrote:
pundit wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote: Yeah he should call Kessler's bluff but did Palle even have the balls to phone Warren up with the offer? He could be just taking advantage of Joe's problems with getting big fights and knows he can hype Kessler up more with that.
It remains obscure to me what point you are trying to make. The offer is out there, whether Palle rang Warren up or not.

USD 3.4 million. Far more than Calzaghe has ever made, also far more that he can expect to make in the US.

Evidently money is NOT the issue. Kessler is.

P

PS: for sure Warren hasn't made Palle an offer yet. If he had, why doesn't he make the terms public? Obviously because Palle could agree.
How do you know Warren didn't make that offer and if he claimed to then why did Palle call his bluff as well instead of getting angry? You have double standards for Kessler though anyway.

That link said Palle denies it but he never tried to call Warren's bluff either. Before Lacy there was a British Boxing.net article about Warren trying to deal with Palle but they gave dodgey telephone numbers and there was no calling bluff then either.

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. What bluff is there to call if Warren hasn't made any terms public?
Warren could just say "OK I take the USD 3.4 billion, let's make the fight".
What could Palle say? OK, I take an offer that doesn't exist??

I've only defended the offer, but I am disappointed that Joe's fighting Manfredo and giving up the belt he won so spectacularly. I think he should of fitted in Stieglitz as his last mandatory and Kessler to get rid of Andrade then fight each other, but unifications are not easy to make.

I think one day also you will get this point: the unifications are "hard to make" because FWARREN DOESN'T WANT UNIFICATIONS. Also, Warren wants no Kessler, no IBF mandatories, no purse bids. The only unification he ever made was Lacy because everything there was on his terms, and Lacy was a taylor made opponent.

Max, you're maneuvering yourself into a sorry position here -- chief defender of FWarren's management of Joe's career. I personally think you should really try to avoid this, especially if you are a Calzaghe fan.

Wonder if Calzaghe's getting worse stick for not fighting Kessler than Jones did for not fighting DM.

If Calzaghe had fought the likes of Bernard Hopkins, James Toney and Virgil Hill in his career -- three sure HOFers -- I can assure you there would be far less criticism.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:46

Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. What bluff is there to call if Warren hasn't made any terms public?
Warren could just say "OK I take the USD 3.4 billion, let's make the fight".
What could Palle say? OK, I take an offer that doesn't exist??

Palle should of just called his bluff if it wasn't there then. Instead he angrily denies it. Yes Warren could do but you have double standards and bias for Kessler.

I think one day also you will get this point: the unifications are "hard to make" because FWARREN DOESN'T WANT UNIFICATIONS. Also, Warren wants no Kessler, no IBF mandatories, no purse bids. The only unification he ever made was Lacy because everything there was on his terms, and Lacy was a taylor made opponent.

Max, you're maneuvering yourself into a sorry position here -- chief defender of FWarren's management of Joe's career. I personally think you should really try to avoid this, especially if you are a Calzaghe fan.

Resorting to demeaning me is not going to get you anywhere. I defend Calzaghe but even I have shown disappointment with Calzaghe's current ,status you just post 100% Kessler bias and don't criticise Kessler for anything. He was nearly going to fight Tyspko!

Unless your a promoter who works with the sanctions, then how do you know unification are not hard to make? Plus Kessler's mandatory would be enforced too and he signed an agreement to fight Andrade.

Only you said Lacy was taylor made. Your wrong on most of the Lacy info as well, you said Lacy was handpicked but it was Lacy who pushed for the fight. Joe rightfully had to take a pay cut for pulling out too.

I personally think your pathetic, I'll post my opinions If I like, I'm not as bad as you even though I have been biased. Let me say this again I am disappointed he gave up his belt and didn't fit one more mandatory in and not too interested in Manfredo.

You seem to ignore things because I put a little defence in.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:49

If Calzaghe had fought the likes of Bernard Hopkins, James Toney and Virgil Hill in his career -- three sure HOFers -- I can assure you there would be far less criticism.

Toney couldn't fight at the weight by the time Calzaghe broke into world class, Hill was at Cruiserweight and Hopkins turned the fight down wanting more money.

As for Hopkins he might set his sights on Calzaghe still.

Hopkins defended his middleweight title a record 20 times

Bernard Hopkins has announced his intention to come out of retirement after just six months and challenge for a heavyweight world title.
Hopkins, who fought most of his career at middleweight, hung up his gloves after beating Antonio Tarver in a light heavyweight bout in June.
But the 41-year-old now wants to challenge for Oleg Maskaev's WBC title.
"I want to bring the heavyweight championship back to the United States," said Hopkins.
"I'm going to be the guy that everybody says preserved the reputation of the American fighter."
Hopkins said he presently weighs 180 pounds, 20 pounds above his middleweight fighting weight, but that he aims to add on 20 more in a little over a month.
"I plan on being a heavyweight by the end of the year," he said.
Hopkins successfully defended his middleweight title a record 20 times between 1995 and 2005, before losing a pair of controversial decisions to current champion Jermain Taylor.
If a fight with Maskaev does not materialise, Hopkins said he would turn his sights on Joe Calzaghe to prevent the Briton exceeding his string of title defences.
Calzaghe will equal Hopkins' tally of 20 successful defences if he beats Peter Manfredo in March. "If I can't make my history, then I can stop him making his history," said Hopkins.

nickd · Post by **nickd** » 29 Nov 2006, 11:50

Max the point he is trying to make is Jones fought all 3 of those Hall of Famers even though he didn't fight DM. What Hall of Famers has Calzaghe fought to lessen the blow of not fighting Kessler.... not one!